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Serious Frolicking posted:In short, jesus loving christ Satou. Get help. I'm not sure if "being a right-wing jackass who dehumanizes foreigners" really counts as a mental illness. edit: I was just wondering something. Will the writer of an LN that is adapted into an anime like this benefit significantly financially from the adaptation? I'm sure they do pretty well, but is it the sort of thing that would actually make them rich? Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:35 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 00:30
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Srice posted:I can't speak about the nationalistic messages since it's mainly in the stuff posted in this thread that hasn't happened in the anime yet, but the idea that rich people work hard and deserve their money, and that poor people are just lazy is definitely pushing an objectivist message. He didn't really say "the poor are lazy", just that those who aren't as rich are being manipulated into thinking there's a magic conspiracy to keep them down.
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May 10, 2014 00:44
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Ytlaya posted:edit: I was just wondering something. Will the writer of an LN that is adapted into an anime like this benefit significantly financially from the adaptation? I'm sure they do pretty well, but is it the sort of thing that would actually make them rich? Unless it sells like hotcakes, not bloody likely. I mean, everybody and their dog thought that Nisio Isin was an unstoppable money-making machine, but then came the Medaka Box anime and it apparently had numbers so goddamn abysmal that it killed any other chance for a 3rd season. Of course, since most* animes exist there to basically advertise the manga/novels/game, if it helped the manga / novels (such as in this case) to sell better, then I guess there is that. Also, I'm pretty sure somebody explained a few weeks (months, maybe?) how most anime is funded by committee. *The exceptions being Original Projects like Cowboy Bebop, Darker Than Black and so on.
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May 10, 2014 00:52
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He doesn't specifically say that word for word, but it is absolutely an implication of his speech. Heck, I posted those lines earlier in the thread! Even if you take it at face value and ignore the obvious implications, the message is still "the poor are idiots who would rather spend their time listening to rhetoric about why it's not their fault that they're poor instead of working hard to become rich". It's basically the same message that a ton of right-wing pundits espouse, with a little less sugarcoating. Srice fucked around with this message at 00:59 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 00:54
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I know, and as I said, they were incriminating out of context or if you were told beforehand about how it must be the intended implications.Srice posted:Even if you take it at face value and ignore the obvious implications, the message is still "the poor are idiots who would rather spend their time listening to rhetoric about why it's not their fault that they're poor instead of working hard to become rich". That's making it into a generalization. Tatsuya wasn't talking about all non magicians, or even any necessarily truly "poor" people. It's doubtful Sayaka, for instance, is "poor" in the sense that she's got serious financial troubles or lives in a very low income household.
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May 10, 2014 01:01
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I wasn't told beforehand of the "intended" implications. I came to that conclusion by myself. The friend I was watching this with also came to that conclusion. Several other people in this thread came to that conclusion without hearing about that interpretation. I don't think it's a coincidence that a ton of people here and elsewhere have interpreted that speech in the same very specific way. Heck, if I saw that speech without the context of the show I'd still think it was a right-wing rant. The context just makes it waaaaay worse when you learn how much of a cartoonish strawman the terrorists are (and yet even then, they're way more sympathetic than our "hero").
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May 10, 2014 01:04
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I can see why someone would, but I think it's jumping to conclusions for now. If anyone is interested, there are special short videos called Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei: Yoku Wakaru Mahouka that explains things in the series. There are currently three episodes right now. In the first, the discrimination is outright called "blatant classism". Granted, Miyuki then goes on to say "How dare my brother, who is unparalleled at academia, the arts, and magic, be compared to the plants in our garden?" and has a magic tantrum, but right after Tatsuya comments that the system might reflect the pride of those with gifted talents, and Miyuki says "Children, do not let your pride turn you into a self righteous, inconsiderate little mongrel".
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May 10, 2014 01:24
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WickedHate posted:Granted, Miyuki then goes on to say "How dare my brother, who is unparalleled at academia, the arts, and magic, be compared to the plants in our garden?" and has a magic tantrum, but right after Tatsuya comments that the system might reflect the pride of those with gifted talents, and Miyuki says "Children, do not let your pride turn you into a self righteous, inconsiderate little mongrel". Isn't this like saying "Sure, some people are flat-out better and more talented than others, but they shouldn't be inconsiderate or self-righteous because of it!" This makes me think of people who say "_____ isn't racist because not *all* black people in it are bad/dumb! Maybe it's just a coincidence that most of the black people in it are portrayed negatively!" edit: I don't know if I said this earlier in this thread, but while this show isn't "so bad it's good," I do have to admit that it's "so bad it's interesting."
