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The koos reading is true.
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May 17, 2014 02:42
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computer parts posted:I mean we know from the OT that the Galactic Republic fell, replaced by the Empire, and that Anakin must have been a major part of that because he was tapped by the Emperor to become a Sith Lord. How else do you think that would happen except in a tragedy (as in Shakespearean Tragedy) format? Well the main thing seems to be that people expected Anakin to be a cool, likeable, heroic person before he was seduce by the dark side. But he's not really at all, and there's less of a turn to the dark side than a shift in situation which reveals that he always cared more about power than anything else. And at that moment the Jedi don't have any of it.
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May 17, 2014 02:49
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The great twist of the prequels is that Anakin was never "seduced by the Dark Side," and indeed there was no grand moment of betrayal as Obi-Wan claimed. The reason he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights" was because he quite justifiably came to believe that "the Jedi are evil." He was always a power-hungry killer, which is a valid definition of the word "hero." The true conflict is not between good and evil, but old and young. Palpatine is already elderly when he sets his plan into motion, and Yoda has been the leader of the Jedi for centuries. Luke learns what he can get from his old masters, but only truly ascends once he stops doing what they say. Darth Vader is the villain until he stops obstructing the next generation, and he brings peace to the galaxy only once he has killed the last old man and then died. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 03:14
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zVxTeflon posted:The koos reading is true. He's not incorrect; he simply follows the dark side. As a basic analogy, the dark side is knowing angels are an alien species that inhabit the moons of Iago or whatever. The light side is understanding that Darth Vader himself is an angel of justice.
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May 17, 2014 03:34
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sassassin posted:Are you also annoyed that we see that Anakin becomes Vader, ruining the surprise in Empire? You can watch them in either order. They're not "meant" to be viewed in a specific way. I'm not aware of anything in the PT that relies on knowledge of the OT to make sense. Bongo Bill posted:The great twist of the prequels is that Anakin was never "seduced by the Dark Side," and indeed there was no grand moment of betrayal as Obi-Wan claimed. The reason he "helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights" was because he quite justifiably came to believe that "the Jedi are evil." He was always a power-hungry killer, which is a valid definition of the word "hero." I'm not sure what you're saying. What part of "murdering children and supporting an insane dictator" makes you think Anakin wasn't seduced by the dark side? Jerk McJerkface posted:I agree with this statement and the ramifications are insane. He is a bit of an audience identification character. Saying he's the protagonist is indeed a bit insane, though, and I disagree. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:25 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 04:20
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Benedick Cuckold posted:I'm not sure what you're saying. What part of "murdering children and supporting an insane dictator" makes you think Anakin wasn't seduced by the dark side? The point of my post is that there was no "seduction." He didn't even give in to his hate - he was already a powerful Jedi because his hate made him powerful. Killing the Jedi (even the brainwashed children) is entirely consistent with his previous ideals - it's just that until that moment he hadn't realized the Jedi were the villains in his story. "But they're children!" and no more innocent than the Tuskens he slaughtered on Tatooine. And Palpatine is quite sane. Evil, and piously devoted to the power of hatred, but sane. Why support him? Because he doesn't believe he's powerful enough to do it on his own (as soon as Luke comes along he proposes a coup). Vader doesn't like the Empire - he openly criticizes the Tarkin Doctrine, executes his officers every time they employ distinctively Imperial intimidation tactics, and hires bounty hunters because he knows they'll get the job done better than the navy - but he will use it for his own purposes. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 04:34 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 04:28
