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The Kins posted:No offense to Croteam, but Serious Sam has a very different gameplay flow to Doom or Quake - the environment is way less of a factor in single-player combat, it's all about managing the horde and prioritizing targets while dodging and backpedding like mad. I don't think any developer can properly reboot Doom without making the original Doom. Labyrinthine levels, keys, monster closets, and the occasional trap is Doom but everybody is after that CoD money so you get boring scripted encounters and linear hallways. I'd still take Doom: Painkiller over Doom: Hide and Heal.
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May 14, 2014 17:54
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Shadow Hog posted:Not sure how to feel about this, but George Broussard had a stroke today, apparently within the past hour of me writing this post. 
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May 14, 2014 17:57
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The problem with making Doom exactly like Doom 1 and 2 though is that some aspects haven't aged all too well and can be annoying, the keycard hunts being one of them. The recent Rise of the Triad game was as faithful a remake as you can ask for but what dragged it down for me was the heavy platforming elements that were also present in the original. At the same time I wouldn't want it to be a linear, scripted CoD fest either. Ideally I'd make it primarily a multiplayer game while the forces of Hell invade Earth and 8+ players fight them off in somewhat sandboxy environments but that's just me.
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May 14, 2014 17:58
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Mr. Fortitude posted:At the same time I wouldn't want it to be a linear, scripted CoD fest either. Ideally I'd make it primarily a multiplayer game while the forces of Hell invade Earth and 8+ players fight them off in somewhat sandboxy environments but that's just me. Goddamn you're not much better than someone who wants it to be a scripted CoD clone, at least then it'd have something in common with Doom 1/2. A major part of why Doom was fun is the levels were mostly well layed out and interesting to play, along with the tight and solid shooting. Nothing about "sandbox coop adventure" makes me think either of those attributes.
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May 14, 2014 18:06
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That id software news is depressing, it sounds like the studio needs to be wound up altogether.
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May 14, 2014 18:07
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al-azad posted:I don't think any developer can properly reboot Doom without making the original Doom. Labyrinthine levels, keys, monster closets, and the occasional trap is Doom but everybody is after that CoD money so you get boring scripted encounters and linear hallways. Bloody screen, SO REAL! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QuE36_hZuE
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May 14, 2014 18:09
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People like to say games like Painkiller and Serious Sam and Hard Reset are throwbacks to Doom but they really aren't. Those are just straight up shooting galleries.
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May 14, 2014 18:28
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The Kins posted:loving oof. Hopefully there's no permanent damage. https://twitter.com/georgeb3dr/status/466612028086697984 georgeb3dr posted:Speech bad but will recover.
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May 14, 2014 18:34
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Overbite posted:People like to say games like Painkiller and Serious Sam and Hard Reset are throwbacks to Doom but they really aren't. Those are just straight up shooting galleries. Doom is a shooting gallery. The major difference is that there's a level to navigate but at the end you're stilling mowing down hundreds of monsters per level. If making good levels is keeping lazy designers from making a good Doom game then give me a half-assed game with a good engine and the fans will make the maps themselves.
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May 14, 2014 18:47
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Mr. Fortitude posted:The problem with making Doom exactly like Doom 1 and 2 though is that some aspects haven't aged all too well and can be annoying, the keycard hunts being one of them. The recent Rise of the Triad game was as faithful a remake as you can ask for but what dragged it down for me was the heavy platforming elements that were also present in the original. There are a lot of great custom maps for Doom that manage to feature a lot of fun exploration and shooting without dragging everything out with dull key hunts. It's not some problem with Doom itself, it just comes down to good level design.
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May 14, 2014 18:51
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straight jerkers posted:There are a lot of great custom maps for Doom that manage to feature a lot of fun exploration and shooting without dragging everything out with dull key hunts. It's not some problem with Doom itself, it just comes down to good level design. Yeah. I honestly wouldn't recommend the vanilla Doom 2 campaign anymore, as there are vastly better levels available. The core heart of Doom's gameplay, though? Rock solid. As much as some purists might bitch there's a ton of potential variants that can be spun off it, but the mix of enemies, guns, speed and fragility is key. And just to piss some people off, I'd suggest Hellbound as a solid campaign replacement. Same concept (Hell on Earth), but goes much further with it, and does scale, coherency and setpieces better than Doom 2 ever did. It has some low points (as you'd expect from 32 large maps by one guy), but nothing even close to the worst parts of Doom 2. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 19:10
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Dominic White posted:Yeah. I honestly wouldn't recommend the vanilla Doom 2 campaign anymore, as there are vastly better levels available. The core heart of Doom's gameplay, though? Rock solid. As much as some purists might bitch there's a ton of potential variants that can be spun off it, but the mix of enemies, guns, speed and fragility is key. Hellbound is loving fantastic. By itself i'd argue its worth throwing  at someone, alongside some of the major gameplay shifting mods (Such as project MSX) it'd be a whole game worthy of a place on steam. That Finish bit.
