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VitalSigns posted:Nah, most bigots are straight because most people are straight. This meme doesn't explain it. Don't get me wrong - I don't think that most homophobes are closeted homosexuals themselves, and I agree with you that that's a facile explanation for a more complex problem. But Santorum strikes me as a special case - as someone who protests waaaaaay too much, like even more so than your average homophobe. I sense a weird internalized anger off of him. Obviously that doesn't have to mean that he's a self-hating closeted gay man, but it's certainly possible. I don't know - as much as I like to mock the man, I really feel sorry for him. He's clearly not a happy guy, and him being a self-hating homosexual would explain a lot of that. Majorian fucked around with this message at 17:59 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 17:57
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Maybe. I mean, the most closeted homophobe I knew in college was so obsessed with gayness that he replaced every expletive with "gay" even where it didn't make sense ("Oh my gay!" and "What the gay!"). You couldn't have a conversation with him without the word "gay" in there at some point, so I assumed* that he had to be. Even KKK Grand Wizards aren't that obsessed with black people. But maybe Santorum he just relishes the role of a Holy Warrior fighting against the darkness, and a community already despised and hated by followers of his brand of Christianity make a safe, easy target and he doesn't care whom he hurts in his self-aggrandizing pursuit of accolades from the faithful. Frankly, if he did turn out to be a closeted homosexual, I would hate him a lot less than I do. Overcompensating to deal with the psychological torture of closeting and self-rejection is a hell of alot more understandable than sheer cruelty. *Later confirmed...very unambiguously
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May 21, 2014 18:30
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Weembles posted:If Roe v. Wade is a precedent, they will cling to it until the end of time. I'm hoping you can see the differences between same sex marriage and abortion.
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May 21, 2014 18:31
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VitalSigns posted:Frankly, if he did turn out to be a closeted homosexual, I would hate him a lot less than I do. Overcompensating to deal with the psychological torture of closeting and self-rejection is a hell of alot more understandable than sheer cruelty. Yeah, I feel really sorry for him. He seems like a psychological basket case. I hate what he stands for, but the man himself? He just makes me sad. I don't know if his self-loathing comes from being in the closet or something else, but there's definitely some major self-loathing.
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May 21, 2014 18:34
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I'm hoping you can see the differences between same sex marriage and abortion. Even discounting the differences there, people generally don't go from pro-SSM to anti-SSM, it's been a one-way street. People have gone from Roe to Wade and from Wade to Roe, and there's fairly valid, logical, and well-reasoned arguments both ways that, even if you don't agree with, you can at least respect as being earnest (discounting, y'know, the crazies). You don't see that with SSM.
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May 21, 2014 18:35
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:I'm hoping you can see the differences between same sex marriage and abortion. There are, of course, but the opposition to SSM and abortion are both rooted in upholding damaging, patriarchal ideals, usually with some sort of religious justification.
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May 21, 2014 18:56
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Foo posted:There are, of course, but the opposition to SSM and abortion are both rooted in upholding damaging, patriarchal ideals, usually with some sort of religious justification. That doesn't really explain why SSM and other LGBT issues are almost showing a universal upward trend whereas abortion polling shows it fluctuating over the past several years.
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May 21, 2014 19:04
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4 couples filing marriage equality lawsuit in Montana. The Dakotas (North and South) are now the only states with gay marriage bans and no filed lawsuits hoping to overturn them (South Dakota's is being worked on, but still hasn't been filed).
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May 21, 2014 19:12
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Any reason for no test case being prepared in North Dakota?
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May 21, 2014 19:17
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ThirdPartyView posted:Any reason for no test case being prepared in North Dakota? None of the 10 people that live in the whole state want to file a suit?
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May 21, 2014 19:27
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Majorian posted:Yeah, I feel really sorry for him. He seems like a psychological basket case. I hate what he stands for, but the man himself? He just makes me sad. I don't know if his self-loathing comes from being in the closet or something else, but there's definitely some major self-loathing. Considering the man has actively caused harm to piles of people with his self-loathing (including his own daughter) I'd say he deserves all the scorn that can be heaped on him. If you feel that guilty, go flog/off yourself in the corner but leave other people out of it.
