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Waterhaul posted:So what's the alien? The kind with healing blood. Species doesn't really matter for the show's purposes. Giving it a name doesn't change anything. What's different if we know it's a Kree, or a Skrull that got stuck in Dr. Manhattan form before dying?
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May 14, 2014 14:27
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Hakkesshu posted:Why is that important to know right now? Because it is indicative of the show's failing. They introduced a mystery, dragged it out at a snails pace and threw an excuse of "magic alien" and are going to drag out the "magic alien" another season and "what really happened to Coulson when he was brought back". It's like with Skye's parents. An entire season of "who is her parents" followed by they are a shadowy figure. If they've already decided that their parents are an established character why not show that and if they haven't then what's the point of hiding their identity? Like the show is basically back to where it started except one of the characters is bad. Aphrodite posted:The kind with healing blood. It gives actual closure to an issue rather than just continuing one mystery as a slightly different one.
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May 14, 2014 14:30
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Waterhaul posted:It gives actual closure to an issue rather than just continuing one mystery as a slightly different one. So if there would have been a label on the alien's chamber that said "Bagorble Alien", then to you, that makes a meaningful difference to the narrative?
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May 14, 2014 14:33
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Waterhaul posted:So what's the alien? Why does it matter? Humans right now in the Marvel universe have no loving clue what the names of these alien races are. They got a list of some names from Sif, but no context to define which race it was. It's an alien that Shield captured on Earth, who's blood has healing power along with potentially affecting other things.
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May 14, 2014 14:35
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Coulson and the show are satisfied with the answer 'alien blood'. It's closed. I mean they just had his conversation with Fury and didn't even mention it. If it was to continue, they would have brought it up.
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May 14, 2014 14:35
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Waterhaul posted:Because it is indicative of the show's failing. They introduced a mystery, dragged it out at a snails pace and threw an excuse of "magic alien" and are going to drag out the "magic alien" another season and "what really happened to Coulson when he was brought back". It's like with Skye's parents. An entire season of "who is her parents" followed by they are a shadowy figure. If they've already decided that their parents are an established character why not show that and if they haven't then what's the point of hiding their identity? Like the show is basically back to where it started except one of the characters is bad. It's not a mystery though. They literally don't give a gently caress about or know which Alien race it was. What really happened to Coulson was he was given this drug, and had his memories rewritten to remove his knowledge of this procedure. And like every loving show does the shadowy figure to end the season when doing a parent reveal. We don't know that her parents are an established character. We only know that Reina and Skye are connected somehow, and that Reina knows Skye's parent. It probably means they haven't cast her parent for real yet, and also even if we did see the parent or know their name unless it was a comic character we would have no context for it. Dexo fucked around with this message at 14:41 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 14:38
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Dexo posted:It's not a mystery though. They literally don't give a gently caress about or know which Alien race it was. What really happened to Coulson was he was given this drug, and had his memories rewritten to remove his knowledge of this procedure. The finale ends on two plot points. One "what is wrong with Coulson and what did being brought back with alien blood do to him" and "who are Skye's evil parents". The only difference from when the show started is they've added in the alien blood and evil parts. Better shows reveal who the character is rather then keeping them in the dark.
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May 14, 2014 14:41
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God forbid they leave any mysteries open to explore in the next season...  The alien will likely be explored after Guardians of the Galaxy in AoS' next season tie in with the movie. If the show is going to bridge the movies, little things like that are perfect for introducing early, letting fester, and then exploring later.
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May 14, 2014 14:47
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Does it make a difference? Probably a kree. Next season should be interesting because it will be about Coulson rebuilding Shield, then jump to a miniseries about Agent Carter presumably building Shield for the first time.
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May 14, 2014 14:48
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Tuxedo Jack posted:God forbid they leave any mysteries open to explore in the next season... BUT THEY NEED TO COMPLETELY SOLVE ALL THE MYSTERIES NOOOOOW AND NEVER CHANGE THEM UP OR ADD NEW ONES Next season starts airing after GotG airs anyway. So that could be pretty interesting, especially if the Guardians somehow end up contacting Earth.