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May 10, 2014 02:32
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All of the oppressed aren't portrayed negatively. Mizuki, Erika, and Leo, the other main characters aside from the siblings, are all Course 2. And, again, the discrimination between students is treated as horrible.
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May 10, 2014 02:46
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So I caught ep.5 of this show because it really is strangely fascinating in how nationalistic it is. It's practically American. Anyway, I've got a few things I noticed and questions that may have been answered already in this libertarian infodump thread: 1)Why was Mibu embarrassed by the suggestion to increase faculty or whatever? Were this Higurashi or some bumfuck town like that, I could understand, but this is the biggest, richest Magic School in Japan. The hell? 2)I loved the reaction shot of the Course 2s at the debate when the class prez went on her big speech. They are LITERAL idiots. 3)Loved the prez's speech by the way. Don't use violence and just work within the system, regardless of how much is stacked against you. Malcolm X was literally the devil according to her*. 4)I also love the implication that "Weed" is the literal "W" word in this (school)universe 5)I still think glasses girl is the best character, but god, her Tatsuya is so great speech nearly killed it for me. 6)Finally, was Tatsuya literal defense over why the school shouldn't change "As long as I can study research papers, I'm fine. Maybe you should deal with it too" Like, he literally was born into a rich-rear end family with a super-magic bloodline and already has literal superpowers. And the only reason he doesn't want to help out the other weeds is that he already knows what he needs to and just wants to study? This is past FYGM, it's "gently caress you for not being born in the right family shitlord" *On a sidenote, Miyuki or w/e is supposed to be the literal most beautiful character in the show, but she's so drat plain it doesn't come through. The prez makes me think of a Clamp character and I really like the design.
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May 10, 2014 05:28
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WickedHate has single handedly made this show worthwhile.
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May 10, 2014 05:55
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Postal Parcel posted:1)Why was Mibu embarrassed by the suggestion to increase faculty or whatever? Were this Higurashi or some bumfuck town like that, I could understand, but this is the biggest, richest Magic School in Japan. The hell? The reason is basically "because you should shut up and be a nice little cog in the machine. The system is perfect and only you have a problem with it so maybe you should just shut up and not bother important people with your useless bullshit."
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May 10, 2014 07:37
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Postal Parcel posted:1)Why was Mibu embarrassed by the suggestion to increase faculty or whatever? Were this Higurashi or some bumfuck town like that, I could understand, but this is the biggest, richest Magic School in Japan. The hell? Postal Parcel posted:
That's not what she said at all. The disgruntled Course 2 students didn't really know how they wanted to change the system in the first place. She's for changing it. The discrimination between Course 1 and Course 2 students is not presented as a good thing and is argued against.
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May 10, 2014 13:27
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Postal Parcel posted:1)Why was Mibu embarrassed by the suggestion to increase faculty or whatever? Were this Higurashi or some bumfuck town like that, I could understand, but this is the biggest, richest Magic School in Japan. The hell? Depends upon what answer you want for 1). The author clearly doesn't think much of teachers, so that's the real reason. The LN's claim is, well, nobody loving wants to be a teacher. There's a character the author introduces later on who was some brilliant university research scientist that pissed off his bosses, so he got shunted into shitsville of teaching brats how to use magic instead of doing what he wanted to do. Oh and there's nine other schools with the exact same structure. So yeah, but the author having issues with teachers is probably the biggest one. As for 6), did you really think it would be that simple? C'mon, this is a crazy nationalist spiel by someone who clearly hates the establishment he currently lives in. Gary Stu was treated as a literal scientific guinea pig by his rich rear end family because he wasn't good at magic in the way that they think is being good at magic. And also treated as a servant/slave for the same reason. The only reason he has money and the freedom to do whatever the gently caress he wants currently is a) he is Wizard God that nobody in his family can control even though they don't even consider him a mage and b) libertarian spiel remember? He has used his massive brainpowers to ~bootstrap~ a research division of his father's company from being laughable rejects to generating at least a third of their profits. So in other words it's less "gently caress you for not being born into the right family" and more "gently caress you for not being born a god" but then again he literally can't give a gently caress about other people's suffering so it falls flat.