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May 14, 2014 20:48
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For anyone getting into Doom 2, I'd recommend just skipping the vanilla levels, and hitting Hellbound. No gameplay mods needed, but one of the general aesthetic tune-ups like Doom Expanded or Smooth Doom wouldn't go amiss. A few extra particle/lighting effects and some smoother animations go a long way.
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May 14, 2014 20:51
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Shadow Hog posted:Not sure how to feel about this, but George Broussard had a stroke today, apparently within the past hour of me writing this post.
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May 14, 2014 20:59
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Is Hellbound that flavor of the month thing from a while back with really finely detailed but massively overlong levels where every single fight is 20 hell knights and 50 pinkies? Why don't we recommend something actually good and smartly designed like Scythe? Why are we recommending anything? On the topic of people misunderstanding Doom, I found this decent article (http://blog.danbo.vg/post/50094276897/the-most-misunderstood-game-of-all-time) on a blog which may or may not be run by Tiger Schwert. There's also a really good taking-down-a-peg of Rock Paper Shotgun but that's neither here nor there. ExMortis fucked around with this message at 21:08 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 21:04
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I've joked about it, but as time wears on I'm becoming more serious: they should just make Doom 4 a new iwad and use the engine port done by Nerve for console and modern Windows releases.
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May 14, 2014 21:10
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ExMortis posted:Is Hellbound that flavor of the month thing from a while back with really finely detailed but massively overlong levels where every single fight is 20 hell knights and 50 pinkies? Why don't we recommend something actually good and smartly designed like Scythe? Why are we recommending anything? This is why I said it was a suggestion that'd piss people off. I personally thought it had a really good mix of encounter types, but it's one of those campaigns that the Doomworld hardcore rejected. The reason I tried it out was because Moldy (aka Cyriak) had nothing but glowing praise for it, but he seems a bit more open-minded than a lot of their regular reviewers. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 21:20 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 21:13
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Shadow Hog posted:Not sure how to feel about this, but George Broussard had a stroke today, apparently within the past hour of me writing this post. I'm not a big fan of George Broussard, but nobody deserves to have a stroke. It doesn't look like he's suffered any permanent damage so far. 
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May 14, 2014 21:19
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Dominic White posted:This is why I said it was a suggestion that'd piss people off. I personally thought it had a really good mix of encounter types, but it's one of those campaigns that the Doomworld hardcore rejected. I dunno if it gets better later but I could stand maybe the first 10 levels and the mix of encounter types I, er, encountered was: - A hell knight appears in front of me - A hell knight appears behind me - 1d6 hell knights and 2d10 former humans - An arachnotron is in a large open space - A giant closet opens with 50 monsters of two different types and I back way the hell up and pick off the ones that aren't infighting If we're trying to pick something for this fictional character to play instead of vanilla Doom 2, why pick something divisive and edgy, just go with tried and true.
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May 14, 2014 21:21
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ExMortis posted:If we're trying to pick something for this fictional character to play instead of vanilla Doom 2, why pick something divisive and edgy, just go with tried and true. Because it's something I enjoyed, that others have enjoyed and I would personally recommend to others. If that's what passes for edgy these days, then don't dare look at what's by far the highest rated/most downloaded Doom mod out there.
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May 14, 2014 21:32
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ExMortis posted:
Brutal Doom? 
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May 14, 2014 21:33
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Final Doom: TNT is a better sequel than Doom 2, in my opinion. Literally the first thing you see is a beserk pack, so within seconds of starting the game you're punching things so hard they explode. Also, I really think Zenimax would be better off canning id and Doom 4 at this rate. Surely there's no way of getting a decent ROI now that the entire tech division has jumped ship.
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May 14, 2014 21:38
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There's always Doom/Doom 2 the Way id Did, I suppose? ...I only played Episode 1 of DtWiD and the secret stages of D2tWiD, admittedly, but they were pretty solid (especially MAP31 of D2tWiD, holy crap).
