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Disco Infiva posted:Heh, western and southern Europe have larger public dept per GDP than eastern and northern. If the map is posted by 3peat then I immediately know Romania will do well in whatever is being measured.
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May 19, 2014 05:17
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In the right direction, but still absurd - where is Szekerland?
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May 19, 2014 05:56
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computer parts posted:It's a half pack a day per person though, not everyone smokes. People who smoke, tend to smoke. Smoking 25-30 of something per day seems insane, and it is. It's heavy, but not unheard of. Before I quit, I was smoking about 20 per day just smoking 2 in the morning and then 18 in the evening after I got home from work. If I was also smoking at work then I imagine that could have easily ballooned to more than 30 per day. Also, smoking rates in the US have dropped a lot, but they haven't dropped as much in other countries. So while you're correct that "not everyone smokes", there might be quite a lot more of them than you imagine.
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May 19, 2014 05:59
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Baronjutter posted:Holy poo poo that's like 10 cigs a day?? Is that normal?? An 'average' smoker is about a pack a day (25) - so that's entirely reasonable if half the population smokes.
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May 19, 2014 06:34
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Albino Squirrel posted:The most I've seen is 5 packs a day, or 125 smokes. The Guinness book I had as a kid told me that the world record was Zog I of Albania, who smoked about 10 packs per day. 10 packs a day is like, even assuming one is up 18 hours a day, one cigarette every 5 minutes... or maybe less. That's kind of hard to believe, unless he just threw whatever was lit whenever he wanted to take a bite of something, or take a shower. Oh, the perks of being a king, I suppose... Wikipedia said he was 65 when he died, too. If his smoking really was that heavy I'm surprised he didn't develop pneumonia earlier during a common cold during a winter season.
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May 19, 2014 06:52
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As a guy with weak rear end lungs I'm in awe of people who can smoke. That albanian king should be king just because he can smoke so drat much.
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May 19, 2014 06:53
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Phlegmish posted:If the map is posted by 3peat then I immediately know Romania will do well in whatever is being measured. Yeah, his maps seems to have that in common. Now if you'll excuse me, I just saved a bunch of new maps and they need to be "properly inspected" first  Baronjutter posted:Holy poo poo that's like 10 cigs a day?? Is that normal?? When I was smoking, I smoked around two packs a day. That's 40 cigs. Thank God I managed to stop, my wallet is thanking me ever since (and my cancerless future self has also sent his regards).
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May 19, 2014 07:45
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In keeping with the current discussion, a map of cigarette prices in Europe. Price of a 20 pack of cigarettes, in ca. 2014 prices, calculated from Euros at a 7.46 conversion rate. Apparently the price in Norway was recently increased to a flat 100 kr., though I'm not sure whether that is in NKK or DKK. A lot of money either way, and the same has recently been proposed in Denmark, since it basically prices out young people. (And it should be even more effective in Denmark, since the Norwegians are swimming in money.) A pack a day (or more!) looks like an expensive habit though, no matter where you live.
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May 19, 2014 07:54
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Don't worry, the cigarette smuggle will bring the prices down again to affordable levels.
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May 19, 2014 07:57
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Riso posted:Don't worry, the cigarette smuggle will bring the prices down again to affordable levels.
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May 19, 2014 08:02
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A Buttery Pastry posted:In keeping with the current discussion, a map of cigarette prices in Europe. The most surprising part of this map is that apparently there's a place you can buy cigarettes in Vatican City.
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May 19, 2014 08:03
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A Buttery Pastry posted:In keeping with the current discussion, a map of cigarette prices in Europe. 6 kr seems cheap enough, but it depends on the wage levels in Kazakhstan I guess. What language is that? Danish? I never realized how close our languages are, we use the same names for certain countries in German as well. Schweiz, Island, Let(t)land, Litauen, Ungarn, Belgien, Spanien, Irland, Rus(s)land, Georgien, Polen.
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May 19, 2014 08:06
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I don't know anything about tobacco but is there a qualitative difference between the cigarettes you would buy in France versus those you buy in Russia, for instance? If so where does that come from, is it from the amount of tobacco, the quality, the sourcing? Also what's the lower limit on the price of a cigarette by international trading price of raw tobacco?
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May 19, 2014 08:06
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I also found this graph with smoking rates in OECD countries. Those Russians have to be doing it on purpose. e: I also read 'Belgien' and 'Schweiz' on Buttery Pastry's map and thought it was in German at first.
