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Angry Grimace posted:It makes me laugh that people expected the Modern event deck to have cards that are worth more money than it cost to buy the deck. Hi, I'm the thragtusk event deck. It makes me laugh that you're not aware of precedence. Stinky Pit posted:That's par for the course I think. As long as I can remember there have been undervalued and overvalued cards that in retrospect look ridiculous. People scoffed at Dark Confidant when it was first revealed. I guess for me its a lot less amusing since its just kind of expected. CONTEXT Dark Confidant was printed in a format where the previous decks were all playing high mana cards and relied on cards like Gifts, Kodama's Reach, etc to gain advantage or were just casting weird harvests to go off quickly. Hand in Hand was a deck that could reasonably play it but Zoo wasn't touching it. Cards like Lightning Bolt (I'm aware Bolt is old as gently caress but it didn't see reprint into the game until M10) and Thoughtseize and Tarmogoyf didn't exist yet (in standard/extended) and extended was still dominated by Psychatog and Mind's Desire Combo and Dredgeatog (i.e. lists that mostly dont give a poo poo about dark confidant) and Legacy was a format that was more about combos and less about mashing good stuff. Once again, no Goyf. It's very much a beneficiary of the power creep of the game since its printing. Not to mention it was in the same block as Electrolyze and Izzet Signet and in the same standard format as the Urza Lands, y'know, as a 1 toughness 2-drop (i.e. Electrolyze bait). Zoness fucked around with this message at 17:27 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:12
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kingcobweb posted:What? Who thought this? They are/were dumb. PV actually really did not like the Scry Lands, as far as actual pros go.
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May 13, 2014 17:15
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Zoness posted:Hi, I'm the thragtusk event deck. It makes me laugh that you're not aware of precedence. I still have 2 of the Thragtusk event deck. How the mighty have fallen... 
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May 13, 2014 17:20
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MiddleEastBeast posted:The individual cards cost way more than it costs to buy the deck, though, so I think what people are frustrated about is that everyone knew whatever deck it was would be a dogshit pile. Nobody expected it to be a tuned Jund list. What people *were* hoping for is that Gavin Vehrey or whoever would acknowledge that, and just cram it full of cards that could be parted out and used in other decks/archetypes. Like Bitterblossom - a card that can be used in Fairies, but also theoretically goes in a B/W tokens deck. Or Marsh Flats/Fetid Heath, which slot nicely into Pod or Junk decks. Nobody wanted it crammed with value, they wanted it crammed with utility.
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May 13, 2014 17:28
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Zoness posted:Hi, I'm the thragtusk event deck. It makes me laugh that you're not aware of precedence. On the whole they generally aren't, though. Its not a good gamble when most of them aren't. rabidsquid posted:PV actually really did not like the Scry Lands, as far as actual pros go. I don't like Scrylands for being almost a parody of dual lands, but they're certainly playable, and often quite useful in the context of Standard. Angry Grimace fucked around with this message at 17:36 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 17:33
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Dr. Clockwork posted:I still have 2 of the Thragtusk event deck. How the mighty have fallen... I did too. My LCS gave me half the MRSP for them. Which I was completely okay with since I got back 25 bucks.
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May 13, 2014 17:40
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Dr. Clockwork posted:I still have 2 of the Thragtusk event deck. How the mighty have fallen... You say that like Thragtusk wasn't in three event decks (in the sideboard for some reason). They really wanted this thing to get around.
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May 13, 2014 18:08
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If Mirri the Cursed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122406) is blocked by two creature without first strike or double strike and she assigns combat damage to both will she get 2 +1/+1s or just one?
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May 13, 2014 18:12
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Oraculum Animi posted:If Mirri the Cursed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122406) is blocked by two creature without first strike or double strike and she assigns combat damage to both will she get 2 +1/+1s or just one? Mirri will receive two counters after first strike damage is assigned but before the blocking creatures deal damage.
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May 13, 2014 18:15
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Oraculum Animi posted:If Mirri the Cursed (http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122406) is blocked by two creature without first strike or double strike and she assigns combat damage to both will she get 2 +1/+1s or just one? It would depend on the toughness of the blockers. You can't assign combat damage to a second blocker until lethal damage is assigned to the first, so if her two blockers both have 3 toughness, she'll only get 1 counter. This trigger will resolve during the first strike damage step and before the normal combat damage step. e: Oh, you're stating that she assigns damage to both. Then she'd get two counters.