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May 14, 2014 14:50
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And the fact that the alien blood injection apparently leaves the person with some innate cosmic knowledge is proof positive that they'll be revisiting it as a plot point in the future.
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May 14, 2014 14:50
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Tuxedo Jack posted:God forbid they leave any mysteries open to explore in the next season... My point wasn't that they left things open, they just didn't solve anything. And leaving things to wait until after films are released is terrible. I love LOST but dragging the same plot points over mutliple season is what people kept complaining about the show and why they changed that as it went on.
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May 14, 2014 14:55
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Tuxedo Jack posted:And the fact that the alien blood injection apparently leaves the person with some innate cosmic knowledge is proof positive that they'll be revisiting it as a plot point in the future. That depends on if they're going to go with it being the blood doing that, or if that's something people can just do after the blood does stuff to their brain.
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May 14, 2014 14:57
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Waterhaul posted:My point wasn't that they left things open, they just didn't solve anything. And leaving things to wait until after films are released is terrible. But that might be when they find out about the Kree or whatever alien it is. Remember in this world they have very little knowledge of aliens. They basically just know of Thor and the aliens that attacked in Avengers. Also saying leaving things to wait after films when talking about this show is hilarious, as its when the show picked up I mean in Fringe one of the best finales revealed something that left more things open then they closed, and it did not really solve anything as the questions from the beginning were still there. It seems a bit silly to be mad at hooks for season 2. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 15:02 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 14:58
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Waterhaul posted:The finale ends on two plot points. One "what is wrong with Coulson and what did being brought back with alien blood do to him" and "who are Skye's evil parents". The only difference from when the show started is they've added in the alien blood and evil parts. Better shows reveal who the character is rather then keeping them in the dark. I feel like that's super reductive, at least with regards to Coulson. The beginning of the show was "how and why was coulson revived? why doesn't he know? what are the possible side-effects?" They've completely answered the first two questions, just not the third. Now we know - Coulson was working on a project to resurrect a fallen avenger using refined alien blood that regenerates physical damage. But it made people go crazy unless you tried to hypnotize their memories away, and even that didn't really fix it, so Coulson shut down the project. When Coulson died, Fury used the technique on Coulson himself, because he considers him as important as an Avenger. Coulson didn't know because Fury then used a torturous waking brain surgery technique to erase his memories. As far as side-effects go, the memory-erasure seems to have stabilized Coulson mentally, but he does now have access to alien knowledge of unknown content. I mean, I sorta get what you're saying. You're right that they didn't completely resolve that story. But it's a lot more than the "they didn't solve anything" stance that you seem to be taking. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 15:02
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Its not the same plot point. The serum having a side effect of implanting you with some kind of cosmic knowledge, being the reason it drove people insane, is both a reveal and a completely new plot hook.
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May 14, 2014 15:03
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Waterhaul posted:My point wasn't that they left things open, they just didn't solve anything. And leaving things to wait until after films are released is terrible. They literally solved how Coulson was able to come back to life. He was injected with Alien Blood that healed him, and then had his memories rewritten. They didn't solve the side effects because how the hell could they know what they are without testing data and history(Which is why real drugs have to go through trials and testing before being released to the masses), which is why May is with Coulson. And The Alien Writing thing is one of those side effects manifesting. Skye's family wasn't really resolved, other than us finding out she was an 084, and has some connection to Reina, but that's obviously what Season 2 is going to be about. And Hint: I'm willing to bet that the Alien Blood/Skye's heritage have a link somewhere. Dexo fucked around with this message at 15:05 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 15:03
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XboxPants posted:I feel like that's super reductive, at least with regards to Coulson. The beginning of the show was "how and why was coulson revived? why doesn't he know? what are the possible side-effects?" They've completely answered the first two questions, just not the third. I guess i'll rephrase in that I don't think they resolved any of it well and the "magic alien" is a dumb cop out to set up another mystery rather than just deal with the characters themselves in a good fashion. And I don't trust a show that spent 3/4's of the first season being terrible with the promise of "once Winter Solider comes out it will be good" to not repeat the same mistakes for Season 2 except replace Winter Solider with Avengers 2.