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May 19, 2014 08:08
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Dusseldorf posted:I don't know anything about tobacco but is there a qualitative difference between the cigarettes you would buy in France versus those you buy in Russia, for instance? If so where does that come from, is it from the amount of tobacco, the quality, the sourcing? That is part of it, but most of the price difference is excise ("sin") taxes to discourage usage. Black market websites often have vendors reselling even American name-brands from the former USSR at vastly lower prices than they're even available in the US.
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May 19, 2014 08:09
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Dusseldorf posted:I don't know anything about tobacco but is there a qualitative difference between the cigarettes you would buy in France versus those you buy in Russia, for instance? If so where does that come from, is it from the amount of tobacco, the quality, the sourcing? Also what's the lower limit on the price of a cigarette by international trading price of raw tobacco? You can buy a cigarette carton full of styrofoam or hay in Russia if you're drunk and stupid enough. Probably in France as well 
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May 19, 2014 08:11
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Torrannor posted:What language is that? Danish? Dusseldorf posted:I don't know anything about tobacco but is there a qualitative difference between the cigarettes you would buy in France versus those you buy in Russia, for instance?
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May 19, 2014 08:13
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Torrannor posted:6 kr seems cheap enough, but it depends on the wage levels in Kazakhstan I guess. Torrannor posted:What language is that? Danish? I never realized how close our languages are, we use the same names for certain countries in German as well. Schweiz, Island, Let(t)land, Litauen, Ungarn, Belgien, Spanien, Irland, Rus(s)land, Georgien, Polen.
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May 19, 2014 08:37
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, a map showing price/median wage, or that compares it to cost of living in general would give a better idea of the actual cost.  Some minimal levels missing on map (Georgia has serious formal law only for gov. sect.): Kazakhstan - 80 euro/month Armenia - 80 euro/month Azerbaijan - 100 euro/month Georgia - 48 euro/month in governmental service Edit: Added description for not too obvious parts of legend. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 09:07 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 09:04
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kalstrams posted:I have this map that shows euros/month minimal salary. Some countries don't have data, or minimal salary level as a thing, but the general picture should be clear. I'm thinking it's possibly because some of the gray countries don't have a legally imposed minimum wage but do have de facto minimum wages negotiated between unions. (I'm having a really hard time thinking of a low-paying job in Finland that isn't covered by one of the CBAs. The highest-paying jobs usually aren't.) 3D Megadoodoo fucked around with this message at 09:12 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 09:09
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Pakled posted:The most surprising part of this map is that apparently there's a place you can buy cigarettes in Vatican City. The Vatican got its own (tax-free) supermarket, that's probably it. It's only open for citizens and employees of the Vatican as well as diplomats accredited to the Holy See, though. (And unofficially to the lucky people who are friends with those) 
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May 19, 2014 09:14
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Jerry Cotton posted:I'm thinking it's possibly because some of the gray countries don't have a legally imposed minimum wage but do have de facto minimum wages negotiated between unions.
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May 19, 2014 09:20
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System Metternich posted:The Vatican got its own (tax-free) supermarket, that's probably it. It's only open for citizens and employees of the Vatican as well as diplomats accredited to the Holy See, though. (And unofficially to the lucky people who are friends with those) Oh, that's right. Isn't it even called the Annona? I think they called it that in Latin as a call-back to the grain distribution service back in ancient Rome! 
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May 19, 2014 09:22
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Deltasquid posted:Oh, that's right. Isn't it even called the Annona? I think they called it that in Latin as a call-back to the grain distribution service back in ancient Rome! It is! Even the ATM instructions are in Latin in the Vatican   edit: vvv Haha, how did I not see that?`vvv System Metternich fucked around with this message at 09:36 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 09:32
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System Metternich posted:It is! Even the ATM instructions are in Latin in the Vatican And written with comic sans (and illustrated with Word clipart). Truly the most majestic font to stand alongside the works of Michelangelo.