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May 14, 2014 21:40
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Shadow Hog posted:Not sure how to feel about this, but George Broussard had a stroke today, apparently within the past hour of me writing this post. I don't care how much you did or did not like DNF, a stroke is a terrible thing to happen to anyone. I hope he comes out okay Dominic White posted:Yeah. I honestly wouldn't recommend the vanilla Doom 2 campaign anymore, as there are vastly better levels available. The core heart of Doom's gameplay, though? Rock solid. As much as some purists might bitch there's a ton of potential variants that can be spun off it, but the mix of enemies, guns, speed and fragility is key. Since you're going to make a suggestion to piss people off, suggest Hellbound with Brutal Doom running on Doomsday or something. Go for the full angry-nerd trifecta. It's Doomier than Doom! I don't think I'd suggest Scythe as a Doom campaign replacement unless something is done about the final few levels. I got to Hatred, I think, and it just stonewalled me. I did every other level in three lives or so, but I just couldn't kill the hundreds of revenants and dozens of cyberdemons required. Something with a bit smoother difficulty progression would be better. efb.
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May 14, 2014 21:44
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I don't really get along with the The Way iD Did series, because they arbitrarily limit themselves to mapping as if they were working with mid 90s tools. Mappers can do some amazing things with just a limit-removing port these days. The reason I'd suggest Hellbound is because it's thematically the same as Doom 2, but conveys the idea of you being in the middle of a demonic invasion of Earth so much better, in large part due to the much greater map detail. There's no cutscenes, but there are some really impressive setpiece battles and a bit of environmental storytelling along the way. Doom 2's city maps looked like weird brick/marble boxes with the occasional door on. Hellbound has factories and tower blocks and railyards and other identifiable locations, and when you encounter weird hellish stuff it tends to be integrated much more interestingly with the environment, like fleshy demon-growths spreading out of pipes or engraved temple walls visible behind cracked brickwork. Also, yeah, I'd not recommend Scythe. Not only is it just a kinda arbitrarily paced map-pack, but it's pretty goddamn hardcore. Dominic White fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 21:45
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Dominic White posted:Because it's something I enjoyed, that others have enjoyed and I would personally recommend to others. If that's what passes for edgy these days, then don't dare look at what's by far the highest rated/most downloaded Doom mod out there. You said "the hardcore rejected it" and "to piss people off, I suggest..." so uh, I was just kinda rolling with the facetious punches, don't get all sad about it. Seriously though, don't you think Hellbound is kind of a bad "just getting into Doom/replace vanilla levels with" wad? I'm not saying it's not worth playing for anyone (I hated the hell out of it) but it's a little meandery/low-level slaughtermappy. My 5-star finished wads folder has Scythe, Scythe 2, BTSX, and Vanguard in it... out of those BTSX might not be a good first, and Vanguard is only like 12 levels or something. I think Scythe(s) do a really good job of mixing things up and keeping levels punchy and to the point. And yeah the last couple levels of Scythe 1 are rough, but I have never once bothered beating any Icon of Sin "legit" and I managed them, so... plus difficulty levels exist?
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May 14, 2014 21:50
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Dominic White posted:The reason I'd suggest Hellbound is because it's thematically the same as Doom 2, but conveys the idea of you being in the middle of a demonic invasion of Earth so much better, in large part due to the much greater map detail. There's no cutscenes, but there are some really impressive setpiece battles and a bit of environmental storytelling along the way. And this is why i also suggest Hellbound. But to be fair, Project MSX gives you ALOT of tools for murdering shitloads of monsters then merrily I might have to try hellbound with Psychic and see how it stands up. Ah yes, BTSX. I'd actually lump that in alongside Hellbound for a new person to try. It's pretty strong.
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May 14, 2014 22:07
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Keiya posted:I've joked about it, but as time wears on I'm becoming more serious: they should just make Doom 4 a new iwad and use the engine port done by Nerve for console and modern Windows releases. Hell, get some of the better community mappers together with like one artist and one musician, give them what would by Zenimax standards be an insignificant amount of money, tell them to go nuts. Maybe find Romero and give him a few bucks to stand around and talk about how metal everything should be. Guaranteed success. Will it make a gazillion dollars? No, but people might actually not hate it.
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May 14, 2014 22:13
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ExMortis posted:And yeah the last couple levels of Scythe 1 are rough, but I have never once bothered beating any Icon of Sin "legit" and I managed them, so... plus difficulty levels exist? I was playing on HMP  I'm not good at Doom.
