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Internet Kraken posted:This is why I don't get people thinking Dark Souls 2 has a bad story.
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May 12, 2014 16:09
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The story is in the item descriptions, character dialogue and personal observations. You're not going to find a story if you're not looking for it.
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May 12, 2014 16:12
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Doctor Spaceman posted:I'm only 30-something hours in, but so far there hasn't been anything I'd really call a story. Did you play Dark Souls 1? That's how the story works in the Souls series. Most people didn't even notice the Dark Souls 1 story until NG+ or until watching Vatividya on youtube explain everything explicitly. Basically you have to pay attention and do some detective work and that is WAY more than most gamers bother with. Honestly I find it amazingly refreshing compared to forced canned cutscenes telling me story stuff when I'd rather play the game. If I wanted a movie I'd watch a movie. Game story should be done implicitly. Dark Souls story is amazing. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 16:15 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 16:13
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Internet Kraken posted:This is why I don't get people thinking Dark Souls 2 has a bad story. The atmosphere for that encounter is incredible. I felt basically the same way you did. The game doesn't try to make you feel any sympathy towards Vendrick prior to that, but in a moment the weight of his burden and the tragedy of his story becomes clear. There's a good story in there, Dark Souls 2 just does a poor job establishing itself (I should not need to wait until 70% of the game is over to have any idea why I give a poo poo about Drangleic) and the ending kind of caves in on itself. Other than that it's a sweet ride.
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May 12, 2014 16:19
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Ulvirich posted:The story is in the item descriptions, character dialogue and personal observations. You're not going to find a story if you're not looking for it. To me that is lore and world-building rather than an actual story. I think the Souls games do a fantastic job of that, and a pretty awful job of actually having a plot which progresses as you play the game.
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May 12, 2014 16:19
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Doctor Spaceman posted:To me that is lore and world-building rather than an actual story. I think the Souls games do a fantastic job of that, and a pretty awful job of actually having a plot which progresses as you play the game. It's got a plot that progresses, it's just not as obvious as, say, Skyrim. There aren't quest givers and waypoints holding your hand as you play. If you narrowly define the story or plot as NPCs telling you exactly what to do, then I guess you could say Dark Souls doesn't have much of a plot.
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May 12, 2014 16:24
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So I get on an elevator with a sliver of health left. No big deal, I'll just heal. Then, while casting heal, the elevator somehow bounces me up just enough to kill me via fall damage 
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May 12, 2014 16:27
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Half the point of the story in the souls games is you're just another cursed dingus who has turned up to try and do something and will probably fail, like the countless hollows before you. The world doesn't really give a gently caress about you.
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May 12, 2014 16:27
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Captain Oblivious posted:There's a good story in there, Dark Souls 2 just does a poor job establishing itself (I should not need to wait until 70% of the game is over to have any idea why I give a poo poo about Drangleic) and the ending kind of caves in on itself. Other than that it's a sweet ride. I'm no expert on this universe's lore. But the one thing I got out of the majority of NPC encounters so far (I'm not even half way through the game yet) is that nobody knows why they give a poo poo about Drangleic. It's a major theme of the game. There isn't really a medium for Drangleic's lore to reach the player when everyone you meet seems to not remember much of their past. So you're kind of stuck until you finally find someone that can explain what the gently caress is going on.
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May 12, 2014 16:30
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The medium is, as always, item descriptions. That and certain NPC's dialogue (i.e. Shalquior) give you the majority of the plot and lore.
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May 12, 2014 16:32
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Ice Fist posted:I'm no expert on this universe's lore. But the one thing I got out of the majority of NPC encounters so far (I'm not even half way through the game yet) is that nobody knows why they give a poo poo about Drangleic. The whole "Going hollow, forgetting your purpose" theme makes sense from a lore perspective, but it makes for a poor excuse for why the player's goal goes from "Cure curse" to "Find souls" to "Find king" to "Be king" from a story-telling perspective. I mean, the Chosen Undead in DS1 seemed to distinguish him/herself by not going hollow and forgetting their goals.
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May 12, 2014 16:35
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kazil posted:It's got a plot that progresses, it's just not as obvious as, say, Skyrim. There aren't quest givers and waypoints holding your hand as you play. I'm not defining it that narrowly. In virtually all of what I've seen so far (and this applies to most of Dark Souls 1 as well) the game is more like archaeology or reading about a long-dead cold case; what changes is what you know about the world, not what is actually happening in it. Aside from clunky, awkward NPC dialog the series does a fantastic job of avoiding exposition dumps in favour of more natural methods of world-building, it's just that that doesn't translate into having an actual narrative for most of the game. Metroid Prime takes a similar approach, now that I think about it.
