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Beamed posted:This is actually the case; apparently the only developer who knew how it worked left, and so Paradox doesn't really know how to take it from there. Not true. Several knows.. Just that its too loving impossible to balance as a gamemechabic.
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May 8, 2014 19:53
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:No, but technically it would make his job (which appears to be working with modders) far easier when modders ask him something and he doesn't have to go bothering every other employee just to get an answer if he doesn't know the code like the back of his hand. (and since you just hired him a few months ago, this might [or might not] be the case) No, it wouldn't. He reads C++ code to determine how triggers/effects work.
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May 8, 2014 19:54
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DStecks posted:I never said they were. Your argument against documentation is that nobody will ever read it. I counter that modders are clamoring for documentation. You say that Paradox doesn't make decisions based around modders (though you phrased it as another hyperbolic strawman), and I countered that hiring a mod manager indicates that Paradox makes at least some decisions based on modders. My argument was no such thing. Perhaps you wouldn't think my argument was a strawman if you actually read what I wrote, which was to point out that Podcat was answering a post about our internal workings - not the modder documentation post your seemed to think he was, rather than imagining things?
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May 8, 2014 19:55
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Zerf posted:I would rather see that we took the time to put up an official wiki for our games(and especially modders) which everyone could contribute to, both internally and externally. Devoted players and modders could make a wiki much more thorough, complete and up-to-date than we ever could by trying to to shoe-horn in documentation duties alongside someones regular work. That would be a pretty terrible idea, since there's already 2 different CKII wikis. This one is my go-to modding reference, but it's pretty woefully incomplete. Zerf posted:No, it wouldn't. He reads C++ code to determine how triggers/effects work. Or he could compile documentation and then release it so he wouldn't have to field those questions at all!
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May 8, 2014 19:56
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I do have to say, probably my favorite thing about PDS (besides making games that I've wasted thousands of hours of my life on over the past decade) is that not just one, but four PDS devs have posted in the past few pages, including the Lead, and actively engage with us even when we're being confrontational neckbeards. And you guys responded to a tweet of mine earlier, so I got that goin' for me. 
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May 8, 2014 19:59
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DStecks posted:Or he could compile documentation and then release it so he wouldn't have to field those questions at all! He will probably post some documentation further down the line(don't know what he has done so far). But again, he has a far more important job, and that is to make sure triggers and effects follow the exact same pattern, so you don't need to read the documentation. 
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May 8, 2014 20:01
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Zerf posted:He will probably post some documentation further down the line(don't know what he has done so far). But again, he has a far more important job, and that is to make sure triggers and effects follow the exact same pattern, so you don't need to read the documentation. That's very good to hear, but I don't completely understand what you mean by "so I don't need to read the documentation". Having the script calls be consistent is obviously needed, but it doesn't help if the problem is that I don't know what all of the triggers and effects are.
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May 8, 2014 20:04
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DStecks posted:That's very good to hear, but I don't completely understand what you mean by "so I don't need to read the documentation". Having the script calls be consistent is obviously needed, but it doesn't help if the problem is that I don't know what all of the triggers and effects are. And that connects back to what podcat said: podcat posted:Hence, documentation generated from code is fine, hoping someone remembers (or has time) to update some other documents nobody ever reads is just dumb.
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May 8, 2014 20:09
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podcat posted:Everyone can read code  This.... is not the norm in most studios!
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May 8, 2014 20:14
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Zerf posted:And that connects back to what podcat said: A program to create documentation from code is an excellent idea, but podcat only said it was being implemented for HOI4. And it only matters to me if said documentation (or at least the modder-relevant parts) are made public.
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May 8, 2014 20:17
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Whatever point that was trying to be made has been lost in the previous posts slapping at each other's code cred. While I like giving the devs a hard time every once in a while let's try not to make them regret actively participating in the thread.
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May 8, 2014 20:41
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Lum_ posted:
He exaggerates though. We got som artists & qa who cant. But if you cant read code, you should never be involved in game design.