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May 13, 2014 18:16
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Tharizdun posted:I think what people are frustrated about is that everyone knew whatever deck it was would be a dogshit pile. Nobody expected it to be a tuned Jund list. What people *were* hoping for is that Gavin Vehrey or whoever would acknowledge that, and just cram it full of cards that could be parted out and used in other decks/archetypes. Like Bitterblossom - a card that can be used in Fairies, but also theoretically goes in a B/W tokens deck. Or Marsh Flats/Fetid Heath, which slot nicely into Pod or Junk decks. Nobody wanted it crammed with value, they wanted it crammed with utility.
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May 13, 2014 18:24
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Zoness posted:CONTEXT
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May 13, 2014 18:25
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Mortimer posted:What's the best dual deck for teaching someone magic?
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May 13, 2014 18:26
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I think that when we very first saw the scry lands there was much less of a sense of a baseline for what a free Scry 1 was worth. Scry was either not constructed playable, or busted because it was on a one-mana blue cantrip, and there wasn't much middle ground. I guess Magma Jet was in there too. Viscera Seer doesn't really count since you're rarely super excited about the scry per se there, either. I can't think of much else that was highly playable before Theros block.
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May 13, 2014 18:28
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LordSaturn posted:Wasn't this the same Standard where you could be a viable Tier 2 deck with 4x Boomerang and 4x Eye of Nowhere because nobody played 1-drops? That and Land Destruction was great and bouncing a Karoo was like, almost two time walks. Well, and Magnivore was in the format as a finisher for U/R Vore. Something like this
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May 13, 2014 18:35
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I think most people's misevaluation of the scrylands comes from what they were most easily compared to. The fact that they are a rare dual land that comes into play tapped 100% of the time naturally leads people to look at the last time we had rare duals with the same universal drawback, aka manlands. In the case of manlands, it's much, much easier to assign value to whatever creature they can become and evaluate the lands accordingly, whereas scrying on a land obviously has much more nebulous value (which as we know now, is quite good). That coupled with the fact that they came on the heels of guildgates and so were naturally compared directly to those, too, as "nothing more than guildgates with an ability I can't easily value" and I think that explains most of why people who missed the mark on them did. MiddleEastBeast fucked around with this message at 18:50 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 18:46
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Zoness posted:That and Land Destruction was great and bouncing a Karoo was like, almost two time walks. I wasn't playing standard at the time, but UR Vore always looked like one of the most obnoxious decks ever to exist in Standard. It took forever to kill you and its goal was to stop you from actually playing Magic; not the most fun combination of things to play against.
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May 13, 2014 18:52
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Zoness posted:Hi, I'm the thragtusk event deck. It makes me laugh that you're not aware of precedence. This is BS. Anyone who actually knew how this game worked knew Dark Confidant was an amazing card. I started playing in Champions and still had a snake deck come Ravnica, but I absolutely knew how great it was.
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May 13, 2014 18:52
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MiddleEastBeast posted:That coupled with the fact that they came on the heels of guildgates and so were naturally compared directly to those too as "nothing more than guildgates with an ability I can't easily value" and I think that explains most of why people who missed the mark on them did. I will be interested to see how they pan out in the next format, assuming huey feels different enough from RTR block, which hopefully it should.
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May 13, 2014 18:54
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GonSmithe posted:This is BS. Anyone who actually knew how this game worked knew Dark Confidant was an amazing card. I started playing in Champions and still had a snake deck come Ravnica, but I absolutely knew how great it was. Yeah you should point out the great variety of decklists that featured it. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Events.aspx?x=mtgevent/pthon06/t8decks Oh right, pretty much limited to W/B Aggro. I'm not saying it was a -bad- card, it still wasn't anywhere near as good as it is now because of power creep. A lot of people tried jamming it into their B/x decks at that pro tour but it really only performed in the W/B Aggro list for a reason.
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May 13, 2014 18:57
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Spiderdrake posted:Also lots of people who said they sucked were reacting to being upset they tacked on scry 1 and made them rares. Never underestimate emotional reactions screwing with people's evaluations, after all. There are only so many clever dual land variations you can do. It starts to become a parody of itself when you tack on mechanics to lands that 90% of the time do the same thing as every other dual land. I think a lot of people get tired of WOTC trying to get cute with making you buy what amounts to the same card over and over.
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May 13, 2014 19:00
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Mortimer posted:What's the best dual deck for teaching someone magic?  I'll have them around if you ever want to give it a try when I get back. I forgot if you only do modern or also do legacy.
