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Sounded like maybe he was already a huge dickwad.
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May 8, 2014 08:06
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Recently I've been influenced by the humanism of Ludwig Feuerbach and the young Marx. Can anyone recommend any sci-fi with a humanist bent? A canticle for leibowitz, perhaps?
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May 8, 2014 12:15
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Chairchucker posted:Sounded like maybe he was already a huge dickwad. Yeah, the fedora-tipping wasn't promising. Regarding reading books by idiots who are terrible people, then I do not see this as a dilemma. You can read someone's books and not support their writing career by giving them money. I will not let the fact that some person is/might be a terrible person stop me from reading good or interesting literature. Hell, I read Lovecraft all the time, for example. What I will however do is avoid giving that person money. Go to the library. Buy books second hand for cheap, perhaps from a charity/really cool local bookshop. Pirate digital copies.  It's maybe not much of a solution - I mean, I am still taking part in having these jackasses being read authors, it's not perfect. But fiction is fiction and people are people. I don't like the thought of limiting my reading material if I believe there is really something there worth seeking out. Often the fiction is as bad as the people writing it, and then I don't bother reading more. Sometimes it's not. I'd hate to miss out on a great story just because the rear end in a top hat that wrote it was an rear end in a top hat. There's plenty of stuff out there that's great and not written by assholes, sure, but I feel that if I let this stop me that the assholes have somehow won.
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May 8, 2014 12:25
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coyo7e posted:This reminded me that I'd been meaning to check out Goblin Quest by Jim C Hines. Chairchucker posted:Sounded like maybe he was already a huge dickwad. Bolverkur posted:It's maybe not much of a solution - I mean, I am still taking part in having these jackasses being read authors, it's not perfect. But fiction is fiction and people are people. I don't like the thought of limiting my reading material if I believe there is really something there worth seeking out. Often the fiction is as bad as the people writing it, and then I don't bother reading more. Sometimes it's not. I'd hate to miss out on a great story just because the rear end in a top hat that wrote it was an rear end in a top hat. There's plenty of stuff out there that's great and not written by assholes, sure, but I feel that if I let this stop me that the assholes have somehow won.
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May 8, 2014 12:46
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I like to read great stories by decent or better people, thanks. On that note, I hear N. K. Jemisin just announced a sequel trilogy to her Inheritance trilogy. Yay!
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May 8, 2014 12:50
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I finished VanderMeer's Authority, and I have to admit I am disappointed. It feels like I could summarise this book into about two sentences. Not a lot happens and not a lot is explained. The protagonist didn't really grab me, either. With such little substance, VanderMeer's prose, meant to evoke a feeling of the surreal, was merely tedious. I enjoyed Annihilation a hell of a lot more. I'll read Acceptance, of course, and I hope for better.
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May 8, 2014 14:56
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neongrey posted:On that note, I hear N. K. Jemisin just announced a sequel trilogy to her Inheritance trilogy. Yay! No, wait *** Character feels thing. Character says thing. It's super distracting, and if the whole book is going to be like this, I'm not going to read the trilogy.
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May 8, 2014 15:12
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Chairchucker posted:Sounded like maybe he was already a huge dickwad. It's a common symptom of being born again. Some people feel like they have to follow the Bible to the letter or they're letting God down after he was good enough to cure their atheism.
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May 8, 2014 15:19
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Jedit posted:It's a common symptom of being born again. Some people feel like they have to follow the Bible to the letter or they're letting God down after he was good enough to cure their atheism. But what I'm saying is that it didn't sound like he was very pleasant while he was an atheist.
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May 8, 2014 15:24
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Cardiovorax posted:I wish people like you would just stop posting justifications already. If you don't care enough to stop reading people like this guy because it's not like their hate speech is directed at you, then fine, it's not like anyone can make you. But at least stop loudly pretending. I don't feel like that's the case at all. People that bring up that justification because they admit that the author's views are deplorable but hey maybe their writing is good enough that they're comfortable with separating the art from the artist (as long as it's in a way that also separates giving money to said artist, of course  )
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May 8, 2014 16:14
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Cardiovorax posted:I just finished those a while ago and I recommend them. Not as cleverly comedic as, say, Pratchett, but I was entertained all the way through. No, the reason I'm not going to stop reading his work is because he writes entertaining stuff, not because his hate speech isn't directed at me, dickhead.
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May 8, 2014 18:03
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Yes, I'm sure that's just a happy coincidence.
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May 8, 2014 18:24
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I don't think it's too crazy of a notion that there are some authors with lovely beliefs that write well enough that they're still worth reading.