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May 8, 2014 20:48
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I used to know how to make the turtle write my name in Logo on the C64.  So, I think it's time I threw my hat in this here ring...
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May 8, 2014 20:56
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Zerf posted:No, it wouldn't. He reads C++ code to determine how triggers/effects work. I do think people have a point when calling for some documentation in this area, though. For example, it's completely clear how to add an effect for rebel government changes when they enforce their demands - but it's a black box as to exactly what happens then. So Paradoxscript is generally clear (although there are some inconsistencies *cough*technologies.txt*cough*land/naval units*cough*) but it would be nice to get a complete description of what exactly certain effects do, or how exactly certain triggers/conditions are calculated. Unless you want to give us that part of the source  It's been a while since I've C++'d but I cut my teeth on it so I'll never forget my way around it.
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May 8, 2014 21:13
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When will Paradox games take the step to accurately portray the political and cultural mechanics of the Eurovision Song Contest?
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May 8, 2014 21:31
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I am now imagining a Paradox game where Perlese uprisings against the C# tyrants are a thing.
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May 8, 2014 21:45
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DStecks posted:And I'm not disagreeing that it should be, in a perfect world, which is why I asked if Paradox employs rigorous coding standards; because only with that can code truly be self-documenting in a team environment. Munin posted:You're better off making sure that you set up solid guidelines about how you want things named and structured (which some people will also try and rebel against but...). Yup. Rigid coding standards are crazy important, and there's nothing I check harder in code reviews than that. Makes me feel like a bit a jerk sometimes, but that's how the new guys learn. Munin posted:Likewise, I have yet to see any internal documentation project which didn't fall apart in an order of months if it even managed to get a full set of initial documentation together in the first place. Yuuuuuuuuuup. Cantorsdust posted:And modders don't get to see the code behind each callable function. They need actual documentation. But this is super true, customer facing documentation is key. To the point where at our company, we would rather muck up the actual functionality and write some convoluted code than to change the message structures we use, because changing them fucks all our customers over. You could probably get into endless debates about whether the modding community should actually be considered a customer for Paradox, but I would argue that they are.
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May 8, 2014 22:03
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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EightDeer posted:I am now imagining a Paradox game where Perlese uprisings against the C# tyrants are a thing. No, C# is a cultural union of all programming languages.
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May 8, 2014 22:07
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Shouldn't C be the cultural union? Also, I just remembered DDRJake mentioning that there was a music DLC for EU3 called Music of the World, which I believe was originally created for
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May 8, 2014 22:24
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While we have developer attention, is an update for the CK2 to EU4 converter coming out any time soon? I kind of lost momentum in my last CK2 game when I realized that I wouldn't be able to convert to EU4 like I had hoped.
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May 8, 2014 23:44
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PittTheElder posted:Shouldn't C be the cultural union? It was originally created for Magna Mundi, and it wasn't waldetoft, but it is great. So great that I just lifted it from EU3 and stuck it into my EU4 music folder.
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May 8, 2014 23:49
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Cantorsdust posted:While we have developer attention, is an update for the CK2 to EU4 converter coming out any time soon? I kind of lost momentum in my last CK2 game when I realized that I wouldn't be able to convert to EU4 like I had hoped. You're in luck!
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May 8, 2014 23:54
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Patter Song posted:It was originally created for Magna Mundi, and it wasn't waldetoft, but it is great. So great that I just lifted it from EU3 and stuck it into my EU4 music folder. Yeah, I'm going to go do the exact same thing I think.
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May 8, 2014 23:55
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podcat posted:In a perfect world yeah. We generally just beat QA with baseball bats instead lol quote:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?766339-PDS-This-is-PATHETIC&p=17170245&viewfull=1#post17170245
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May 9, 2014 01:31
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pdxjohan posted:He exaggerates though. We got som artists & qa who cant. I've just got a picture of Johan sitting in the studio matrix style watching code float down the screen 'redhead, panzer, viking, comet sighted' Isn't the HOI4 DD due today?