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May 10, 2014 14:06
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SorcerousHam posted:So in other words it's less "gently caress you for not being born into the right family" and more "gently caress you for not being born a god" but then again he literally can't give a gently caress about other people's suffering so it falls flat. I have no idea why you think Tatsuya is a sociopath. The magic experiments carried out on Tatsuya is obviously evil and shady, too.
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May 10, 2014 14:18
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Postal Parcel posted:3)Loved the prez's speech by the way. Don't use violence and just work within the system, regardless of how much is stacked against you. Malcolm X was literally the devil according to her*. Actually it's even better than that! Her speech was more or less "stop using slurs and everything will be okay". As we all know, if white people were banned from using the n-word, racism would instantly be over and nobody would have to sit on a different spot on a bus or anything. She'd be against MLK as well; let's remember that earlier in that episode she talked about how the people being discriminated against should just use rational arguments instead of emotional arguments. How dare they get emotional about being oppressed! (Heck, come to think of it, she would think Rosa Parks was also pretty terrible as well. How *dare* she act out against the system?) Srice fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 10, 2014 |
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May 10, 2014 14:51
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The student discrimination was the only one going on though. There wasn't an official system of oppression from the school.
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May 10, 2014 15:04
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Well, Mayumi does change the system in some ways. However, those changes only ever benefit Tatsuya. One guy from course 2 does get promoted to course 1, but apparently that was the first and only time it had ever happened. Kendo girl gets a boyfriend. Erika and Leo focus on the martial arts side and being Tatsuya's lackeys, neither of which is really covered by the school curriculum so their course is largely irrelevant. Everyone else in course 2 simply comes to accept their station in life, squarely under all of the
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May 10, 2014 15:51
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Serious Frolicking posted:Well, Mayumi does change the system in some ways. However, those changes only ever benefit Tatsuya. One guy from course 2 does get promoted to course 1, but apparently that was the first and only time it had ever happened. Kendo girl gets a boyfriend. Erika and Leo focus on the martial arts side and being Tatsuya's lackeys, neither of which is really covered by the school curriculum so their course is largely irrelevant. Everyone else in course 2 simply comes to accept their station in life, squarely under all of the Yeah I was basically ignoring the other changes she brings forth because helping a few specific people isn't the same as helping the group as a whole 
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May 10, 2014 15:54
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Serious Frolicking posted:However, those changes only ever benefit Tatsuya. One guy from course 2 does get promoted to course 1, but apparently that was the first and only time it had ever happened. First of all, that's the whole point of Course 2, to have reserves in case Course 1 students burn out and can't do magic anymore. More importantly, I don't know about Tatsuya being made Course 1, but eventually they are able to change the system in place and make the student council capable of having Course 2 members. Serious Frolicking posted:Erika and Leo focus on the martial arts side and being Tatsuya's lackeys, neither of which is really covered by the school curriculum so their course is largely irrelevant. Serious Frolicking posted:Everyone else in course 2 simply comes to accept their station in life, squarely under all of the They are not actually below them though. The discrimination is a result of the students treating them as inferior, which is unambiguously presented as wrong.
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May 10, 2014 15:59
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Course 1 students are equal to course 2 students, but some are more equal than others~
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May 10, 2014 16:04
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If course 2 students are just as good as course 1 students, then why aren't they in course 1? After all, look at all of these course 1 students who aren't from powerful wizard families, like ______, ______, and even ______. Also, I just now realized how bizarre that there is only one guy who moved from course 2 to course 1 in the history of the school. The course 2 students are explicitly there to be replacements for course 1 burnouts. That's the entire reason for the divided student body, and it was never put into practice. Oh, and that one guy? He was from a powerful wizard family, but was stuck in a long slump that Tatsuya pulled him out of.
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May 10, 2014 16:18
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I guess if you take the military metaphor since that's what will happen with a lot of them, you could say that the course 2 students are army reserves or something. But, uh, that kinda falls apart when you consider that even they get some training because it'd be incredibly dumb to send untrained soldiers out to fight. It would make sense if the course 1 students were taking advanced classes, as opposed to course 1 students getting the privilege to actually take classes, period.