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May 8, 2014 18:30
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Srice posted:I don't think it's too crazy of a notion that there are some authors with lovely beliefs that write well enough that they're still worth reading. I dislike a whole bunch of Airport fiction writers beliefs but I enjoy reading the silly books they write.
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May 8, 2014 19:04
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Srice posted:I don't think it's too crazy of a notion that there are some authors with lovely beliefs that write well enough that they're still worth reading. Yeah. Sean Connery is fine with beating women, that doesn't make Prince of Thieves a bad movie. That said, since SFF is intrinsically political (you are envisioning the world how it could be, which automatically incorporates a whole range of ideas into it) so it is much less likely I will enjoy it, and behavior harassing your fellow professionals for being different is completely out of line.
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May 8, 2014 19:26
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Yay! Just got approved for 2 E-arcs! I love netgalley 
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May 8, 2014 19:49
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Neurosis posted:No, the reason I'm not going to stop reading his work is because he writes entertaining stuff, not because his hate speech isn't directed at me, dickhead. Then have the courage to admit that your need to be entertained outweighs any compunction you may have against giving bigots a soapbox, because every single time you pick up one if their books, whether you paid for it or not, you are telling that bigot, "Say whatever hateful poo poo you want, just make sure I'm entertained first." Most authors are not in it for money, they want to share their ideas with you, so reading but not paying for a hatemonger's book doesn't accomplish anything because you are still remaining receptive to some of their ideas. That makes them think you're receptive to all their ideas.
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May 8, 2014 19:51
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Ornamented Death posted:Then have the courage to admit that your need to be entertained outweighs any compunction you may have against giving bigots a soapbox, because every single time you pick up one if their books, whether you paid for it or not, you are telling that bigot, "Say whatever hateful poo poo you want, just make sure I'm entertained first." But what about cases where said views aren't being worn on the author's sleeve in their works? Not every SFF book is explicitly pushing an author's agenda. Obviously there are a lot of exceptions but it's not a rule that's set in stone. I don't know about this Wright fellow since I haven't read any of his stuff but for an example, have someone read Ender's Game without knowing about OSC's views on gays and see how that goes
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May 8, 2014 20:04
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Srice posted:But what about cases where said views aren't being worn on the author's sleeve in their works? Not every SFF book is explicitly pushing an author's agenda. Obviously there are a lot of exceptions but it's not a rule that's set in stone. In my view, it has less to do with what any individual work is saying and more to do with the height of the soapbox an author's body of work builds. OSC would be just another loon ranting about gays if he hadn't sold millions of books. But because he has, he gets to spew his vile opinions on any number of prominent outlets.
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May 8, 2014 20:12
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Ornamented Death posted:Then have the courage to admit that your need to be entertained outweighs any compunction you may have against giving bigots a soapbox, because every single time you pick up one if their books, whether you paid for it or not, you are telling that bigot, "Say whatever hateful poo poo you want, just make sure I'm entertained first." I guess you don't like the Game of Thrones books? I think in his personal life GRRM isn't in favor of child murder or rape, he just tends to write about things like that. Or is it OK for authors that are decent human beings to write about hateful stuff? Is it only what the author doesn't write about that you're leaving yourself receptive to when you read a book?
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May 8, 2014 20:12
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RVProfootballer posted:I guess you don't like the Game of Thrones books? I think in his personal life GRRM isn't in favor of child murder or rape, he just tends to write about things like that. Or is it OK for authors that are decent human beings to write about hateful stuff? Is it only what the author doesn't write about that you're leaving yourself receptive to when you read a book? I don't think you could have missed my point any harder if you tried.
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May 8, 2014 20:20
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Ornamented Death posted:I don't think you could have missed my point any harder if you tried. Haha, I tried!
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May 8, 2014 20:24
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I really regret even bringing this stupid poo poo up again now, because I'm really not trying to actively poo poo this thread up. It's just so loving aggravating to keep reading over and over. It must be really nice to afford being able to not care about this sort of poo poo. I don't get that kind of choice. You get to congratulate yourself on being able to "separate the art from the artist" while I get to live with the consequences of these artists maligning me in public and their inability to separate their opinions about me from my right to live however I loving want to, all while giving money to organizations whose only and express purpose is to keep me from ever being happy by having any kind of public presence, ability to marry or getting to adopt children. Do you know what it's like to be worried about walking through parts of your own hometown for fear of slipping and being consequently beaten up and lynched because people like Wright and Card dedicate their lives to poisoning public opinion against you for the crime of existing? Do you know how often I've been assaulted personally by people who listen to people like Wright talk and nod? But hey, at least you get your petty little five hours of entertainment. It's just words, after all. Excuse me for being a bit bitter about that. What does a dickhead like I know, anyway.