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May 14, 2014 22:22
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al-azad posted:If making good levels is keeping lazy designers from making a good Doom game then give me a half-assed game with a good engine and the fans will make the maps themselves. May I redirect you to goon project Gunscape: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605284 Closest you're going to get to Doom anytime soon, and it is exactly what you are describing. Dominic White posted:I don't really get along with the The Way iD Did series, because they arbitrarily limit themselves to mapping as if they were working with mid 90s tools. Mappers can do some amazing things with just a limit-removing port these days. Hellbound's level design is absolutely bonkers. Some of the best available in the Doom engine. Its enemy placement however is not. If you're not a seasoned Doom vet, playing Hellbound is both a nightmare and a slog. Even if you know what you're doing, it can still be a slog. If you're going to reccomend newbies check out Hellbound, they should do it with -nomonsters 
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May 14, 2014 22:24
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Dominic White posted:Because it's something I enjoyed, that others have enjoyed and I would personally recommend to others. If that's what passes for edgy these days, then don't dare look at what's by far the highest rated/most downloaded Doom mod out there. Alien TC?
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May 14, 2014 22:25
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Super sonic Doom is one of my favourite TCs, despite how dated parts of it are. Serpent Resurrection, by the same author, is also quite literally epic (It's for Hexen, but you've got to play it) Also in slightly better Duke related news, a community project I made a map for called 'Duke Hard' is going to be released soon. It's inspired by 'Going down' for Doom, but a bit more standard in that you're climbing a tower instead. Each floor was made by a mapper and I think the final count stands at about 16 different mappers? I'll make sure to post about it here once it's released.
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May 14, 2014 22:34
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Zaphod42 posted:May I redirect you to goon project Gunscape: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3605284 Seconding this. For a finished game, Gunscape is already pretty dope. For a loving pre-alpha it's nuts.
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May 14, 2014 22:40
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Speaking of engines, I'm not sure if this was posted before but OHHHHHHHHHH poo poo http://vectorpoem.com/deck/ quote:DECK will be a public domain collection of game assets that will, combined with the modernized GZDoom version of the Doom engine and a resource and level editing program such as SLADE3, allow you to create 3D games using one of the most proven game engines of the past 20 years. The project will also provide documentation to help newcomers learn the basics. Short of the matter is that this dude (whom you may remember from Arcadia Demade and Lessons from Doom) is trying to tackle all of the licensing issues and problems in the Doom engine and wrangle them out to make a version that's completely capable of working as a standalone game development kit. It looks like it's just starting out and barely anything is done yet, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on.
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May 15, 2014 00:50
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Remember the new Duke Nukem game Interceptor was teasing a while ago? Looks like they stripped it of Duke Nukem and put a "reimagined" version of Bombshell, a girl that was supposed to appear in DNF, as the main character. http://www.bombshellgame.com/ I'm not 100% sold on the game, but I'll probably buy it just to support Interceptor and the amazing job they're done with supporting the Apogee/3DR community so far.
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May 15, 2014 03:05
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closeted republican posted:Remember the new Duke Nukem game Interceptor was teasing a while ago? Looks like they stripped it of Duke Nukem and put a "reimagined" version of Bombshell, a girl that was supposed to appear in DNF, as the main character. I'm intrigued, but that was a super lovely trailer. The second half was completely pointless, at least the first half set up the story. Although, if you do watch it, stick around, there's an amusing bit of what I assume to be an outtake in there. Edit: Basically, in a 3 and a half minute video I kinda want to see a bit of the game. catlord fucked around with this message at 03:39 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 03:36
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Scythe is a really good choice for Baby's First WAD. Hellbound is terrible except as an exercise in gawking at the cool vanilla architecture in -nomonsters. Even if it wasn't bad, I still wouldn't recommend it as someone's first .wad
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May 15, 2014 03:37
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closeted republican posted:Remember the new Duke Nukem game Interceptor was teasing a while ago? Looks like they stripped it of Duke Nukem and put a "reimagined" version of Bombshell, a girl that was supposed to appear in DNF, as the main character. Wow, look at that 3DR logo.  edit: 
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May 15, 2014 03:49
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The question is, was it a better or worse teaser trailer for the game than this classic?
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May 15, 2014 04:09
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ExMortis posted:Is Hellbound that flavor of the month thing from a while back with really finely detailed but massively overlong levels where every single fight is 20 hell knights and 50 pinkies? Why don't we recommend something actually good and smartly designed like Scythe? Why are we recommending anything? Recommending Scythe to a neophyte Doom player to play instead of the Doom2 default WAD would be a little much, don't you think? That's what the suggestion was originally about, anyways. I haven't played Hellbound so I don't know if it's really a good idea for a new player, either. That said, I think Doom2.wad is just fine for someone who is actually a new player. It'll basically give you a well-rounded and (mostly) fair experience, especially if you're bold and learning to pistol-start every map.
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