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May 14, 2014 15:12
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Waterhaul posted:I guess i'll rephrase in that I don't think they resolved any of it well and the "magic alien" is a dumb cop out to set up another mystery rather than just deal with the characters themselves in a good fashion. And I don't trust a show that spent 3/4's of the first season being terrible with the promise of "once Winter Solider comes out it will be good" to not repeat the same mistakes for Season 2 except replace Winter Solider with Avengers 2. How would you deal with he was dead? It also ended up being part of the deathlok program and with what Garrett's goal ended up being. It also is a hook for season 2.
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May 14, 2014 15:15
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Avengers 2 would come out after season 2 is over.
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May 14, 2014 15:15
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greatn posted:Avengers 2 would come out after season 2 is over. Won't it come out around the same time as the finale? Or are they having a different schedule next season?
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May 14, 2014 15:17
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Waterhaul posted:I guess i'll rephrase in that I don't think they resolved any of it well and the "magic alien" is a dumb cop out to set up another mystery rather than just deal with the characters themselves in a good fashion. And I don't trust a show that spent 3/4's of the first season being terrible with the promise of "once Winter Solider comes out it will be good" to not repeat the same mistakes for Season 2 except replace Winter Solider with Avengers 2. It's not a dumb cop-out though, it only becomes a cop-out if they don't do anything with it and just use it to give an answer and never bring it up again, which they are very clearly not going to do.
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May 14, 2014 15:18
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Won't it come out around the same time as the finale? Or are they having a different schedule next season? Looks like Avengers 2 is coming out on May 1. So it would come out right before the finale, or due to Carter the back half of the season would air later. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 15:24 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 15:20
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I don't want to further derail the thread, but Waterhaul, I legitimately don't know what you're upset about, after a dozen posts or so... It's a serial. Serials leave threads and hooks for later plots and arcs. Of all the things to be mad at a show about, I feel like this is a bit unfair. It's one hanging plot thread, and it seems to be a major jumping point for the next season.
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May 14, 2014 15:21
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Won't it come out around the same time as the finale? Or are they having a different schedule next season? You're right, it's May 1st, thought it was 17th for some reason.
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May 14, 2014 15:24
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I don't want to further derail the thread, but Waterhaul, I legitimately don't know what you're upset about, after a dozen posts or so... It's a serial. Serials leave threads and hooks for later plots and arcs. Of all the things to be mad at a show about, I feel like this is a bit unfair. It's one hanging plot thread, and it seems to be a major jumping point for the next season. I think it's a bad show that did a lot of bad things and even with improving these strangling plots and their mind set are the underlying issue (along with bad acting and writing) which are keeping the show down. Again for being a terrible show for 3/4s of the run (which I didn't think was a controversial opinion) I don't have much faith on them not redoing this again next season.
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May 14, 2014 15:28
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Tuxedo Jack posted:I don't want to further derail the thread, but Waterhaul, I legitimately don't know what you're upset about, after a dozen posts or so... It's a serial. Serials leave threads and hooks for later plots and arcs. Of all the things to be mad at a show about, I feel like this is a bit unfair. It's one hanging plot thread, and it seems to be a major jumping point for the next season. It is legitimately annoying for a show to drag out mysteries that aren't all that interesting. It is especially annoying when two characters reveal things to each other about said mystery and leave the viewer out which happened repeatedly in this show and this finale. It is 100% clear that the writers/showrunners/whatever don't know who Skye's monster parents should be/don't have the authorization to pick some sort of Marvel cannon or invent new ones.
