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May 12, 2014 05:21
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I finally get what they mean by the void.
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May 12, 2014 05:45
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Shnooks posted:I feel terrible saying this, but maybe someone can give me some insight. If you had really good speech one day, reflect on it, notice that thinking about your own good moral behavior feels good, then you will want to do it more. Think about a time that you did something really kind or were really generous, notice that this makes you feel good, then you will want to do more. Or you could try doing some loving-kindness meditation, which is easy to enjoy. Edit: The mind will go where it finds pleasure, there is a lot of pleasure in for example the peace of meditation, but it's not the sort of pleasure that the mind is used to, so you have to put in a bit of mindfulness to notice it. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 07:19 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 07:09
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A couple of other questions out of curiosity. 1. Is the goat man sexual misconduct? 2. I recall dimly from a class on Chinese history that there was a doctrine in Chinese Buddhism, at least, that essentially said you are allowed to be tricky, if not quite lie, in order to get some truths across. Am I accurately remembering this doctrine? The sort of titular example was lying to a child in order to get it to leave a burning house; the deceit was permissible in order to save the child's life. If so, do you think that this approach is moral?
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May 12, 2014 07:17
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Nessus posted:A couple of other questions out of curiosity. Nessus posted:2. I recall dimly from a class on Chinese history that there was a doctrine in Chinese Buddhism, at least, that essentially said you are allowed to be tricky, if not quite lie, in order to get some truths across. Am I accurately remembering this doctrine? The sort of titular example was lying to a child in order to get it to leave a burning house; the deceit was permissible in order to save the child's life. If so, do you think that this approach is moral? If you take precepts and make an effort to be more moral, you will over time notice an increase in sensitivity to your 'gut feeling' for right and wrong. It's fine to have abstract discussions about ethics, but when you come down to it, it's about knowing for yourself 'this feels wrong' or 'this feels right'. Edit: Just an example, if you have a period where you are very honest and then you tell a lie, you can actually notice that it feels quite unpleasant and burdensome to lie - not in the sense of guilt because 'lying is wrong' - it's just how lying feels in itself, but it takes some sensitivity and mindfulness to notice this. So, I would say what is important is to develop the sensitivity to know what it is right or wrong and try to act accordingly, whatever situation arises. Rhymenoceros fucked around with this message at 08:45 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 08:34
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Leon Sumbitches posted:I always appreciate reading this thread, but things tend to take a turn towards being incomprehensible and confrontational when TPJWA pops up. I noticed that. I really wish he'd stop posting here. I've never read posts from a more confrontational, egotistical blowhard on a forum like this but maybe I don't get around much. Paramemetic took time to try to decipher his patience-taxing, obtuse garbage only to have different garbage thrown back. At this point, I think its best if we just ignore every post or question from him, not because he challenges the things laid out to help him understand this stuff but because he ignores the actual responses given to him and seems more intent on winning some argument only he is having. Paramemetic, your posts in the last few pages have been some of the most cogent and well-written posts on the subject of mindstream, karma, consciousness, etc. I appreciate adding perspectives to this stuff. sorry that you wasted so much time on TPJWU. Also Rhymenoceros posted:So in the same way with karma, the Buddha is saying "these actions lead to suffering, these actions lead to happiness". He's just describing the rules by which the mental phenomenons of pleasure and pain behave. There is no concept of reward or punishment here; if you jump from a tall building, gravity is not punishing you by accelerating you against the pavement, it's just what gravity does.
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May 12, 2014 13:00
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he1ixx posted:Paramemetic, your posts in the last few pages have been some of the most cogent and well-written posts on the subject of mindstream, karma, consciousness, etc. I appreciate adding perspectives to this stuff. sorry that you wasted so much time on TPJWU. I'm sorry as well, I was trying to ask honest questions about things I was curious about and it seemed like TPJWU hijacked my line of questioning, took it to somewhere confrontational, and now I feel uncomfortable to go back to the subject of mind stream even though I still have more questions. I don't want to come off as confrontational, it wasn't my intent at all.