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Bongo Bill posted:The point of my post is that there was no "seduction." He didn't even give in to his hate - he was already a powerful Jedi because his hate made him powerful. Killing the Jedi (even the brainwashed children) is entirely consistent with his previous ideals - it's just that until that moment he hadn't realized the Jedi were the villains in his story. "But they're children!" and no more innocent than the Tuskens he slaughtered on Tatooine. He didn't kill the Tuskens because of any "ideals" he held. He killed them because he was in a blind rage over the death of his mother. He knew it was wrong, and he believed it was wrong, but he did it anyway because he lost control. The difference between the slaughter of the Tusken children and the slaughter of the Jedi children is that Anakin did the latter with a clear head, knowing full well what he was doing. In his heart he knew it was wrong, but he did it because he was willing to do anything to stop his wife from dying. He may have rationalized it to himself the same way you're doing when you say the Jedi were villains, but he didn't actually believe it. That's why, when it's all over and the adrenaline rush has worn off after the death of the Separatist Council, you see him shed a tear. The whole point of the movies is that Anakin is a good man who knowingly did bad things because of his selfish attachments. Why else would he need to be redeemed? Do you even think Anakin did anything wrong? quote:And Palpatine is quite sane. Evil, and piously devoted to the power of hatred, but sane. Why support him? Because he doesn't believe he's powerful enough to do it on his own (as soon as Luke comes along he proposes a coup). Vader doesn't like the Empire - he openly criticizes the Tarkin Doctrine, executes his officers every time they employ distinctively Imperial intimidation tactics, and hires bounty hunters because he knows they'll get the job done better than the navy - but he will use it for his own purposes. I concede that Palpatine may be "sane" in a certain sense, but he's still evil, and quite obviously so, which is the point. But the reason Vader doesn't like the Empire is because he isn't in charge of it. He has no problem with Imperial intimidation tactics; he employs them himself constantly. That's not why he choked all those officers. He choked Motti because he was disrespecting him and belittling the power of the Force. He choked Ozzel because he made a moronic mistake. He choked Needa for the same reason. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 04:59 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 04:54
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Benedick Cuckold posted:He didn't kill the Tuskens because of any "ideals" he held. He killed them because he was in a blind rage over the death of his mother. He knew it was wrong, and he believed it was wrong, but he did it anyway because he lost control. The difference between the slaughter of the Tusken children and the slaughter of the Jedi children is that Anakin did the latter with a clear head, knowing full well what he was doing. In his heart he knew it was wrong, but he did it because he was willing to do anything to stop his wife from dying. He may have rationalized it to himself the same way you're doing when you say the Jedi were villains, but he didn't actually believe it. That's why, when it's all over and the adrenaline rush has worn off after the death of the Separatist Council, you see him shed a tear. The whole point of the movies is that Anakin is a good man who knowingly made wrong choices because of his selfish attachments. Why else would he need to be redeemed? Do you even think Anakin did anything wrong? Anakin Skywalker hates evil. He also does evil things, and not coincidentally he hates himself. He draws on the power of his hate frequently, both before and after getting a shiny black medical apparatus and a new Sith title. My entire point, and I'll repeat this as many times as it takes for you to see it through the minor details, is that there was no "turn" - he's the same person, with the same attitudes, both before and after deciding to kill a Jedi. Betraying the Jedi Order is not turning to the Dark Side because the Jedi Order were waist deep in the Dark Side. They are part of the imbalance to which the prophecy referred. (It's not turning away from the Dark Side either, because he stalls for twenty years before dealing with the Sith, who are also part of that imbalance.) quote:I concede that Palpatine may be "sane" in a certain sense, but he's still evil, and quite obviously so, which is the point. But the reason Vader doesn't like the Empire is because he isn't in charge of it. He has no problem with Imperial intimidation tactics; he employs them himself constantly. He chokes Motti because he was dissing the power of the Force. He chokes Ozzel because he made a moronic mistake. He chokes Needa for the same reason. Believing that a mere space station is the ultimate power in the galaxy, or believing that you can just make a huge show of force and scare the rebels into surrendering, are emblematic of specifically Imperial attitudes. They're quite different from the arrogance and intimidation that Anakin Skywalker uses to defeat his enemies. Edit: let me put it this way. In both Attack of the Clones and The Empire Strikes Back, Anakin lays out his motivations very clearly, and it hasn't changed much in the intervening years. He wants to help someone "make" those in power stop bickering and decide what's best, and to "put an end to this destructive conflict" and "bring order to the galaxy." In other words, he believes in peace and justice, which the Jedi Order famously failed to safeguard despite that being the purpose of their existence. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 05:13 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:01