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May 14, 2014 15:28
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Jagermonster posted:It is 100% clear that the writers/showrunners/whatever don't know who Skye's monster parents should be/don't have the authorization to pick some sort of Marvel cannon or invent new ones. I'm not sure I agree with this. Having Mr. Skye be all bloody/oozy certainly seems to point the writers having something in mind for him. It's hard to backtrack on that and try to say something else was going on there later. "He's totally character _____, he just had a REALLY bad nosebleed back in the season 1 finale, pay it no more mind."
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May 14, 2014 15:35
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Waterhaul posted:I think it's a bad show that did a lot of bad things and even with improving these strangling plots and their mind set are the underlying issue (along with bad acting and writing) which are keeping the show down. Again for being a terrible show for 3/4s of the run (which I didn't think was a controversial opinion) I don't have much faith on them not redoing this again next season. Shrug. I didn't think it was bad. Just painstakingly mediocre. I'm willing to give shows that do show improvement the benefit of the doubt though, because the first few episodes are always made in a vacuum, and it isn't til around mid season where they can see criticism for their show. So if it shows improvement after that point(Which it slowly did) I'm generally pretty pretty optimistic. Maybe it does go back to being mediocre, but shrug. If I ever stop liking a show I just stop watching it(See: Dexter)
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May 14, 2014 15:36
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Much stranger things have happened than a show being crappy for its first season and being amazing for the rest of its run. Even after its turn-around I wouldn't call it great, but they did at least legitimately try some creative, daring stuff, which is more than I can say for most generic network action/spy shows of this caliber.
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May 14, 2014 15:38
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Hakkesshu posted:Much stranger things have happened than a show being crappy for its first season and being amazing for the rest of its run. Even after its turn-around I wouldn't call it great, but they did at least legitimately try some creative, daring stuff, which is more than I can say for most generic network action/spy shows of this caliber. Take a look at most sci-fi shows and their first season is not that great, and while some remain lovely others become great shows. Hell Fringe is a perfect example. The first season is not that great but by the end they figured out what they want to do and it leads to a pretty great show.
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May 14, 2014 15:47
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Teek posted:I'm not sure I agree with this. Having Mr. Skye be all bloody/oozy certainly seems to point the writers having something in mind for him. It's hard to backtrack on that and try to say something else was going on there later. "He's totally character _____, he just had a REALLY bad nosebleed back in the season 1 finale, pay it no more mind." That oozy thing could be a myriad number of powers/features/ailments what have you, it really does seem like they are severely limited and controlled by where the produces or the cinematic universe want to go are trying to buy time to figure it out. AVClub.com summarized the lack of payoff well in their review of the finale: AV Club posted:Did this show seriously just end its first season without revealing what Project: T.A.H.I.T.I. is? Coulson drawing random marks on a wall doesn’t tell us what the blue thing in the tank was, and after a season of teasing us with the truth behind Coulson’s resurrection, it still hasn’t delivered the full story. It was the mystery that this entire show was built on, so I assumed this episode would offer some straightforward answers, but instead, “The Beginning Of The End” delivers a lot of cryptic clues setting up the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It’s a solid chapter that wraps up the Garrett and Ward Hydra plot with a neat bow while setting Coulson and his team on a clear path for next season, but there’s a lot of teasing where there should be more substantial story. I know other people have brought it up, but I'm a fan of Lost too, and Lost fans know better than almost anyone that television shows can only drag out mysteries so far, even if they just serve to motivate character development at the heart of the story. The viewer should never know less than the characters. With this show, they are really flaunting that we are more in the dark than everybody in the show.
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May 14, 2014 15:48
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Jagermonster posted:That oozy thing could be a myriad number of powers/features/ailments what have you, it really does seem like they are severely limited and controlled by where the produces or the cinematic universe want to go are trying to buy time to figure it out. Counterpoint: The AV Club reviewer literally didn't pick up on the fact that the "Incentives program" was the family members that they were holding hostage in a facility. When it was all but stated. Also they flat out said that TAHITI was the Alien Blood treatment, along with the memory wiping. Jesus that review was bad and written by someone who can't pay attention.