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May 19, 2014 09:34
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Speaking of the minimum wage, yesterday the Swiss voted on four federal referenda. Here are the results : 1) Should the confederation set aside a 3 billion CHF budget in order to buy 22 Gripens ?  No. Our remaining F-5 Tigers will be retired and the Swiss air force will be reduced to 32 F/A-18s. 2) Should there be a federal minimum wage of 4000 CHF/month (roughly 4500$) ?  A very strong no. The right wing scare tactics worked and overwhelming media bias worked. A quick example :  "Salary diktat. Destroys jobs. No to the dangerous minimum wage". 3) Should sex offenders be automatically banned for life from jobs that would bring them in contact with vulnerable persons ?  Yes. Getting this whole "mandatory sentencing" thing to mesh with current law and the consitution will be fun... 4) Should the constitution be amended to explicitly state that access to basic healthcare should be possible for all ?  Yes. This initiative also includes provision to encourage medical students to set up as GPs. So there you have it. For once, a Swiss vote will have passed without us all looking like xenophobes . Also, note the pronounced Swiss-french/Swiss german difference visible in the Gripen vote. It is a major factor in Swiss politics.
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May 19, 2014 09:39
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I completely don't get the salary thing and why people oppose to it and how it destroys something. Gripen-opposing part is French, right? Why there is "more than 100%" on medical vote?
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May 19, 2014 09:59
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I wonder why they refer to it by the Swedish name "Gripen" instead of the formal designation "JAS 39" or translating the name to "Griffon".
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May 19, 2014 10:09
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kalstrams posted:I completely don't get the salary thing and why people oppose to it and how it destroys something. According to the basic Keynesian economics negotiated increases in nominal wage are the main source of non-frictional unemployment, that's kind of non-controversial. Of course the corollary to that which isn't often mentioned by the minimum wage opponents is that seeking full employment at cost of nominal wages leads to accelerated accumulation of wealth in the hands of owners, so ultimately increased employment doesn't benefit the populace.
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May 19, 2014 10:12
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steinrokkan posted:According to the basic Keynesian economics negotiated increases in nominal wage are the main source of non-frictional unemployment, that's kind of non-controversial. Of course the corollary to that which isn't often mentioned by the minimum wage opponents is that seeking full employment at cost of nominal wages leads to accelerated accumulation of wealth in the hands of owners, so ultimately increased employment doesn't benefit the populace.
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May 19, 2014 10:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Like a third of Danish words are German loan words, and the languages obviously have a common ancestor, so it's not surprising they're similar. I've seen people from northern Germany (not just Schleswig-Holstein mind you) claim to understand spoken Danish better than Swiss German. I suppose that might at least partially be some kind of uncanny valley effect, with Swiss German just being the right amount of wrong for their ears to rebel. Don't know about Danish, but I can understand more of Dutch than Swiss German. If you talk to the German speaking Swiss they speak accented Standard German. But when you hear two of them talking in Swiss German with each other, you understand at most 1 of 10 words, it's crazy.
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May 19, 2014 10:39
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kalstrams posted:I completely don't get the salary thing and why people oppose to it and how it destroys something. Gripen-opposing part is French, right? Why there is "more than 100%" on medical vote? There's this myth surrounding the minimum wage (or the act of raising it for countries that already have it), that it will destroy jobs. I've seen some pretty in-depth discussions/rebuttals in D&D. Can't find them though. Basically, our economy is actually doing pretty well, especially in comparison to the rest of the EU : low unemployment, social service aren't being gutted (yet), ... The big rubbing points for most people are immigration and inequality. Thus, there have been a whole slew of referenda on those two issues over the past year, and more are scheduled. With regards to inequality, there have been attempts to curb the accumulation of wealth (Minder initiative, 1:12 initiative), and now the time had come to try to pull up the working poor and get everyone a decent wage. A large part of the workforce in Switzerland is unionised, and those who aren't are still usually covered by contracts that are negotiated annually between the unions and the bosses. These so called collective conventions control wages, working hours, vacations days and more. However, a large part is still far from being everybody (and don't think all those collective conventions are that favorable to the workers either). This means that roughly 10% of the population (mostly women) earn less than 4000 chf per month, despite working full time. It can go as low as 2500 chf per month for certain jobs. This situation mostly affects the hospitality industry, cleaners, and agriculture. Given the cost of living in Switzerland, even 4000 chf is cutting it close, especially if you have children. So when the electoral campaign started, the right wing parties, and the various interest groups flooded the streets and media (and by flooded, I mean it : billboards, editorials, very biased newspaper articles, ads on YouTube, the works) with a simple message : pass the minimum wage, and these jobs will disappear. It was a kick in the gut for your average voter, for whom this would turn Switzerland into Spain overnight. Note that this tactic is very effective ; "our jerbs  " has swung more than a few votes in the past. Every other issue was a sideshow in comparison.And yes, the negative vote for the Gripen happened due to opposition from the Swiss-french and large Swiss-german cities. This is seen as a punishment for the (perceived) arrogance of our defense minister, who tried to ram the budget through parliament on multiple occasions, and who never seemed to think that anyone in their right mind would vote against it. Central and eastern Switzerland, being far more traditional, will back up any armament purchase. Finally, the more than 100% : it's a poo poo map, but it's all I found on the internet. Kopijeger posted:I wonder why they refer to it by the Swedish name "Gripen" instead of the formal designation "JAS 39" or translating the name to "Griffon". kalstrams posted:I never want to live under a right-wing government. VVVV Here's a press dossier on the situation in 2012 regarding wages. In brief : the median wage is 6118 chf/month before tax ; bottom 10% 3886 chf/month ; top 10% 11'512 chf/month. edit : updated link to english version. Noosphere fucked around with this message at 11:25 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 10:45
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kalstrams posted:I completely don't get the salary thing and why people oppose to it and how it destroys something. The minimum wage they proposed seemed ludicrously high to me, at least. Even corrected for purchasing power it's still more than what I'm making right now in Flanders.  Then again, apparently 90% of Swiss people already make more than the proposed minimum wage, so it seems they are just ridiculously wealthy and the impact wouldn't be that negative after all.