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May 13, 2014 19:01
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I tried to teach my wife to play via Event Decks and I think it was a little confusing when I had to explain each and every mechanic. I wanted her to have a chance to try using nicer cards, but the variety of mechanics in regular Standard is kind of much. I think the regular starter packs are probably better.
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May 13, 2014 19:06
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That's pretty interesting, although from my experience, people who haven't played magic at all have a tough time even with stuff like basic combat (when it's good to attack, when to offer trades, who's the beatdown). I can't imagine giving a new player, say, a miracles deck and then having them do brainstorms, spinning sensei's divining top, casting clique at appropriate times and knowing what to take, etc. But I guess if they constantly play the same matchup they pick up on these nuances.
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May 13, 2014 19:10
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Yeah guys I don't know who you are teaching magic to but Phyrexia v Coalition or straight up legacy decks are probably the absolute worst place to start in all of Magic. I've taught 3-4 people and I can't imagine how quickly someone would leave if I asked them to learn the game with ANT. Buy four intro packs and make two decks out of them. Kasonic fucked around with this message at 19:13 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:11
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Haha, seriously? ANT is as far as from a "learn to play" Deck as I can think of. What's the deck you move up to? Doomsday? Zoo and maybe D&T or Maverick.are the only t1 legacy deck that I would consider teaching with. My teaching decks are simple draft leftovers with only core-set mechanics. Only 1-2 rares per deck, few instants.
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May 13, 2014 19:15
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In reality, the best starter deck is something you build yourself that is full of Llanowar Elves, Grizzly Bears and Doom Blades. Stuff that's not hard to understand.
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May 13, 2014 19:16
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Kasonic posted:Yeah guys I don't know who you are teaching magic to but Phyrexia v Coalition or straight up legacy decks are probably the absolute worst place to start in all of Magic. I've taught 3-4 people and I can't imagine how quickly someone would leave if I asked them to learn the game with ANT. I dunno, I assume most people I'm teaching magic to are capable of reading. It's not like any of the cards in PvC are particularly complex on rules interactions and they all do enough different things to not be boring. The main concern is they use a lot of old designs that don't carry over well, but I dunno, mono colored vs domain is cool and it's not a thing that comes up diving directly into tournament play but it's kind of a thing players go through when building their own decks and I think it's the best duel deck for looking at that part of the game at least. Like, playing both ends is sort of an exploration of why one color might not do everything you'd want but why running every color can be a problem too. Domain isn't a complex mechanic and Phyrexian Negator is a cool card that like, explores the cost-benefit of an undercosted creature with a severe drawback (even if Negator is like, behind the curve for current magic thanks to power creep it sits at a good place in the context of the duel deck). But yeah I guess if you're teaching magic to someone with severe ADHD then yeah the presence of rules text on cards could be a problem. Zoness fucked around with this message at 19:29 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:24
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Relating to that discussion I really wish they'd pushed clash packs out immediately because that is such a great idea. Unless I'm misremembering, but two 60 card decks that you can teach with but also turns into an event deck afterward? That is a great way to sell the product and teach the product without divorcing the two.
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May 13, 2014 19:27
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Fox of Stone posted:I missed this but I taught several friends magic with my legacy decks over the past year or two. Serious post. I think Death and Taxes v. Miracles is a good teaching tool and so is shardless/BUG v. ANT and other permutations. I urge my other friends to proxy up legacy decks and do the same. It teaches good fundamentals of the game like good thoughtseize plans, good sequencing especially with the lands, not overextending with D&T, utility tricks, and how a combo deck functions even against heavy disruption. It covers all the main metagame clock decks - grindy value midrange, aggro/control depending on D&T build, control, and good old combo. I sometimes include burn to humor my friends who really like the idea of legacy burn. The only difference between them and modern or standard are critical turns and the lack of brainstorm to tuck important cards from thoughtseize You're insane, none of that stuff is anything a new player should be worrying about, they need to know how basic things like combat and the stack work before even thinking about strategy.