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May 9, 2014 01:54
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Yeah as of HoD I don't really think it's fair to say that V2's economy is impenetrable anymore. With a(lot) of time and effort you can figure out almost all the systems and how they work(granted this requires digging through old forum threads for effort posts and sometimes extrapolating for patches/expansions). The real problem is simply scale. Things can happen to completely shift the economy because one country that happens to supply a huge portion of X to the world economy has had some sort of crisis and is sitting with a ton of empty RGOs. When you look at the trade screens and such you can see the effects of this, and it's easy to assume that the economy is just being weird because short of looking around and seeing that this country has stopped working and knowing that said country was the prime source of X you really can't tell. The systems are all there and they all(probably) work, the problem is simply that there are so many countries and so many trade goods and so many pops that things inevitably go wrong somewhere and there's no easy way to pinpoint what. It really is amazing that they've managed to fine tune it so that it works as incredibly well as it does now, and there really is no real way to make it much better without redesigning it like they say. It's not exactly a system conductive to bug testing either, what with it being so hard to tell if something is a bug or just the effect of something happening somewhere that you won't know about without looking for it(and knowing what to look for and that you need to be looking for something).
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May 9, 2014 09:13
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V for Vegas posted:I've just got a picture of Johan sitting in the studio matrix style watching code float down the screen Yes: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?774778-Hearts-of-Iron-IV-Development-Diary-4-Production-Lines
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May 9, 2014 10:30
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Darkrenown posted:Yes:
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May 9, 2014 11:15
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Darkrenown posted:Yes: I presume you get events which can shift you increasingly towards a war economy as you appropriate an increasing amount of manufacturing capacity to produce war materiel s opposed to consumer goods?
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May 9, 2014 11:55
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I like it. Making things like tanks and planes require resources means you can make them more cost-effective than their raw IC-cost would otherwise indicate. I like the idea of equipment being separate from the unit it's in, so you can do things like take all the tanks the French have attached to their infantry divisions and make an armoured division out of them. I wouldn't have minded seeing some subdivision in the military factories, though. It would be good to have small arms, heavy arms (vehicles, arty) and aircraft factories instead of just lumping them all in together. Splitting dockyards off is a good first step, though, and it may well be that in practice you never have the resources to make all your military factories produce aircraft anyway. I also love the look of the UI. Seeing that a hundred Churchills are flowing to the frontline units per month feels very WW2 to me. Gort fucked around with this message at 12:02 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 11:59
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Munin posted:I presume you get events which can shift you increasingly towards a war economy as you appropriate an increasing amount of manufacturing capacity to produce war materiel s opposed to consumer goods? Well, not events, but there'll be a system like that. Gort posted:I wouldn't have minded seeing some subdivision in the military factories, though. It would be good to have small arms, heavy arms (vehicles, arty) and aircraft factories instead of just lumping them all in together. Splitting dockyards off is a good first step, though, and it may well be that in practice you never have the resources to make all your military factories produce aircraft anyway. I kind of agree, it was something we talked about and ultimately decided on not going too far with it though. I don't think we need it, but I do love me some detailed production.
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May 9, 2014 12:58
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Spreading out your IC in all your high infrastructure provinces always seemed like the best thing to do in HOI2 and 3. I think having your factories spread out would be a massive strain on your transport capacity or whatever it's called now. A. IRL one factory doesn't just make everything, some make parts and these parts need to be shipped to the assembly lines. This causes delays, the only way to avoid delays would be to have a sufficiently large train/truck infrastructure to cover the distance. B. The finished war materiel needs to get to the front, and its heavy. Building 10 railways to different provinces with one factory each is much more expensive than 1 railway to 10 different factories in a location. It should be a bad idea unless you are supremely worried about strategic bombing or have sufficient infrastructure to support your factories being all over the place, at which point your infrastructure becomes the target of bombing. It should be ideal for production purposes to clump your factories in places of high infrastructure.