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May 19, 2014 10:47
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Phlegmish posted:The minimum wage they proposed seemed ludicrously high to me, at least. Even corrected for purchasing power it's still more than what I'm making right now in Flanders. Well, the proposed minimum wage was 25 Francs per hour, and I remember reading that practically nobody in Switzerland makes less than 22 Francs per hour anyway.
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May 19, 2014 10:52
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Jerry Cotton posted:I'm thinking it's possibly because some of the gray countries don't have a legally imposed minimum wage but do have de facto minimum wages negotiated between unions. Yes there are industry specific minimum wages, but not flat universal ones. A metal worker and a hair dresser will have completely different starting wages. quote:There's this myth surrounding the minimum wage (or the act of raising it for countries that already have it), that it will destroy jobs. I've seen some pretty in-depth discussions/rebuttals in D&D. Can't find them though. At best a minimum wage will do nothing, at worst it will destroy jobs. Mostly it is a wash. What it certainly will not do is create more jobs. quote:So when the electoral campaign started, the right wing parties, and the various interest groups flooded the streets and media If the most liberal areas in Switzerland, Neuenburg and Jura, will not vote for the initiative, the problem is not the groups you mention. They are especially not the sole driving force for people to vote 86% against in Canton Schwyz. The problem is demanding a national universal solution instead of letting the Cantons work it out themselves.
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May 19, 2014 10:59
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Phlegmish posted:The minimum wage they proposed seemed ludicrously high to me, at least. Even corrected for purchasing power it's still more than what I'm making right now in Flanders. Thank you for thorough answer. People and government part - if there wouldn't be right-wing government force, no one would make these offers/ideas and people couldn't vote for them is what I thought.
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May 19, 2014 11:03
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Noosphere posted:VVVV How does the social security system work? What does a gross monthly wage of 4 000 francs amount to for someone without dependents who works normal hours? According to this article, the median gross wage in Belgium in 2012 was 'just' € 2.830 (and that's probably a slight exaggeration considering the methodology used in the study). It's less than the minimum wage that was proposed in Switzerland, which I assume is either more expensive or richer than I thought, probably both.
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May 19, 2014 11:08
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Latvia:
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May 19, 2014 11:20
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Phlegmish posted:How does the social security system work? What does a gross monthly wage of 4 000 francs amount to for someone without dependents who works normal hours? Translating a gross wage into a net wage is difficult because there are three layers of taxation : federal, cantonal and communal. So your net wage can vary a lot depending on where you live. But someone making the median wage would make approximately 4800 chf net in Zurich or 4400 chf net in Vaud before communal taxes. Add compulsory health insurance (200-250 chf per person per month), and you get and idea of the true net wage. As you put it, it's a country that's both rich and expensive (not as much as Norway, though).  This graph gives you an idea of relative prices. The EU28 average is 100. Here's the Swiss statistics website with all the data you could dream of. Social security is complicated. Noosphere fucked around with this message at 11:36 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 11:24
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kalstrams posted:Latvia: Europe:  Luxembourg has the highest minimum wage right now, but of course they also have a high cost of living. e: oh wait you posted the exact same map Phlegmish fucked around with this message at 11:35 on May 19, 2014 |
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May 19, 2014 11:29
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