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May 13, 2014 19:28
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I've taught friends who played other card games so maybe that's why it wasn't as intimidating to them. My brother plays poker and he loves ANT. Looking back at it, the people who seemed to enjoy ANT were my maths-inclined friends so maybe that might explain it? They seemed to enjoy the spell-based interaction that didn't involve any creatures so it's not like it's any harder than explaining all the things creatures do. They actually find it hilarious that people even win with creatures when they see how fast ANT works and find the jace milling ultimate to be really cool. E: to be fair I probably gave them a warped view of magic and that combos are heavily frowned upon. That is my fault. Hopefully they'll enjoy the combo decks tentatively present in modern. Chill la Chill fucked around with this message at 19:33 on May 13, 2014 |
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May 13, 2014 19:30
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Entropic posted:You're insane, none of that stuff is anything a new player should be worrying about, they need to know how basic things like combat and the stack work before even thinking about strategy. I actually have a hard time understanding why the stack is a difficult concept and I don't think it has anything to do with whether or not one has a background in programming. Mostly I think it's because players used to say "in response" as a buzzword which didn't clarify things properly. Combat was mostly learning what I could or could not do over several iterations of the combat rules but it's intuitive enough in the current iteration.
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May 13, 2014 19:32
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Zoness posted:I dunno, I assume most people I'm teaching magic to are capable of reading. It's not like any of the cards in PvC are particularly complex on rules interactions and they all do enough different things to not be boring. The main concern is they use a lot of old designs that don't carry over well, but I dunno, mono colored vs domain is cool and it's not a thing that comes up diving directly into tournament play but it's kind of a thing players go through when building their own decks and I think it's the best duel deck for looking at that part of the game at least. Like, playing both ends is sort of an exploration of why one color might not do everything you'd want but why running every color can be a problem too. Domain isn't a complex mechanic and Phyrexian Negator is a cool card that like, explores the cost-benefit of an undercosted creature with a severe drawback (even if Negator is like, behind the curve for current magic thanks to power creep it sits at a good place in the context of the duel deck). The problem isn't people understanding the cards, its that people don't have fun when they don't understand what the cards do without having to stop and read every card. The goal isn't to get them to understand the mechanics in a vacuum, its for them to have fun.
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May 13, 2014 19:32
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Angry Grimace posted:The problem isn't people understanding the cards, its that people don't have fun when they don't understand what the cards do without having to stop and read every card. The goal isn't to get them to understand the mechanics in a vacuum, its for them to have fun. I literally don't see any duel deck as having cards that are hard enough to grasp that you'd be having this problem every time you go and play a card, but I also find reading what new cards do to be fun because playing with the same cards over and over again is boring. Incidentally that's why I hated standard about a month ago because where was the innovation. Honestly if my friends had introduced me to magic as bashing grizzly bears into each other instead of like, one of them having a burn deck, one of them having a Zirilan-themed dragon deck, and one of them having a casual ONS block elf deck (w/ all the tribal synergies), I probably would have never touched the game so I guess different strokes. And back then one of them gave me a pile of clerics that I tuned into using the daru spiritualist - starlit sanctum life combo so I thought that stuff was cool as hell. And yeah, this was when I was starting to play back in ONS block.
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May 13, 2014 19:38
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Angry Grimace posted:The goal isn't to get them to understand the mechanics in a vacuum, its for them to have fun.
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May 13, 2014 19:39
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Angry Grimace posted:In reality, the best starter deck is something you build yourself that is full of Llanowar Elves, Grizzly Bears and Doom Blades. Stuff that's not hard to understand. Qfft
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May 13, 2014 19:39
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Mortimer posted:What's the best dual deck for teaching someone magic? I'll ignore the "dual deck" part and say if you're actually starting from zero, go to your LGS and pick up a few of the free starter decks that Wizards provides for exactly this purpose. Or give them a tablet with duels loaded on it. 
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May 13, 2014 19:41
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Entropic posted:You're insane, none of that stuff is anything a new player should be worrying about, they need to know how basic things like combat and the stack work before even thinking about strategy. Are you sure that learning when to play Yawgmoth's Bargain into counters and when you can cast Tendrils to keep drawing isn't a basic building block skill to a brand new player of Magic: The Gathering? edit: Good luck winning an FNM draft if you don't even know how to hold priority with LED when you cast your Infernal Tutor!!
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May 13, 2014 19:42
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I tend to find giving the person I'm teaching the right "cool" deck to start with tends to be more important than how complex a deck is, though you don't want too complex. For example, I had one friend who kept looking at Magic and going "Ehhhh, it's alright." Then I showed him artifacts and robots and he was all over that stuff. Similarly, the little intro decks didn't do me anything at all, but Innistrad with lots of humans working together aggressive did click for me.
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May 13, 2014 19:47
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I got pretty good mileage out of Koth vs. Venser for this purpose, but Duels is a really good starting point.
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May 13, 2014 19:48
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