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May 10, 2014 16:23
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Srice posted:Course 1 students are equal to course 2 students, but some are more equal than others~ Placement is only about who scored the best on tests.
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May 10, 2014 16:29
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WickedHate posted:Placement is only about who scored the best on tests. Oh, and what's this? Those who scored best on tests just so happen to be magical thoroughbreds from privileged backgrounds? Eugenics are awesome.
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May 10, 2014 16:31
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Serious Frolicking posted:If course 2 students are just as good as course 1 students, then why aren't they in course 1? After all, look at all of these course 1 students who aren't from powerful wizard families, like ______, ______, and even ______. Well Erika is kinda from an important family and is a course 2 student. Then again from what I remember from the novels she is a bastard . Other than that there is only Tatsuya which is already explained by him sucking at conventional school taught magic and applications in favor of his godlike power so the pool of examples is kinda shallow. On the whole hard work speech, I understood it in a way that he was saying people get payed more because their work is more valued which in case of magic usually trumps non-magicians. Now his following explanation that there are magicians that despite working hard don't earn as much as other magicians because their specific talent has hardly any value is kinda moot since that the case how it usually is. So in summarization I think he just said that Magicians work just as hard as regular people and their bigger paycheck comes from their work being more valueable for society. Now you can be against it but that's pretty much how things work in our society as well. Unless of course I completely misunderstood things which may or may not have happened. Serious Frolicking posted:Oh, and what's this? Those who scored best on tests just so happen to be magical thoroughbreds from privileged backgrounds? Eugenics are awesome. Well if your family is that prestigeous you're probably getting home-schooled by some pretty important/strong people so it kinda gives you in advantage in standard tests. Although I agree that some example of the opposite would be nice.
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May 10, 2014 17:03
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Thank you. I will say, though, not meaning to be contrarian, that it is stated magic is inherited so I don't know if it's just an opportunity thing. Other then that thank you so much for explaining it better then I could.
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May 10, 2014 17:30
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CVE posted:So in summarization I think he just said that Magicians work just as hard as regular people and their bigger paycheck comes from their work being more valueable for society. Now you can be against it but that's pretty much how things work in our society as well. Haha what, no it isn't. Our society isn't anything even remotely approaching a meritocracy. If you think it is, then you must also think that the huge discrepancy between the income and wealth of white and black people is that white people are just more valuable to society.
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May 10, 2014 20:01
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Ytlaya posted:Haha what, no it isn't. Our society isn't anything even remotely approaching a meritocracy. If you think it is, then you must also think that the huge discrepancy between the income and wealth of white and black people is that white people are just more valuable to society. You're comparing it to race, but it's more about jobs, and not in the billionaire range. An electrician makes a lot of money, but they aren't held in high regard. Magicians happen to luckily fall into a balance of "well respected" and "highly valuable".
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May 10, 2014 20:06
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It's not *literally* about race, but it's a nice parallel for a comparison, simply because it's a close real world thing to compare it to. Bonus points because we have a conflict literally driven by discrimination! Or, to put it another way, are aliens in fiction just aliens?
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May 10, 2014 20:09
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Is this a 13 or 24 episode series? I'm just giving up entirely until its finished. It's just so goddamn boring and everything mentioned from the LN sounds way more fun to hate watch instead of this boring slow-paced poo poo.
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May 10, 2014 20:11
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pentyne posted:Is this a 13 or 24 episode series? I'm just giving up entirely until its finished. It's just so goddamn boring and everything mentioned from the LN sounds way more fun to hate watch instead of this boring slow-paced poo poo. The LNs are 13 volumes and counting, and it looks like we're still on volume 2. And it looks like it's gonna be 26 episodes. Which means that at this terrible pace, they would need to make another season to cover just the stuff that's already out. I feel like it's really worth pointing out that Gundam Unicorn managed to fit 2 volumes into its first episode (albeit a 50 minute episode). They trimmed all the superfluous stuff and you honestly wouldn't know they fit that much unless you checked it out. Just a neat little fact. (Of course, Unicorn is the exception because it's a rare case of a studio realizing that adapting a work doesn't mean transferring it 1:1)
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May 10, 2014 20:15
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Srice posted:It's not *literally* about race, but it's a nice parallel for a comparison, simply because it's a close real world thing to compare it to. Bonus points because we have a conflict literally driven by discrimination! Sure, sometimes. A cigar is just a cigar as often as not.
