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One interesting thing about the Clone Wars is that, while it's the only non-movie piece of the EU that's being ruled still canon, it has things from the voided EU in it that now get to stay canon. Like Dathomir being a place and having witches on it (though they don't ride Rancors). I want to say there were more (like looking into the planet and the Quarren and Mon Calamari politics, that I think was only ever brought up in the EU) but I'm blanking on any other big examples.
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May 9, 2014 15:33
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thrawn527 posted:One interesting thing about the Clone Wars is that, while it's the only non-movie piece of the EU that's being ruled still canon, it has things from the voided EU in it that now get to stay canon. Like Dathomir being a place and having witches on it (though they don't ride Rancors). I want to say there were more (like looking into the planet and the Quarren and Mon Calamari politics, that I think was only ever brought up in the EU) but I'm blanking on any other big examples. Quinlan Vos.
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May 9, 2014 16:36
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Decius posted:Eh, I might not be a fan of the Mortis stuff, but at least it isn't some world building breaking poo poo like Flow Walking or the Sun Crusher. Clone Wars does a good job of fleshing out the world between AotC and RotS without going overboard (mostly). I don't know, I think having a magic planet inside a space pyramid where a holy family controls the entire Force isn't too far off from Flow Walking in terms of silly Force stuff that doesn't fit into the themes of the movies.
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May 10, 2014 02:10
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Chairman Capone posted:I don't know, I think having a magic planet inside a space pyramid where a holy family controls the entire Force isn't too far off from Flow Walking in terms of silly Force stuff that doesn't fit into the themes of the movies. Considering Anakin Skywalker literally had a virgin birth, him meeting a magic divine trinity isn't really out of place.
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May 10, 2014 02:12
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ImpAtom posted:Considering Anakin Skywalker literally had a virgin birth, him meeting a magic divine trinity isn't really out of place. If it turned out the Mortis Father was actually Anakin's Force daddy, then I think that would have made those episodes far more interesting. Actually, one of the big complaints I had with the Plageuis novel is that it rejects the pretty broad hint from ROTS that Plagueis directly created Anakin through his Force experiments. I actually think an earlier version of the ROTS script might have even stated it explicitly?
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May 10, 2014 02:27
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Chairman Capone posted:I don't know, I think having a magic planet inside a space pyramid where a holy family controls the entire Force isn't too far off from Flow Walking in terms of silly Force stuff that doesn't fit into the themes of the movies. Agreed. I don't care how good or bad the arc is on its own, but the idea that this is now part of How The Force Works is ominous to me. Hopefully now that Lucas is largely out of the picture, authors will know better than to explore it. Troy Denning is the only one who played with Mortis outside the Clone Wars afaik(?) and we haven't heard any sign he's involved in the new wave yet. And even if the roots were there (I've been having an unpleasant realization of how many Christian tropes are recycled in Star Wars lately) in the OT, and got a lot worse in the PT, that doesn't mean having Mortis in the canon isn't a bad sign. It's not just the Mortis arc, either - don't forget the stupid Yoda arc in season 6. Is it too much to ask for writers to grow out of this junk?
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May 10, 2014 05:22
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I've long taken Lucas's "planned from the beginning" statements as a general CYA. I can't think of many other franchises with such a big target and ripe for accusations of stealing. On one hand, it seems kind of tame in today' world where, say, JK Rowlings was able to continue writing Harry Potter books without such accusations (to my knowledge), but since the release of Star Wars, Lucas was accused of ripping off sources like Dune and Jack Kirby's New Gods. While such claims are ridiculous at surface-level inspection, I'm sure the threat was financially irritating enough to start "I always had this planned out" statements.
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May 10, 2014 18:45
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Megachile posted:Troy Denning is the only one who played with Mortis outside the Clone Wars afaik(?) and we haven't heard any sign he's involved in the new wave yet. A few other EU works have mentioned the Force family in very generalized terms. I know some of Luceno's stuff has the "Winged Goddess" and "Fanged God" (or something like that) as Force deities worshiped on Dathomir. But that's general enough I can handle it. Cheesus posted:On one hand, it seems kind of tame in today' world where, say, JK Rowlings was able to continue writing Harry Potter books without such accusations (to my knowledge), but since the release of Star Wars, Lucas was accused of ripping off sources like Dune and Jack Kirby's New Gods. While such claims are ridiculous at surface-level inspection, I'm sure the threat was financially irritating enough to start "I always had this planned out" statements. Rowling had a few "rip-off" accusations early on, but the only one that comes to mind at the moment is Neil Gaiman's "The Books of Magic". But anyway while I think saying that Lucas ripped of stuff like Dune and Foundation is being hyperbolic, I also think that it's clear he took inspiration from them, and that's not a bad thing. Star Wars began as an homage to the early golden age sci-fi pulp space opera, and it calling back to its sources of inspiration is fine, IMO. Especially since there's no direct stuff like actual planets named Trantor or Arrakis or Barsoom (though I think EU writers have done all of those). I think the claims that Lucas was directly ripping off stuff came much later, and I think reflects a shift in fandom and society in general.