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May 12, 2014 13:11
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You are all looking to extract pleasure out of Buddhism but all it has for you is ways to acknowledge your existing pain. We're all in pain. That's the common ground. Pleasure gets you nowhere except away from that pain. Sex feels like the most intense and pleasureable thing in the world because it's based on the ache and pain of separation. Now do you follow me. ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 13:38 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 13:36
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See the problem is we are all on an internet forum and so we all have an equal voice. But in person the difference in conviction between me and many of you would be clear. At times at least. Oftentimes recently I feel "toothless" but that's a phase of some kind. Only other person in this thread I think has conviction about anything is Mr Mambold and I've said that before. The rest of you have good book knowedge, and/or good questions. ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 14:11 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 14:00
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:You are all looking to extract pleasure out of Buddhism but all it has for you is ways to acknowledge your existing pain. I think you're projecting. I have "followed" you since you started posting, I just think you're wrong about almost everything you put into words, you project your own confusion on things and then label it logic and you derail otherwise interesting discussions. Your "exploration" isn't meant to grow understanding, it's there to mislead people back to your own twisted view of the dharma and I seriously wish you'd stop. Your basic views are "I get it, you don't and this Buddha guy wrote stuff that none of you seem to be understanding. Also all Buddhist teachers in the last 2500 years got it wrong too. Let me set you straight, Buddhist noobies". Dude, we "get" you. We just wish you'd stop posting. When people call your drivel "word salad" they're being nice. I'm being honest with you. Read some books, take a class. Actually *read* what people are trying to tell you here on this board. Anything really. Just stop posting here. Please.
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May 12, 2014 16:46
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:See the problem is we are all on an internet forum and so we all have an equal voice. But in person the difference in conviction between me and many of you would be clear. At times at least. Oftentimes recently I feel "toothless" but that's a phase of some kind. What? You know nothing about me but you think I (and about 40 other people) lack conviction? Hell, I don't even know what that means in this context. 
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May 12, 2014 16:54
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he1ixx posted:I think you're projecting. I have "followed" you since you started posting, I just think you're wrong about almost everything you put into words, you project your own confusion on things and then label it logic and you derail otherwise interesting discussions. Your "exploration" isn't meant to grow understanding, it's there to mislead people back to your own twisted view of the dharma and I seriously wish you'd stop. articulation skills. But he seemed to enjoy being the policeman of the thread. You're actually viscerally frustrated which I find..actually I don't have an opinion about it. Whatever. I'll take it. And I do read everyone's post. I think you think people are saying more than they're actually saying. I don't have to read between the lines or impute anything, I just read the words and then I respond. You impute a lot of things on me, which isn't accurate. Anway, till next time. I still wanna see Prickly Pete's post though. Just to see.
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May 12, 2014 16:54
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You have already told me that I'm not a Buddhist so it will probably be a let-down. I'll be back home in a few days.
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May 12, 2014 17:01
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Prickly Pete posted:You have already told me that I'm not a Buddhist so it will probably be a let-down. To inspire you to be one
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May 12, 2014 17:05
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Also Vladimir Poutine understood what I was trying to say. I bring that up because I don't think it's worth getting mad at me if you don't understand my posts. They are at least getting through to one person, for whatever reason.
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May 12, 2014 17:25
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What are you talking about? He literally said that the goatman's gaping rear end was the emptiness Buddha had been teaching about.
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May 12, 2014 17:29
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mcustic posted:What are you talking about? He literally said that the goatman's gaping rear end was the emptiness Buddha had been teaching about. Oh, ha. Well then, back to the drawing board. I only saw it after it was edited out
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May 12, 2014 17:39
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:You are all looking to extract pleasure out of Buddhism but all it has for you is ways to acknowledge your existing pain.
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May 12, 2014 17:50
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:Man, you're making me miss Wafflehound. Not that he did it any better, you guys are about equal in your I'm not "viscerally" frustrated (more word salad -- what does that even mean?). Again, you're conflating how I you think I feel about you with what you're actually doing in real life. I'm mildly frustrated that you took a decent discussion on mindstream, emptiness and karma and turned it into more discussion about you, how we don't "get what you're saying", how nobody is Buddhist but you, etc. I won't poo poo up this thread with more stuff about how bad you are at the internet and just ignore you from now on. I've been pretty frank with you in the past but you seem to thrive on attention -- good or bad -- so responding just encourages you to post more. Sorry to everyone else who is reading this.