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May 8, 2014 20:26
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Cardiovorax posted:I really regret even bringing this stupid poo poo up again now, because I'm really not trying to actively poo poo this thread up. It's just so loving aggravating to keep reading over and over. It must be really nice to afford being able to not care about this sort of poo poo. I don't get that kind of choice. You get to congratulate yourself on being able to "separate the art from the artist" while I get to live with the consequences of these artists maligning me in public and their inability to separate their opinions about me from my right to live however I loving want to, all while giving money to organizations whose only and express purpose is to keep me from ever being happy by having any kind of public presence, ability to marry or getting to adopt children. Do you know what it's like to be worried about walking through parts of your own hometown for fear of slipping and being consequently beaten up and lynched because people like Wright and Card dedicate their lives to poisoning public opinion against you for the crime of existing? Do you know how often I've been assaulted personally by people who listen to people like Wright talk and nod? This is important and true. And if you're a writer in science fiction and fantasy - say, you're NK Jemisin - you face a professional life that brings you into constant contact with people who do not believe you are fully human. That creates a chilling effect across the whole scene that could well push writers from marginalized groups to do something less infuriating. The ability to think of the author as separate from the work, to say 'it doesn't matter what they think, I just read the books for entertainment', is not equally distributed.
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May 8, 2014 21:28
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Ornamented Death posted:In my view, it has less to do with what any individual work is saying and more to do with the height of the soapbox an author's body of work builds. OSC would be just another loon ranting about gays if he hadn't sold millions of books. But because he has, he gets to spew his vile opinions on any number of prominent outlets. So, to be morally sound you have to vet every musician, actor, director and producer for distasteful opinions in order to avoid being morally complicit, whether or not it appears in said person's work, because by consuming his or her works you add to his or her fame?
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May 8, 2014 21:36
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Yes, and this thread is incapable of talking about scifi/fantasy without this discussion re-occurring every 30 or so pages.
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May 8, 2014 21:37
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systran posted:Yes, and this thread is incapable of talking about scifi/fantasy without this discussion re-occurring every 30 or so pages. Given that this discussion is happening every day - and quite spectacularly! - within the SF/F arena, that seems wholly appropriate. If anything we could stand to talk about it more.
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May 8, 2014 21:40
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Neurosis posted:So, to be morally sound you have to vet every musician, actor, director and producer for distasteful opinions in order to avoid being morally complicit, whether or not it appears in said person's work, because by consuming his or her works you add to his or her fame? No, but once they start using their fame to spread their horrible opinions, you should probably feel morally compelled to stop contributing to that fame. Or keep at it, after all you're only looking for a bit of entertainment, it doesn't matter (to you) where it comes from!
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May 8, 2014 21:49
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I personally would just like more discussion of it in the form of: "Here is this book I read by an author who explores COOL IDEA OR CONCEPT THAT PUSHES SOCIAL NORMS AND DOES NOT ADVOCATE RIGHT-WING FANATIC RACIST/SEXIST WORLDVIEWS, I like it because..." I didn't want to read any Sanderson in part because he was a Mormon, but I had watched all of his Youtube lectures about writing fantasy/scifi novels. I finally started reading one of his books and I don't much care for it. Since I lean very left-wing and think Mormonism is generally a corrupt institution that I don't want to support or help be seen as legitimate, is it hypocritical or wrong of me to learn anything from him? I didn't think I'd like his writing, and it turns out I don't, but should I not even read it? I've tried to talk about Maureen F. McHugh in this thread. She writes about gay protagonists, sexism, what it's like to be an illegal immigrant, and how culture reinforces and affects these things--all within rich near-future worlds. No one really wanted to discuss her, but people loving love to post factoids about terrible opinions various lovely authors have, or get on a soapbox about how dare you read this person's book. I don't know that I disagree with the sentiment...why support someone like Orson Scott Card in any way whatsoever? Still though, I think there is so much room in this thread to like...find a cool story on Clarke's World or a novel you read that addressed important issues in a positive way, then discuss them. People seem to really like the meta-discussion that steps outside of discussing the actual works, so if everyone is cool with that , whatever, but it kills the thread for me. angel opportunity fucked around with this message at 21:56 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 21:54
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General Battuta posted:Given that this discussion is happening every day - and quite spectacularly! - within the SF/F arena, that seems wholly appropriate. If anything we could stand to talk about it more. Maybe creating a separate thread for it would be better then? This thread is great for lurking to get leads on good SF/F books to read when it actually stays on topic and about books, but it's turning more and more into D&D instead of TBB. It's fine to want to have political discussions, but you're driving out actual literary discussion which if I'm not mistaken this subforum is actually about and what I and presumably most others come here to read.