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May 12, 2014 16:36
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Is there a way to change your character's name? After seeing the Velstadt character a couple pages back makes me want to dome something similar, but not if I can't rename myself. I might have to start a new character I guess.
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May 12, 2014 16:36
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:The whole "Going hollow, forgetting your purpose" theme makes sense from a lore perspective, but it makes for a poor excuse for why the player's goal goes from "Cure curse" to "Find souls" to "Find king" to "Be king" from a story-telling perspective. But it's not an excuse, it's what happens?
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May 12, 2014 16:36
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I'm debating whether to continue my Str/Faith guy who is currently stuck-ish in Shrine of Amana (I know WHAT to do, binoculars + lightning spear, I just run out of patience) at 2M SM, or start over with a hexer/light weapons user. I actually enjoy spellcasting more on almost everything except most bosses 
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May 12, 2014 16:37
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david... posted:But it's not an excuse, it's what happens? Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't mesh well with the player's perception of events. We don't forget why we came to Drangleic, so it's jarring to jump from one goal to the next with little if any reason to do so other than continue playing.
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May 12, 2014 16:41
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Ice Fist posted:I'm no expert on this universe's lore. But the one thing I got out of the majority of NPC encounters so far (I'm not even half way through the game yet) is that nobody knows why they give a poo poo about Drangleic. It's a major theme of the game. There isn't really a medium for Drangleic's lore to reach the player when everyone you meet seems to not remember much of their past. So you're kind of stuck until you finally find someone that can explain what the gently caress is going on. Sure. That doesn't make it a particularly effective or interesting major theme though. NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't mesh well with the player's perception of events. We don't forget why we came to Drangleic, so it's jarring to jump from one goal to the next with little if any reason to do so other than continue playing. There is also this.
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May 12, 2014 16:46
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david... posted:Killing him is totally optional, for doing so you'll get his soul which drops in an area of Amana not from him, also his outfit which is probably one of the nicest looking sets if not very useful ~fashion souls~ Well, that explains why I got so little when I killed him. Dark souls! 
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May 12, 2014 16:46
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:The whole "Going hollow, forgetting your purpose" theme makes sense from a lore perspective, but it makes for a poor excuse for why the player's goal goes from "Cure curse" to "Find souls" to "Find king" to "Be king" from a story-telling perspective. The emerald herald is the one who tells the undead to become king. Your character forgot why they went there, she just tells you you came here to become king.
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May 12, 2014 16:48
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Internet Kraken posted:So I get on an elevator with a sliver of health left. No big deal, I'll just heal. Then, while casting heal, the elevator somehow bounces me up just enough to kill me via fall damage Reminds me of my time in Dark Souls. Being invaded in Anor Londo, the lag was so bad that the spinning elevator (the big setpiece) lurched thirty feet downward all at once, killing me with fall damage.
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May 12, 2014 16:49
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't mesh well with the player's perception of events. We don't forget why we came to Drangleic, so it's jarring to jump from one goal to the next with little if any reason to do so other than continue playing. If this Dark Souls II wiki page is to be believed From actually cut a lot of dialogue from the Emerald Herald that gave much clearer directions than what we got in-game. Relevant snippets (spoilered just in case): quote:Bearer of the curse, seek misery. EDIT: You can also listen to her cut dialogue here. Of course, it's ultimately not in-game stuff, so it doesn't matter all that much for the interpretation of the actual game, but it's still interesting stuff. Fair Bear Maiden fucked around with this message at 16:52 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 16:49
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^^ Can you imagine if she said that every time you tried to interact with her?  They really should move all her dialogue to behind the "talk" option. Heroic Yoshimitsu posted:Is there a way to change your character's name? After seeing the Velstadt character a couple pages back makes me want to dome something similar, but not if I can't rename myself. I might have to start a new character I guess. Nope.