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May 12, 2014 17:56
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Nessus posted:Are you posting from the realm of hungry ghosts? Yes and no. Consider the first noble truth, that's all. he1ixx posted:I'm not "viscerally" frustrated (more word salad -- what does that even mean?). quote:vis·cer·al adjective \ˈvi-sə-rəl, ˈvis-rəl\ Yes, this. It's better for you to just ignore me. ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 18:01 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 17:58
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If you put TPJWU on ignore and read all the other stuff there's some rich fruit from this discussion to be picked. I think I've definitely gained a way better understanding of mindstream than I've ever had before, and if anything rebirth is starting to make more sense to me now, so thanks guys!
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May 12, 2014 18:02
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:
How did what I just say not come from logic? I am frustrated with your lovely posts -- that is both logical and reasonable, not visceral. If I was the only one saying this in response to your drivel, then maybe you'd be right. Anyway, enjoy spewing your idiocy into the void. You're on ignore from here on out .
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May 12, 2014 18:05
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:Consider the first noble truth, that's all. Consider the difference between "insightful" and "inciteful."
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May 12, 2014 18:05
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I too have an improved (if still limited) understanding of the concept of the mindstream as a result of this discussion.
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May 12, 2014 18:06
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Paramemetic posted:Consider the difference between "insightful" and "inciteful." Actual insight is both in that it does damage to your worldview rather than buttress it.
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May 12, 2014 18:12
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I guess it is important to learn a bunch of stuff before you realize it's all useless. But if that were true, in our hyper-information age where we have fact after fact and data upon data shoveled on us, it seems like everyone would become enlightened somehow through the inevitable realization that none of it is helpful. That this doesn't happen implies that it is a quite different process than this, an entirely personal process, that is actually an entirely simple misunderstanding of how things are, and one that never changes and can never be modified by culture. I'm still not getting through. Whatever
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May 12, 2014 18:19
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I have an improved understanding of Avici as a result of this discussion.
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May 12, 2014 18:40
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Folderol posted:I have an improved understanding of Avici as a result of this discussion. Gotta be honest, goatman was a turning word. I have understood void and am now tathagata.
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May 12, 2014 19:16
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he1ixx posted:That was really well said. Something clicked when I read that, in a good way!  ThePriceJustWentUp posted:You are all looking to extract pleasure out of Buddhism but all it has for you is ways to acknowledge your existing pain. I would say that the Buddhist path is a path of happiness. There is pleasure in keeping precepts, not sensual pleasure, but spiritual pleasure. It feels nice to know you haven't caused anyone any harm, this is a good feeling, but it is a different kind of feeling than one gets from drugs or food etc. It does feel good to be kind and compassionate, and I think one should pursue those good feelings because they incline the mind towards skillful actions, which again inhibit the five hindrances, which in turn enables the kind of meditation where you can see for yourself what feelings really are. ThePriceJustWentUp posted:We're all in pain. That's the common ground. Pleasure gets you nowhere except away from that pain. Sex feels like the most intense and pleasureable thing in the world because it's based on the ache and pain of separation. Now do you follow me. Letting go feels better than craving, basically.
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May 12, 2014 19:39
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I've been on vacation for nearly three weeks and have not kept up my practice at all. Next time I do this, any tips? I mostly just don't want to feel 'weird' meditating or reciting the heart sutra or mantras around other people.
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May 12, 2014 19:47
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Cumshot in the Dark posted:I've been on vacation for nearly three weeks and have not kept up my practice at all. Next time I do this, any tips? I mostly just don't want to feel 'weird' meditating or reciting the heart sutra or mantras around other people. I kind of have the same issue. Maybe hanging out with a sangha would be beneficial here, you know, so it becomes more normal to practice around others.
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May 12, 2014 20:10
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Cumshot in the Dark posted:I've been on vacation for nearly three weeks and have not kept up my practice at all. Next time I do this, any tips? I mostly just don't want to feel 'weird' meditating or reciting the heart sutra or mantras around other people. I have had this issue while on vacation or away from home and I feel hesitant to meditate around other people. I usually modify my practice to fit the circumstances. Meditation is usually done while seated by most people, but there are actually 4 positions mentioned in the sutras. In addition to seated meditation, there is walking meditation, standing meditation, and meditation while laying down. If I am away from home I will usually try to get a session in while laying on my back before bed. If you have the ability, it can help to load some guided meditation sessions onto your phone to listen to before turning in for the night. It is easier to fall asleep this way for obvious reasons, but it is just as valid a technique as seated meditation. I also load my phone with Dhamma talks, and try to have some suttas or Dhamma books on my kindle to read during downtime. It can help to keep you focused while away if you really want to keep your practice up.