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May 10, 2014 20:36
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Ytlaya posted:Haha what, no it isn't. Our society isn't anything even remotely approaching a meritocracy. If you think it is, then you must also think that the huge discrepancy between the income and wealth of white and black people is that white people are just more valuable to society. Of course other stuff influences it as well unfortunately but at least part of it is based on the "estimated value" of their work to society. Even if it were a complete meritocracy we still would probably lose something else for it. It's never as easy as it seems and I apologize if I offended anyone with my carelessly chosen words and naivety about that part of society/ talking about it in a black and white fashion WickedHate posted:You're comparing it to race, but it's more about jobs, and not in the billionaire range. An electrician makes a lot of money, but they aren't held in high regard. Magicians happen to luckily fall into a balance of "well respected" and "highly valuable". "Well respected" they don't seem to be all that much to be honest. It's more like they fear their power which is why they have the "agreement" that the Ten Master Clans don't meddle in politics (who am I kidding of course they do below the surface).
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May 11, 2014 00:50
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CVE posted:Of course other stuff influences it as well unfortunately but at least part of it is based on the "estimated value" of their work to society. Even if it were a complete meritocracy we still would probably lose something else for it. It's never as easy as it seems and I apologize if I offended anyone with my carelessly chosen words and naivety about that part of society/ talking about it in a black and white fashion It's not so much that it's offensive; it's more that "being like the real world" isn't exactly a good way to defend the series against much of what people are saying in this thread. Actually, the fact that a lot of the ideology in the show mimics reality is probably the main reason why people are noticing it and calling it out in the first place. We recognize that the opinions and rationale expressed by Tatsuya is similar to that used by right-wing people in the real world.
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May 11, 2014 00:58
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Ytlaya posted:It's not so much that it's offensive; it's more that "being like the real world" isn't exactly a good way to defend the series against much of what people are saying in this thread. Actually, the fact that a lot of the ideology in the show mimics reality is probably the main reason why people are noticing it and calling it out in the first place. We recognize that the opinions and rationale expressed by Tatsuya is similar to that used by right-wing people in the real world. I guess that's true. The right-wing rational I strongly noticed is the whole deal about Tatsuya that kinda makes him an "Ubermensch" and even though his lack of emotions (as in can't feel any strong emotions, so he can like someone but not love; dislike someone but not hate them) barring for his sister is represented as a bad thing it never really seems to be a disadvantage for him so in the end he looks like the perfect soldier only loyal to his master (in this case his sister).
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May 11, 2014 01:25
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CVE posted:
Well, there's a level of "spectacular coolness" that doesn't come with a lot of high paying, needed jobs in real life like plumbers or oil rig workers.
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May 11, 2014 01:29
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Ah, apparently there's a new episode! At least it had a couple decent fight scenes? The "what you thought was discrimination really wasn't!" thing with Mibu is a really lame way to avoid having to actually address a serious issue. edit: vvvvv As has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread, it was the author's choice to have "a bunch of people are upset about discrimination but they're actually mistaken and it's not a major issue" as part of the story he wrote. As a somewhat (but not very) exaggerated analogy - just so the point is clear - it's like if you wrote a story where a bunch of people are angry about perceived discrimination towards black people, despite said discrimination not actually existing (or being exaggerated), and use that to manipulate them into committing acts of terrorism. What you're doing is sort of like someone saying "well, in the story they really aren't unfairly discriminated against!" You can't completely isolate a work from the society and political climate in which it was created. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:31 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 02:45
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Not really because there wasn't an issue to begin with, aside from what was addressed.
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May 11, 2014 02:59
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A misunderstanding. It was all a loving misunderstanding. Hahaha. Oh this is great. Oh this is fantastic. "I caused the school to be invaded by terrorists over a misunderstanding" Excellent. I want to see how the author tops this. This is the laziest loving way to resolve a subplot. And yet...I get the feeling I'm going to be wrong  And we get a shot of Miyuki's imagination spot where she and Tatsuya are naked. Greeeeeeaaat. EDIT:Oh man this author just doesn't let up. It's not over until the one who is wrong is reduced to tears and begging Tatsuya the Seer of Planes for forgiveness. Seraphic Neoman fucked around with this message at 05:23 on May 11, 2014 |
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May 11, 2014 05:13
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