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Anakin being a dick with no dash, no real heroism, and positive views on fascism was a mindfuck considering a lot of people were probably expecting him to be more of a Han Solo-type character and not such a petulant bitch. But I guess that's the 'fatal flaw' that makes the Shakespearean tragedy aspect of it tick. No one would have guessed back in 1999 that Anakin was just a dick and would have been a dick whether he was a Jedi or an accountant. I know we're circlejerking over how bad most EU was, but Tales of the Jedi was quality and I wish the prequels had a similar kind of tone to it to be honest. Jedi and Sith making big sacrifices in major warfare, good characters, Jedi that are more superhero than boring space monk, great universe building, good musing on the power and philosophy of light and dark powers, and tons of epic moments all centered around the main hero gradually falling to the dark side and losing his soul (for reasons that make sense too!) in those ridiculous star wars to the horror of his loved ones. It's everything I imagined the back story of the OT to be like when I first saw them. It seemed so hard to screw up new Star Wars but here we are. It's so weird how little entertainment is in the prequels on the surface and while the theories discussed in this thread are interesting, I personally just think Lucas was rushing them out to get that guaranteed  .Edit: Basically I want a Tales of the Jedi movie trilogy, Disney. No, retcon the prequels and try again with Tales of the Jedi as the guide. Dishwasher fucked around with this message at 05:23 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:12
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Bongo Bill posted:Anakin Skywalker hates evil. He also does evil things, and not coincidentally he hates himself. He draws on the power of his hate frequently, both before and after getting a shiny black medical apparatus and a new Sith title. My entire point, and I'll repeat this as many times as it takes for you to see it through the minor details, is that there was no "turn" - he's the same person, with the same attitudes, both before and after deciding to kill a Jedi. I admit I must have misunderstood your point, because it seems so trivial. Of course Anakin's prior attitudes influenced his later personality as Darth Vader. As we see in Episode II, he sympathizes with authoritarian power structures. He hates failure. If someone fucks with his loved ones, he is emotionally capable of committing mass murder (even though he regrets it afterwards). But of course Anakin made a conscious choice to do evil in Episode III. Anakin may have come to genuinely believe the Jedi were evil, but he knew exterminating them wasn't the right thing to do, and he knew pledging allegiance to Palpatine was wrong as well. He did these things not because of his deeply held convictions but because of his emotional needs. His preexisting authoritarian tendencies and hunger for power made it easier for him to go along with everything that happened, but they aren't the point. Anakin didn't really give a poo poo about galactic politics and the relative merits of democracy versus empire. He didn't really give a poo poo that Mace was about to violate the ideals of the Jedi order and kill a "helpless" prisoner. He just wanted to feel safe and loved and to have that feeling last forever, and he'd do anything to make that happen. His mother once encapsulated that feeling for him, and after she died Padme took over. He turned on the Jedi because the Jedi couldn't make Padme live forever, and Palpatine apparently could. The Jedi's apparent transgressions made it easier for him to justify his decision to himself, but ultimately he knew it was all bullshit. After Padme died, he went along with Palpatine because he didn't think he had a choice in the matter, that nothing he did in the future could ever make up for what he did in the past. Luke showed him that he did have a choice. I'm just not sure what it means to say "there was no turn." One minute he's sobbing over his impulsive slaughter of a village of innocents and hesitating when asked to wantonly behead someone he hates with all his being. The next minute he's engaging in the premeditated mass murder of innocent children. You didn't notice a change there? Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:32 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:21
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The only change is in the color of his uniform. He's on the other side of the war - but the same of the Force. The Jedi trainees he kills are no different than the sand people. Their people wronged him, so he unleashes his wrath, and then although he feels sad about killing the innocent along with the guilty, he doesn't change. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 05:38 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:34
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Anakin doesn't know killing the Jedi is evil. He thinks the exact opposite. Neither him nor Obiwan are lying during the Ep3 finale. There's no turn. He doesn't even have to swap his uniform. As soon as we see him as an adult, he is already wearing black.