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May 12, 2014 16:51
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NihilVerumNisiMors posted:Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't mesh well with the player's perception of events. We don't forget why we came to Drangleic, so it's jarring to jump from one goal to the next with little if any reason to do so other than continue playing. You have whatever reason you come up with on your own. The game doesn't try to foist a reason onto you because that doesn't work in a good story where the player character can be basically anyone. This is literally how Dark Souls worked though. In Dark Souls, your only reason for being in Lordran is the fable of the chosen undead, the last hope the cursed cling to to give themselves a goal to prevent going hollow. In Drangleic, your told of the 4 great ones and that acquiring their souls will mend your ailing mind. In both games, your initial goal is the same; keep yourself from going hollow. In Dark Souls your character might buy into the fable of the chosen undead (which the crestfallen warrior immediately dismisses). In Dark Souls 2 they cut the bullshit and get straight to the point; you need souls to keep yourself from going hollow. Drangleic has souls. EDIT: I think some of you need to rewatch the intro. The game is about the curse of the undead, and the intro really makes it clear what the effects of the curse are and why someone would go to Drangleic to relieve themselves of it.
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May 12, 2014 16:51
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:Relevant snippets (spoilered just in case): I wonder why they cut that, sounds like an appropriate explanation to me.
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May 12, 2014 16:52
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Internet Kraken posted:You have whatever reason you come up with on your own. The game doesn't try to foist a reason onto you because that doesn't work in a good story where the player character can be basically anyone. I don't really buy it. Making your own reason works in Dark Souls 1 because A) the importance of Linking the Fire is immediately obvious and B) if you're not into that, there's the Age of Dark ending. In Dark Souls 2 I have no idea, even after beating the game, what becoming the next monarch even means. How can I possibly formulate a reason for doing what I'm doing when I neither know WHAT I've accomplished precisely, nor why the antagonist even opposed me?
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May 12, 2014 16:53
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Zaphod42 posted:^^ Can you imagine if she said that every time you tried to interact with her?
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May 12, 2014 16:57
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What items have the backstory stuff? Most of the crap I have has pretty generic blurbs.Internet Kraken posted:You have whatever reason you come up with on your own. The game doesn't try to foist a reason onto you because that doesn't work in a good story where the player character can be basically anyone. This is a pretty bad excuse, dude. Inspector_666 fucked around with this message at 17:02 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 16:57
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I brought this up before and was mostly shot down, but I had the same feeling. In Dark Souls, it's: "I'm undead + dead, take up my mission" -> Ring the bells, and something will happen! -> Frampt says you are chosen undead, you gotta light the fire -> kill Gwyn, get ending In Dark Souls II, it's: ??? -> Hey, you there. Wanna
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May 12, 2014 16:59
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Zaphod42 posted:Nope. Not even possible through some save-editing thing? I probably wouldn't risk doing it anyway. Guess I'll go with a new character then.
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May 12, 2014 17:00
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Captain Oblivious posted:I don't really buy it. Making your own reason works in Dark Souls 1 because A) the importance of Linking the Fire is immediately obvious and B) if you're not into that, there's the Age of Dark ending. How is the linking of the fire immediately obvious at all? The game doesn't tell you what that will do at all. It never does. All you know is that it might be a vaguely good thing based on what some NPCs say. If you think for yourself at all though, you can tell the effects of it are poorly understood. Only Frampt knows what will happen, and he's not telling you the full story. Its a dubious goal at best. And really? You can't tell what you've accomplished? Do you need the game to spell out EVERYTHING? You're a demigod. You just consumed the souls of the most powerful beings in Drangleic. You've triumphed over everything, and will now forge your own path forward because you have the immense power to do so. Your soul is stronger than any other. You claim the throne because of this. What you do the game doesn't say, because it rightfully could not. Its basically the Age of Dark ending from Dark Souls; you overthrow all the old powers and build a mighty soul for yourself, and with it shall rule over the land.
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May 12, 2014 17:00
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Genocyber posted:plot and lore. These are two completely separate things, though. I agree that DS2's lore is perfectly fine, but the actual plot is a lot less clear than DS1. Part of that is probably because From felt they could get away with it now that we're on the third game in the series, but the game is still bad at giving you direction/motivation and a sense of purpose - it just goes "well, you should just go kill some stuff" whereas DS1 had much more specific directions, NPCs that explained why you had to do what you had to do (beyond "because") and even a cutscene that showed you what areas were opened by getting the Lordvessel.