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May 8, 2014 21:54
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General Battuta posted:This is important and true. And if you're a writer in science fiction and fantasy - say, you're NK Jemisin - you face a professional life that brings you into constant contact with people who do not believe you are fully human. That creates a chilling effect across the whole scene that could well push writers from marginalized groups to do something less infuriating. less laughter posted:Maybe creating a separate thread for it would be better then? This thread is great for lurking to get leads on good SF/F books to read when it actually stays on topic and about books, but it's turning more and more into D&D instead of TBB. It's fine to want to have political discussions, but you're driving out actual literary discussion which if I'm not mistaken this subforum is actually about and what I and presumably most others come here to read.
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May 8, 2014 22:05
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The thread is still 99% just talking about loving sci-fi and fantasy books. I don't think it's hurting anything when a page or two of this 101 page thread veer into talking about the SF/F writing community.
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May 8, 2014 22:07
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systran posted:cool ideas I'd totally get behind putting more energy into pointing out positive, awesome authors. Join me in posting recs for women authors when the thread fills up with two pages of grimdark fantasy by white men!
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May 8, 2014 22:21
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General Battuta posted:I'd totally get behind putting more energy into pointing out positive, awesome authors. Join me in posting recs for women authors when the thread fills up with two pages of grimdark fantasy by white men! Or you could just recommend books based on their literary quality instead of because of the writer's gender or race, which is pretty insulting and condescending? If N.K. Jemisin had been a white man, her books would suddenly not be worth recommending? I'm pretty sure she would want you to recommend her to others (if at all) based on the quality of her books and not her gender or race, even if only used as a first sifting, and doing so anyway only proves you have actually learned and/or understood absolutely nothing from the books you have read.
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May 8, 2014 22:39
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less laughter posted:Or you could just recommend books based on their literary quality instead of because of the writer's gender or race, which is pretty insulting and condescending? If N.K. Jemisin had been a white man, her books would suddenly not be worth recommending? I'm pretty sure she would want you to recommend her to others (if at all) based on the quality of her books and not her gender or race, even if only used as a first sifting, and doing so anyway only proves you have actually learned and/or understood absolutely nothing from the books you have read. I think we've shot down this point a few times before, but I'm too lazy to look back through the thread and link one of those posts. The short version is this: by correcting for the internal and systemic prejudices that make books by white men more visible, you help steer the discussion back towards the very egalitarian norm you're advocating. Google up a few scientific studies on what happens when a selection process - whether for jobs, tenure positions, or, yes, even book recommendations - is left intentionally 'blind'; in practice it is anything but. It's like disabling an airplane's control surfaces and calling that 'flying': you're just leaving your course up to the prevailing winds. When your car drifts left, you need to steer right. When genre conversation is dominated by white men, you need to point out that very good books - books of, exactly as you said, literary quality - are also written by other people. Your whole objection is based on the false supposition that we want to recommend books 'because of the writer's gender or race', rather than 'awesome books, by people the system has been designed to ignore'.
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May 8, 2014 22:52
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General Battuta posted:I think we've shot down this point a few times before, but I'm too lazy to look back through the thread and link one of those posts. Nobody gives a poo poo and few want to read this, go back to dnd  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 8, 2014 23:13
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General Battuta posted:When your car drifts left, you need to steer right. I'm guessing it doesn't snow much where you live because this is exactly wrong. You turn into the skid. Anyone read Scalzi's Lock In yet? Apparently it came out last fall, I just noticed because of his prequel novella. Synopsis looks very different from his usual stuff. What are thoughts?
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May 8, 2014 23:17
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Iseeyouseemeseeyou posted:Nobody gives a poo poo and few want to read this, go back to dnd The fact that this conversation happens in this thread over and over suggests people actually do want to read this and have this discussion.
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May 8, 2014 23:17
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Fried Chicken posted:I'm guessing it doesn't snow much where you live because this is exactly wrong. You turn into the skid. Haha, I'm from Vermont, I was wondering if anyone would call me on that. But the point stands! (And you steer right if you're in a crosswind pushing you left, or your car's just really lovely )Bizob posted:The fact that this conversation happens in this thread over and over suggests people actually do want to read this and have this discussion. This is also an ongoing conversation among SF/F authors, and I think it's more and more something we think about when we write. I know it's central to my writing.
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May 8, 2014 23:19
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Bizob posted:The fact that this conversation happens in this thread over and over suggests people actually do want to read this and have this discussion. I'm not in this thread to read your armchair analysis of authors. e: mistook you for another based on av Iseeyouseemeseeyou fucked around with this message at 23:30 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 23:23
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