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May 17, 2014 05:39
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Good point. I should say, the color of his lightsaber.
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May 17, 2014 05:42
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Neo Rasa posted:Where'd this clone army come from? I missed this. Sifo-Dyas did exist, and the Jedi were clearly uncertain as to whether the timeline of his death made his ordering the clone army impossible. Given the circumstances, I think the Jedi can be forgiven for not assuming that the clone army was actually secretly created by a Sith Lord for the purpose of fighting against his own faction for three years in a protracted war before turning on the Jedi and handing the galaxy over to the Chancellor who was also secretly a Sith Lord. Bongo Bill posted:The only change is in the color of his uniform. He's on the other side of the war - but the same of the Force. He does change. After killing the Sand People he repented and went on serving the side that prohibits such things. After killing the Jedi children, he didn't repent, and went right on serving the side that says killing children is A-OK. Luke seems to think Vader can be redeemed because deep down he's still the good man named Anakin Skywalker. I suppose you would say Luke is wrong about why Vader is capable of being redeemed? If he never changed in the first place, I guess Luke must have simply inspired Vader/Anakin to be a completely new person he never was before. But then why at the end does he show up as Hayden Christensen circa Episode III? PeterWeller posted:Anakin doesn't know killing the Jedi is evil. He thinks the exact opposite. Neither him nor Obiwan are lying during the Ep3 finale. Of course he knows killing children is evil. What makes you think he doesn't? Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:55 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:49
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They are Jedi. He thinks they are evil. There is good in him. There is also evil. Both have been in him from the start. He thinks he is doing good when he destroys the Jedi. Luke knows there is still good in him. He didn't switch cosmic sides.
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May 17, 2014 05:56
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The "side" that says killing children is wrong is also the side that went down onto a planet that runs on illegal child slavery and upheld peace and justice by freeing exactly one slave, whom they kept too busy to come back and rescue his mother for ten whole years. The Jedi are evil; Palpatine was in control of both sides of the Clone Wars; the conflict is between the Dark Side and the Dark Side But They're In Denial About It. Anakin did not change sides because the side he was on before and the side he was on after are actually the same side. He's a sinner, and like all sinners he can be redeemed, even if he does go by Darth So-and-So and say things like "It is too late for me." Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 06:05 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 05:59
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Yeah, it's not loving D&D. He didn't switch alignments and take a level in sith after bagging some of those sweet Mace Windu XPs.
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May 17, 2014 06:08
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When I say "The Jedi are evil" I refer to what Anakin referred to when he said that, and when he said that he referred to the Jedi Order. Luke never experienced the Jedi Order - all he knows about the Jedi is that they are the guardians of peace and justice. When Luke declares himself and Anakin both to have been Jedi he is not referring to the systematic failure and hypocrisy that Yoda presided over. Both Skywalkers end up rejecting both Yoda and Palpatine, who together represent the Dark Side (one of them unwittingly)
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May 17, 2014 06:13
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hhhat posted:I guess there's only so many ways for me to say the prequel screenplays were poorly written and executed. And yet there are people in this thread that can talk all day about how they were good. Makes you think.
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May 17, 2014 09:28
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Tender Bender posted:Arguing that the prequels suck should be the easiest thing ever but everyone who tries in this thread suffers some kind of aphasia and is unable to string together coherent thoughts. SMG is a sith lord. A Sith Looooord? Quickly, we must act! *walks calmly away*
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May 17, 2014 09:31
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computer parts posted:Yeah it's pretty telling that a lot of negative complaints boil down to "this wasn't what I was expecting therefore it's bad". Especially the complaints that Star Wars is supposed to be "fun" and therefore there can't be negative attitudes in it. My negative complaints don't boil down to this. And, movies that are horribly tragic can be ridiculously fun. Those things aren't opposites. Tragedies can be fun. I don't think the prequels are terrible because they defied my expectations. I think they are terrible because they are bad movies. In the sense that they are bad. Because they are. And psychoanalyzing people who think they are crap seems to be one of those poorly executed debate techniques which draws the focus away from the criticism and on to the critic. sassassin posted:And yet there are people in this thread that can talk all day about how they were good.