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May 10, 2014 19:36
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Chairman Capone posted:Rowling had a few "rip-off" accusations early on, but the only one that comes to mind at the moment is Neil Gaiman's "The Books of Magic". The other ones that I remember were The Worst Witch series, some of the early Pratchett's (mostly the witch books), stuff by Diana Wynne Jones, and of course that author that sued her for the use of the word "muggle". On an unrelated note, I've just started listening to the Thrawn Trilogy audiobooks while at work. It's been a while since I've read them, but they seem to holding up pretty well.
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May 10, 2014 22:14
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So I started reading Scoundrels today. Did Tim Zahn actually make a "Han Shot First" joke???
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May 11, 2014 09:13
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Ensign_Ricky posted:So I started reading Scoundrels today. I think it's a cardinal rule of the EU that any Han-centric EU novel has to reference him shooting first. Seriously. Every post-Special Edition novel starring Han references that at some point.
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May 11, 2014 09:18
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Chairman Capone posted:Rowling had a few "rip-off" accusations early on, but the only one that comes to mind at the moment is Neil Gaiman's "The Books of Magic". And fandom being its own blessed self, Gaiman's had accusations that "Books of Magic" ripped of "Harry Potter".
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May 11, 2014 09:45
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Leospeare posted:And fandom being its own blessed self, Gaiman's had accusations that "Books of Magic" ripped of "Harry Potter". Apparently Pratchett was accused of ripping off Hogwarts when he wrote about Unseen university as well...
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May 11, 2014 21:40
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Beardless posted:Apparently Pratchett was accused of ripping off Hogwarts when he wrote about Unseen university as well... Well, Ponder Stibbons does look like Mid-Life-Crisis-Mode Harry Potter... I can see how idiots might get confused.
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May 11, 2014 22:50
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cptn_dr posted:Well, Ponder Stibbons does look like Mid-Life-Crisis-Mode Harry Potter... I can see how idiots might get confused.  I really want another light novel art book like The Last Hero now  .
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May 11, 2014 23:14
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A new colleague I work with is called Saba. I keep on subconsciously adding Sebatyne as her surname. drat YOU EU. 
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May 12, 2014 13:57
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Yorkshire Tea posted:A new colleague I work with is called Saba. Ah yes, Wild Knights Squadron, where somehow Y-wings and T-65 X-wings were able to contribute to the war effort against the Yuuzhan Vong.
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May 12, 2014 17:13
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Yorkshire Tea posted:A new colleague I work with is called Saba. Two ways to tell if she's really Saba: 1) Doezzz zheee talk like thizzzz? 2) Is she a ridiculous Mary Sue? (Note: May only apply if her life is being written by Troy Denning)
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May 12, 2014 23:34
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So I bought a copy of I, Jedi used a while ago and just got around to reading it. Do we have any idea what they were thinking when they published it? I get the impression they were deliberately retconning something from Jedi Academy (which I only know from summaries)? Was there really a time when Corran Horn was so popular he warranted a nearly 600-page glamour piece? I know a lot of you love the X-wing series (I read it when I was very young and don't remember it much); is Stackpole's writing much better in his contributions there?
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May 13, 2014 05:31
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Part of I, Jedi was also that it was made to tie-in with Zahn's two Bantam finale books (and a planned comic that they were supposed to co-write but got canceled). But yeah, it's a slog.
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May 13, 2014 05:40
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Megachile posted:So I bought a copy of I, Jedi used a while ago and just got around to reading it. Do we have any idea what they were thinking when they published it? I get the impression they were deliberately retconning something from Jedi Academy (which I only know from summaries)? Was there really a time when Corran Horn was so popular he warranted a nearly 600-page glamour piece? I know a lot of you love the X-wing series (I read it when I was very young and don't remember it much); is Stackpole's writing much better in his contributions there? That. So much. Jedi Academy was terrible, and whatever Stackpole's failings, he did as good a job as anyone could have in redeeming those books.
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May 13, 2014 06:25
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dublish posted:That. So much. Jedi Academy was terrible, and whatever Stackpole's failings, he did as good a job as anyone could have in redeeming those books. Are you saying they retconned away how much it sucked? That would be wonderful.
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May 13, 2014 21:18
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Megachile posted:Are you saying they retconned away how much it sucked? That would be wonderful. I, Jedi is like 70% Corran Horn saying "no, that's retarded" about the Jedi Academy trilogy.