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May 12, 2014 20:27
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Cumshot in the Dark posted:I've been on vacation for nearly three weeks and have not kept up my practice at all. Next time I do this, any tips? I mostly just don't want to feel 'weird' meditating or reciting the heart sutra or mantras around other people. I wouldn't worry about it too much. The first suggestion to this sort of thing is to wake up a bit before everyone else and do your sitting then. Second, chanting can always be done silently if it is something you want to still fit in. One of the main things suggested for finding a place to sit, generally, is to find a place where you will not be interrupted by anyone, nor, for that matter, in public view. If you don't have access to such a place, might be better to just take a raincheck. Being publically visible while sitting can be problematic both because it looks weird as poo poo to most people, and because the desire to be seen as a meditator can give people a bunch of grief, as well. So it is generally best to err on the side of practicing in private. That said, by all means chant silently in your head or fit the meditating in without the posture, or whatever you can appropriately manage. Don't sweat it if you miss days. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:31 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 20:29
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Is this an ok translation of the heart sutra? http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heartsutra.html
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May 12, 2014 20:33
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The-Mole posted:The first suggestion to this sort of thing is to wake up a bit before everyone else and do your sitting then. That's actually a better idea than the laying-down meditation at night if you can swing it. You'll be more alert. You can also meditate while seated in a chair, or at the edge of your bed if a cushion isn't available
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May 12, 2014 20:38
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Everything I ever said is all in the Heart Sutra. There has been far less disagreement between me and Buddhism than many of you think. My disagreements are with forum posters, not the Buddha. quote:So, in emptiness, there is no body, quote:There is no suffering, no cause of suffering, What does mindstream have to do with the Heart Sutra by the way? Where does mindstream enter in. ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 20:49 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 20:43
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Prickly Pete posted:I also load my phone with Dhamma talks, and try to have some suttas or Dhamma books on my kindle to read during downtime. It can help to keep you focused while away if you really want to keep your practice up.
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May 12, 2014 20:56
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ThePriceJustWentUp posted:The Buddha literally means all of these things. He is not saying anything other than what he is saying. He is not implying anything other than what he is directly saying. If I'm not mistaken, Arya Avalokitesvara says that. But I agree that it is exactly meant. You are the one who has been contradicting it in what you've said. This is why people are confused, among other things, by your talk. quote:What does mindstream have to do with the Heart Sutra by the way? Where does mindstream enter in. All the parts about emptiness that you apparently missed, basically, and the bits about relative versus absolute reality. As Saraha said, quote:Grasping existence is like cattle. Grasping nonexistence is even more stupid. Emptiness is not nihilism. You seem to be professing nihilism. This is a problem.
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May 12, 2014 20:58
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Paramemetic posted:If I'm not mistaken, Arya Avalokitesvara says that. But I agree that it is exactly meant. You are the one who has been contradicting it in what you've said. This is why people are confused, among other things, by your talk. Emptiness is not nihilism, but it is negation (Where nihilism has existential connotations such as "if nothing exists then I should just kill my physical body because why bother"). That's why I said "he's not saying anything other than what he is saying". He is not saying, tongue-in-cheek, "there is no body, no feeling, no thought, no consciousness....but actually there is some other different kind of body, feeling, thought, and consciousness". He literally means it. Emptiness is the negation of concepts, the removal of them, and leaving in their place nothing. Does that mean you fall over and die, never to exist again? Find out. And I have no idea who that teacher you referenced is. edit - A historical bodhisattva? Is there some scripture tied to them? I have contradicted nothing. I am actually explaining the heart sutra to you all. That's what I've spent 7 months trying to do I guess. I am not grasping nonexistence. I have no idea what that means. I am negating existences, which can only ever be described conceptually. They do not exist apart from our words about them. ThePriceJustWentUp fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 12, 2014 |
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May 12, 2014 21:04
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A good idea for maintaining your practice during your vacation would be to tell the people you're vacationing with that you meditate. It's not a weird thing to do nowadays, many people have a meditation practice for health purposes and whatnot. Then find a suitable spot and sit - a beach is fine, if it's not crowded. Anywhere in nature works for me, and city parks are also nice sometimes.
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May 12, 2014 21:32
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