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May 12, 2014 17:01
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Dark Souls II has just as much lore, but barely any plot to string you along to the end. I still have no idea why Alida and his fake-rear end dragon wants me to become king, either. And linking the fire was pretty obvious. The opening cutscene spelled out that the fire was dying, ushering in this Age of Dark which made everyone hollow (the Darksign, after all). Sounds bad, at face value. Nothing about this Throne of Want sounds pleasant.
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May 12, 2014 17:03
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Captain Oblivious posted:In Dark Souls 2 I have no idea, even after beating the game, what becoming the next monarch even means. How can I possibly formulate a reason for doing what I'm doing when I neither know WHAT I've accomplished precisely, nor why the antagonist even opposed me? Even as someone who likes Dark Souls lore a lot (in both games) I have to agree with this pretty strongly. The whole "become the next king" thing really doesn't make sense. Become the next king? The king of what? The kingdom is dead. Am I the king of a castle with nothing left but some undead shambling around? Do my subjects consist of anyone but a bunch of amnesiac hollows and a talking cat? There is seemingly nothing to be gained or accomplished in becoming the king of Drangleic because Drangleic is a dead. The player is just left wondering what his/her character is going to do besides sit on a forgotten throne under a forgotten castle in a forgotten land populated by hollows who have forgotten everything. It would be one thing if you rekindled the bonfires again and then took your "throne" to serve as it's guardian into the future. But you don't do that, you're just sitting on a dumb throne for no reason for eternity I guess.
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May 12, 2014 17:03
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Chomp8645 posted:There is seemingly nothing to be gained or accomplished in becoming the king of Drangleic because Drangleic is a dead. The player is just left wondering what his/her character is going to do besides sit on a forgotten throne under a forgotten castle in a forgotten land populated by hollows who have forgotten everything. This is especially weird since the opening cutscene has this whole spiel about searching for a cure and yada yada and they could have just had the Emerald Herald occasionally go "THE NEXT THING YOU NEED TO DO TO GET A CURE IS _________" and called it a day.
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May 12, 2014 17:05
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Chomp8645 posted:Even as someone who likes Dark Souls lore a lot (in both games) I have to agree with this pretty strongly. The whole "become the next king" thing really doesn't make sense. Nope sorry you don't even get the cat as one of your subjects. If you talk to her post-game she's like "Yo I'm out"  So basically it was all for nothing.
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May 12, 2014 17:13
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Lemon Curdistan posted:This is especially weird since the opening cutscene has this whole spiel about searching for a cure and yada yada and they could have just had the Emerald Herald occasionally go "THE NEXT THING YOU NEED TO DO TO GET A CURE IS _________" and called it a day. Yeah, the Emerald Herald kinda fell flat as a guide. Hollow/Emerald Interaction:  HEY HOLLOW SEEK SOME SOULS Ok I got some souls OK NOW SEEK THE KING Ok I found the king and got his ring OK NOW SAY HI TO THESE DRAGONS. THEY ARE MY FRIENDS. Um, hi dragons. Lovely weather we're having. OK NOW GO BECOME THE KING ALSO I AM HALF DRAGON OR SOMETHING WHATEVER Ok I am the king now, I'm sitting on the throne. FINE WORK THERE HOLLOWThe end.
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May 12, 2014 17:14
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Dark Souls 1 kind of has the same problem in that the plot is basically "Some dying guy gave you a bottle of kool-aid and also happened to mention that people in his family go on a pilgrimage to Lordran when they go undead". The rest of the story doesn't materialize until you're like 2/3 through the game. However, at least DS1 gave you a reason for why people are acting the way they are (Frampt especially) and why should do what you're being tasked to do. DS2 doesn't really start any stronger than DS1 does - you're still just doing random poo poo because a random person is telling you it might be a good idea. The difference is, as people have already mentioned, that even later in the game, your understanding of what the hell is going on doesn't really improve. I beat the game, saw the ending cutscene, but I'm none the wiser. I don't even know what the hell my character was doing at the end, there, and even less why.
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May 12, 2014 17:18
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Breaking santier's spear is the most tiresome poo poo.
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May 12, 2014 17:18
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Aldia screwed around with powerful souls. Shanalotte is a result of that. Perhaps he got hold of a piece of Manus and she's really a Dark/Dragon hybrid and did it all to oust Nashandra and become ruler herself. 
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May 12, 2014 17:18
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FirstPersonShitter posted:Breaking santier's spear is the most tiresome poo poo. Kill something, swing spear in the air above the corpse. I swear it takes off like 6 durability per swing.
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May 12, 2014 17:20
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