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May 13, 2014 21:31
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Megachile posted:So I bought a copy of I, Jedi used a while ago and just got around to reading it. Do we have any idea what they were thinking when they published it? I get the impression they were deliberately retconning something from Jedi Academy (which I only know from summaries)? Was there really a time when Corran Horn was so popular he warranted a nearly 600-page glamour piece? I know a lot of you love the X-wing series (I read it when I was very young and don't remember it much); is Stackpole's writing much better in his contributions there? Megachile posted:Are you saying they retconned away how much it sucked? That would be wonderful. I, Jedi has its own plot, but a lot of it is an exercise in "remember that dumb thing that KJA wrote? Well, actually Corran was there and he made it happen less stupidly." Apparently they wouldn't let Stackpole actually get rid of stuff like the Sun Crusher, Kyp, and the overall impact of the Jedi Academy books on the galaxy, but what I, Jedi doesn't retcon it criticizes through Corran's actions and dialogue. I know a 600 page book all about Corran Horn isn't really a thrilling read but if you've ever suffered through the Jedi Academy books it's worth it. If not, probably not. Stackpole's X-Wing books are better but Corran is still the same boring dude; there's a lot more space fighting, which is one of Stackpole's better areas as an author.
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May 13, 2014 22:37
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Megachile posted:Are you saying they retconned away how much it sucked? That would be wonderful. "Redeemed" might have been too strong a word, but like Preechr said, a huge part of [I]I, Jedi[/] is spent filling in plot holes from Anderson's books, showing things that are going on behind the scenes and such. E: ^
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May 13, 2014 22:38
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I'm probably late to the party with this, but I'm currently working my way through the Revan novel by Drew Karpyshyn, and I can't help but shake my head at how badly handled everything is. My initial guess was that the writer had never even played the games the book is based, on but then I found out he was actually the head writer for the first game. I don't get how he could establish Bastila as a strong-willed woman who had trouble controlling her passion, then write her as virtual furniture here. I'm not sure she did anything sit on a couch and watch TV. Or write Jolee Bindo as a renegade jedi who thinks the council are a bunch of fools, then write him out of the book by saying he can't be trusted not to tattle on Revan. But since he couldn't be bothered to write his own characters consistently, I shouldn't have been surprised he did much, much worse with the KotoR 2 material. The Exile was just a normal jedi who regained her powers, Darth Nihilous doesn't exist cause only THE EMPEROR has ever sucked the life out of a planet, Kreia was just some Sith the Exile killed, HK-47 can't be trusted not to open fire into crowds instead of being a precision instrument, and going to a place cut off from the Force is apparently enough to make the Exile of all people flip out. Seriously, it almost comes across as malicious how much stuff gets retconned here. I haven't finished the book, or played the MMO, but I have read the spoilers and it's just sad how it all ends up. All the build up of Revan being a strategic genius who became a villian to the galaxy in order to save it is completely squandered. He was just mind-controlled by the new badass Emperor into attacking the Republic. No depth to his motivations, or complexities to his philosophy like Kreia speculated. He was just mind-controlled into evil. Then apparently, he ends up on Star Forge 2.0 planning genocide until killed by players as a low level raid boss. Seriously? P.S. Lord Scourge's name is ridiculous even by Star Wars standards.
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May 15, 2014 09:46
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You have to remember, this is post Dragon Age: Origins Bioware. They couldn't write a coherent story even if someone handed them the completed manuscript and told them to print it.
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May 15, 2014 15:33
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Also Drew Karpyshyn isn't exactly a paragon of writing. Even by Star Wars standards.
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May 15, 2014 17:32
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Canemacar posted:I'm probably late to the party with this, but I'm currently working my way through the Revan novel by Drew Karpyshyn, and I can't help but shake my head at how badly handled everything is. My hypothesis is that Drew Karpyshyn's story is a microcosm of Lucas'. I have no evidence for this at all, is pure speculation. He was part of the team that did the amazing writing for KOTOR, but he got his name associated with the product that many other, better writers largely created. After the game got so popular and well-regarded, his name got cred for that and so he went on to write other things without the benefit of good editors and other writers. And apparently it worked for LucasBooks - as awful as the Darth Bane trilogy is, a lot of people seemed to like them. Karphysyn himself co-wrote the Jedi Knight class storyline, which is the sort of main traditional hero/war plot, and literally every arc is saving a planet from a superweapon. It's like they thought that was the Knight's job, what a bounty or a cargo was to a bounty hunter or smuggler. And of course, it ends with the PC killing the Emperor with the help of Lord Scourge, who, like Revan and the Emperor, survived for 300+ years through a magical Plot Device. I spoiler tag for courtesy, but seriously, it's not worth playing unless you're a diehard completist. 