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May 9, 2014 13:57
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PhantomZero posted:Spreading out your IC in all your high infrastructure provinces always seemed like the best thing to do in HOI2 and 3. I think having your factories spread out would be a massive strain on your transport capacity or whatever it's called now. Depends, you can easily justify 2 factory pips in bumfuck nowhere as supplying the local garrisons and such. The 10 industry pip provinces are building planes and tanks, the rest are just making uniforms and spare parts. What you could do is remove the abstract nature of industry and instead force you to place them in specific places. So if you want to build ships you need a large industry in your coastal provinces, along with large naval bases. The same goes for plane factories and you could make a case for military training bases. Basically you could do something along the lines of Victoria where units are built with trade goods and you need to build more than just supplies to support them. Demiurge4 fucked around with this message at 15:25 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 15:23
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Darkrenown posted:Yes: I like it a lot. Can't wait for the inevitable mods that add in every obscure piece of German technology and complaints on the forum that the system is broken because people can't produce enough tanks because they keep squandering their IC on amphibious Flame Tanks. Can you run several production lines of the same equipment, i.e. 2 lines of Shermans with 15 factories each?
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May 9, 2014 20:25
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ArchangeI posted:Can you run several production lines of the same equipment, i.e. 2 lines of Shermans with 15 factories each? Yeah this is my question also. I liked all of it but the "you can only assign 15 factories to a production" part. If I want to be the Arsenal of Democracy as the USA and pump out tanks and guns at ridiculous rates, can I still do that?
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May 9, 2014 20:34
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ArchangeI posted:I like it a lot. Can't wait for the inevitable mods that add in every obscure piece of German technology and complaints on the forum that the system is broken because people can't produce enough tanks because they keep squandering their IC on amphibious Flame Tanks. The mod I was thinking of was to have production lines that cover uniforms, boots, ball bearings, separate lines for rifles vs sidearms vs machine guns, and so on. But of course, that's all meaningless if HOI 4 doesn't have an infrastructure model that will cover the inability of the German rail net to ship winter clothing to the Heer before the snows of 1941 hit.
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May 9, 2014 20:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:The mod I was thinking of was to have production lines that cover uniforms, boots, ball bearings, separate lines for rifles vs sidearms vs machine guns, and so on. Does MOTE accurately simulate Napoleon's buttons?
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May 9, 2014 20:42
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I've been in the mood lately to give Vic2's Divergences mod a shot, but it's built off the PDM mod, which I'm not a fan of at all. In an effort to make Divergences worth my time, I've been stripping away some of PDM's more obnoxious elements. For now, that means I'm in the process of reverting the resource and factory model back to the vanilla setup. Someone on reddit also mentioned that changes to dig-in bonuses mean that combat is very favorable for defenders, so I'll do some cleaning in defines.lua as well, but beyond that I'm sort of at a loss. For anyone here who's tried PDM (preferrably the HoD version), are there any other particularly frustrating changes that you noticed while playing?
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May 9, 2014 20:42
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Doctor Schnabel posted:I've been in the mood lately to give Vic2's Divergences mod a shot, but it's built off the PDM mod, which I'm not a fan of at all. In an effort to make Divergences worth my time, I've been stripping away some of PDM's more obnoxious elements. For now, that means I'm in the process of reverting the resource and factory model back to the vanilla setup. Someone on reddit also mentioned that changes to dig-in bonuses mean that combat is very favorable for defenders, so I'll do some cleaning in defines.lua as well, but beyond that I'm sort of at a loss. Does PDM still have the weird extra military unit types that don't actually work? I'd strip any combat changes if they are still there.
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May 9, 2014 20:43
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Cantorsdust posted:Does PDM still have the weird extra military unit types that don't actually work? I'd strip any combat changes if they are still there.
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May 9, 2014 21:07
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