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May 17, 2014 11:38
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Bad acting, bad storytelling, bad effects, bad characters I struggle to find good things
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May 17, 2014 12:00
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Zzulu posted:Bad acting, bad storytelling, bad effects, bad characters The score was loving awesome. A shame how often it gets overlooked because of what was onscreen. I also really loved the visual designs of TPM in particular - Jar Jar, the battle droids, costumes, the spaceships, Darth Maul, they all looked really good and interesting, and you could tell the artists were super enthusiastic and excited to make their mark in the Star Wars universe (less with 2 and 3, you can guess why I think that).
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May 17, 2014 12:12
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redshirt posted:I legitimately have always liked TPM. AOTC is the worst of the prequels, but it has some good parts. ROTS is better than AOTC, not as good as TPM, and is super uneven. I think I agree with you on this. TPM is fine, if a bit boring. AOTC and ROTS rely too much on this is how democracy dies, the George W Bush is evil narrative. Sorry Lucas, but you've been missing out on the years of US Imperialism during the Cold War.
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May 17, 2014 14:21
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hhhat posted:No, it doesn't make me think. You don't say.
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May 17, 2014 17:14
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sassassin posted:And yet there are people in this thread that can talk all day about how they were good. Haha, seriously? There are people that can talk all day about how the Holocaust didn't happen. MAKES YOU THINK.
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May 17, 2014 17:21
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The Holocaust, much like movie criticism, is 100% subjective.
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May 17, 2014 17:24
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Srice posted:The Holocaust, much like movie criticism, is 100% subjective. The way I read the holocaust, it seemed to imply less than what's stated on screen, which is "6 million" or so. I don't know I think it's just that it's Hitler's directorial debut and he's still not a great storyteller. The fascism represents fascism
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May 17, 2014 17:35
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The Holocaust is unironically an example of how a reading can shape an event. Just as one example, the "6 million" number - that's half of the number of people killed in the Holocaust. And yet that's the main number bandied around, why? Because that's the number of Jews killed. The Holocaust has been shaped into an exclusively Jewish tragedy in the modern media.
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May 17, 2014 17:45
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The Star Wars prequels having interesting things to say and their being pretty dire to actually watch aren't mutually exclusive ideas.
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May 17, 2014 17:59
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computer parts posted:The Holocaust has been shaped into an exclusively Jewish tragedy in the modern media. AND DO YOU KNOW WHO RUNS THE MEDIA 
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May 17, 2014 18:07
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hhhat posted:AND DO YOU KNOW WHO RUNS THE MEDIA Homos?
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May 17, 2014 18:16
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Hitler?
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May 17, 2014 18:20
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The "Sith".
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May 17, 2014 18:27
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porfiria posted:The Star Wars prequels having interesting things to say and their being pretty dire to actually watch aren't mutually exclusive ideas. So what makes those two things so hard for people to separate?
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May 17, 2014 18:28
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Toydarians. E: Controlling the media, I mean.
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May 17, 2014 18:28
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Lord Krangdar posted:So what makes those two things so hard for people to separate? The idea that "bad" and "good" are mutually exclusive. If something is "bad" then it is bad, there is no worth, and if something is "good", then it is good, and all criticism, however valid, is superfluous, because it is "good".
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May 17, 2014 18:30
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That's why if people must express their opinions in such simple dead-end ways I wish they'd at least say "good at" or "just bad at". That way there's still some room for understanding or discussion.
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May 17, 2014 18:36
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'The star wars prequels are the holocaust! Please take me seriously!'
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May 17, 2014 18:45
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The reason Anakin went to the Dark Side clearly is due to his hatred of sand.
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May 17, 2014 19:57
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