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May 15, 2014 20:11
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Canemacar posted:Seriously, it almost comes across as malicious how much stuff gets retconned here. I'm 100% sure that's the case. "People think KOTOR 2 is better than KOTOR 1? I'll show them what the REAL story is!" Canemacar posted:P.S. Lord Scourge's name is ridiculous even by Star Wars standards. I remember Penny Arcade completely blasting Darth Plageuis and saying they couldn't even read the novel because of "silly Sith names" like Venemis. And then a few months later they couldn't stop talking about how great TOR is. You know, the game with Sith names like Scourge, Enraj, Vilus, Kallous...KALLOUS! But I guess the difference is that they were getting paid by EA and not by Lucasbooks.
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May 15, 2014 21:27
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There is seriously a dude named Darth loving Enraj?
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May 15, 2014 21:40
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Thanks to the Great EU Purge of 2014? No, no there is not.
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May 15, 2014 21:49
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jng2058 posted:Thanks to the Great EU Purge of 2014? No, no there is not. The Legends continuity is still a continuity, just not the one that's going to include the upcoming TV series and films.
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May 15, 2014 21:59
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Canemacar posted:lovely Revan book Agreed with everything here. I've posted a couple of times about how badly done the book was, but it really does irk me. And yeah, Karpyshyn really doesn't like KOTOR 2: The Exile literally gets stabbed in the back, certainly no way to go. A lot of people (myself included) wanted KOTOR 3; instead we got that book and The Old Republic.
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May 15, 2014 22:02
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The thing that really bugged me about the prequels is that it depended on the cartoons and books to be able to understand what was going for Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. I remember seeing RotS in the theaters and had no loving clue who Grievous was or what was going on, why does he have lightsabers, WTF? Yeah the EU was a mess, but the throwing away and starting fresh is just going to make the problem worse, in my opinion. The movies will be setup by the Rebels cartoon and random comic books and novels and unless you can keep up, you're only getting half the story from the movies. Stories need to be standalone in their respective mediums.
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May 15, 2014 22:20
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jng2058 posted:Thanks to the Great EU Purge of 2014? No, no there is not. Thank you god.
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May 15, 2014 22:36
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Megachile posted:And apparently it worked for LucasBooks - as awful as the Darth Bane trilogy is, a lot of people seemed to like them. I thought the first one was okay. It had a lot of problems but it was entertaining to read (bear in mind I was 14 when I read it, which may skew my perception of it somewhat). The next two were a bit rubbish, though. I think the second one might have one of the worst endings of any EU book. Cru Jones posted:Stories need to be standalone in their respective mediums. One of the great things about Doctor Who in this regard is that the writers have to stick to the provision of the BCC charter which basically stipulates that viewers should not be obliged to seek out and purchase extraneous or supplemental material to understand what's going on in a given programme. Everything the audience needs to understand the plot has to be laid out on the screen.
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May 15, 2014 23:00
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Metal Loaf posted:I thought the first one was okay. It had a lot of problems but it was entertaining to read (bear in mind I was 14 when I read it, which may skew my perception of it somewhat). Huh, do you have a source for that? That's pretty neat if so.
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May 15, 2014 23:07
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ImpAtom posted:There is seriously a dude named Darth loving Enraj? I know the Darth names aren't known for their subtlety, but you know they're scraping the barrel when they're having characters calling themselves Darth Ruin, Darth Ravage, Darth Maladi, and Darth Karnage. Cru Jones posted:The thing that really bugged me about the prequels is that it depended on the cartoons and books to be able to understand what was going for Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith. The easiest way to approach things like the EU is simply to pretend that vast swathes of it never happened. Or, alternatively, that only select parts of it happen. Which is made easier by the new canon regulation. Grievous' role in the film threw me too. I thought that they were going to have Christoper Lee as the main secondary antagonist, considering how little he did in AOTC. Nope, just stick in the asthmatic-robot-lizard and pretend everyone knows who he is  It's a problem he shares with Maul and Dooku. They're all disposable antagonists with zero personality.
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May 15, 2014 23:19
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ImpAtom posted:Huh, do you have a source for that? That's pretty neat if so. I think it's usually read into Section 5, or Sections 22-24. The basic thrust of the idea is that you can't make understanding a TV episode dependent on the purchase of any extra material (it's why the 50th anniversay special was simulcast in theatres; you could pay to go and see it, but you didn't have to, because it was also on TV for free). Anyway, while I was looking for the specific provision, I found this old blog post Paul Cornell wrote about "canonicity" in expanded universes which I thought was interesting. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 23:32 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 23:29
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