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May 14, 2014 15:53
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I think you guys are being a little overly critical. The AoS threads might also carry over into the Netflix series or the Agent Carter prequel or even the movies. The show had a rocky start, but they've proven, I think, that they're willing to carry threads through multiple mediums. AoS basically ignored Thor 2 with a dew minor references and a small crossocer, but was much more reactionary to TWS. I think now that they've dipped their toes further in, we're going to see a lot more synergy between the properties. Marvel & Disney clearly know what they're doing. At least from my perspective.
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May 14, 2014 15:54
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People treat AVClub like it's the god drat Bible rather than a bunch of low on work screenwriters.
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May 14, 2014 15:55
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bobkatt013 posted:Take a look at most sci-fi shows and their first season is not that great, and while some remain lovely others become great shows. Hell Fringe is a perfect example. The first season is not that great but by the end they figured out what they want to do and it leads to a pretty great show. I don't think it's fair to compare Agents of SHIELD to Fringe. Fringe was a show, like a lot of shows that didn't really know where to go but found its footing. LOST was the same. Agents of SHIELD knew exactly what it was pre-Winter Solider, a bad holding pattern. It knew and accepted that it would change things around when Cap 2 came along, it was not feedback from fans or poor ratings that caused them to change it or adapt.
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May 14, 2014 15:58
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I haven't watched the last 2 episodes, did Skye become good to watch yet? May, Fitz, and Simmons have all grown on me. Coulson has been disappointingly lame, and Skye seems like she'd be good in a completely different place. I think a big part is that Fitz, Simmons, and May are the only ones who seem like they belong at SHIELD. Coulson spent too much time freaking out about a spy agency that keeps secrets, and Skye just isn't a character.
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May 14, 2014 16:06
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Waterhaul posted:I don't think it's fair to compare Agents of SHIELD to Fringe. Fringe was a show, like a lot of shows that didn't really know where to go but found its footing. LOST was the same. Agents of SHIELD knew exactly what it was pre-Winter Solider, a bad holding pattern. It knew and accepted that it would change things around when Cap 2 came along, it was not feedback from fans or poor ratings that caused them to change it or adapt. I dunno, there are lots of people who'd say that LOST's best season was its first one. Fringe knew where it was going, they'd just mucked up the pace a bit and altered that part way through season 1. But I definitely agree that they hosed up by just putting off doing anything good until Cap 2.
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May 14, 2014 16:07
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StumblyWumbly posted:I haven't watched the last 2 episodes, did Skye become good to watch yet? May, Fitz, and Simmons have all grown on me. Coulson has been disappointingly lame, and Skye seems like she'd be good in a completely different place. Well, she's better. They seem to recognize that she had problems; recently they revealed that her legal name is literally "Mary Sue". I mean Waterhaul definitely has a point that not all of the show's improvement came because they solved actual problems with the show, but some of it definitely did. Compare the writing, specifically the wit, of the first couple episodes to the last few episodes. Early on they used the "speak english, please!  " joke two episodes in a row. Lately they've had great stuff like the west texas hydra cheerleader.Saying that the only reason the last 1/3 of the season was improved was because they were allowed to change the plot is playing down just how terrible the show was early on.
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May 14, 2014 16:13
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Teek posted:I'm not sure I agree with this. Having Mr. Skye be all bloody/oozy certainly seems to point the writers having something in mind for him. It's hard to backtrack on that and try to say something else was going on there later. "He's totally character _____, he just had a REALLY bad nosebleed back in the season 1 finale, pay it no more mind." I think they didn't to get into the specifics of who the blue alien was until GOTG aired so when they go back into Season 2 the audience will understand what a Kree is.
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May 14, 2014 16:48
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