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May 21, 2014 19:44
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Corbett's not appealing. Looks like it's a done deal in Pennsylvania.  Edit: Link. Ballz fucked around with this message at 20:16 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 20:03
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rkajdi posted:Considering the man has actively caused harm to piles of people with his self-loathing (including his own daughter) I'd say he deserves all the scorn that can be heaped on him. If you feel that guilty, go flog/off yourself in the corner but leave other people out of it. To what does this refer?
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May 21, 2014 20:03
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Holy poo poo Holy poo poo Holy poo poo I'm so happy
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May 21, 2014 20:12
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 Look at it go! And we still have half a year to go!  Come on Indiana, approve it before SCOTUS forces you to do so.
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May 21, 2014 20:15
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Nth Doctor posted:To what does this refer? His youngest duaghter has Edward's Syndrome. Instead of just letting her die (median lifespan is around a week), they continued to put her through piles of "life saving" maintenence medicine so she can continue to live a painful life. Also could have been solved by just slapping a rubber on or just not having sex when you're old (like Down's Syndrome, Edward's Syndrome is related to maternal age) If you want to do that to yourself, cool, but leave other people out of it. Sorry if this is harsh, but I've watched something very simliar happen in my extended family. I have zero respect for someone who talks about MAH BULIFEZ when it involves torturing a child.
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May 21, 2014 20:20
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You're aware that this makes you come across as a dick, right?
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May 21, 2014 20:22
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:You're aware that this makes you come across as a dick, right? To you maybe. I prefer not torturing children because you have some beliefs. There were a million different places Santorum could have fixed the problem, but he chose to stick to his beliefs no matter how much they hurt someone else. I've got zero respect for that.
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May 21, 2014 20:32
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Goddamn. That's two states in less than a week. Are there any more blue states that haven't legalized? Colorado still has to, I think...
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May 21, 2014 20:33
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Foo posted:There are, of course, but the opposition to SSM and abortion are both rooted in upholding damaging, patriarchal ideals, usually with some sort of religious justification. This is the marriage equality thread, but as a gay agnostic and being perfectly fine with all kinds of birth control, sexual education and wage equality for women, I really resent people telling me that my opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. I cannot see the connection between SSM and abortion at all.
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May 21, 2014 20:33
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Torrannor posted:This is the marriage equality thread, but as a gay agnostic and being perfectly fine with all kinds of birth control, sexual education and wage equality for women, I really resent people telling me that my opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. I cannot see the connection between SSM and abortion at all. There was a really good quote I read from someone on another forum about same-sex marriage vs. abortion. Lemme see if I can dig it up... Found it: quote:Part of Homophobia (IMO a large part) is that it is "icky" or more formally "different". This becomes less of an issue when you realize the Bob in Accounting, the guy who fixed the problem with your paycheck or Sue, the really sweet IT tech who actually shows up like she promised, has shown up at the office annual BBQ with their same sex partner. It becomes even less of an issue when the gay or lesbian couple move in down the block (and nothing happens except their cat looks like the one you had as a kid). So yeah, abortion and SSM aren't equivalent in terms of reason for opposition and support. You can't logically justify opposition to same-sex marriage, but abortion is not nearly as clear-cut. I myself am vehemently pro-choice, but I can acknowledge that intelligent people can come to different conclusions based on their own personal morality and ethics.
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May 21, 2014 20:51
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Torrannor posted:This is the marriage equality thread, but as a gay agnostic and being perfectly fine with all kinds of birth control, sexual education and wage equality for women, I really resent people telling me that my opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. I cannot see the connection between SSM and abortion at all. While it might not be a religous issue for you, you do understand that for the vast majority of the anti-choice community is motivated by religious animus and misogyny, correct? The relation between the two issues is that a bunch of regressive blowhards are sticking their noses into the bedroom as a way to oppress people (women in the case of abortion, LBGT people in the case of gay rights)
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May 21, 2014 20:54
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Rick Santorum and Tom Corbett just gave us gay marriage. Today is a good day.
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May 21, 2014 21:03
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katium posted:Rick Santorum and Tom Corbett just gave us gay marriage. It's really wonderful, how fast it is moving. I might see same sex marriage before I'm old enough to drink. 
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May 21, 2014 21:04
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Of the people here that are against abortion, for non-religious reasons, do you also believe abortion should be made illegal? Or do you just leave it at a simple, personal choice? I don't mean to start any arguments, but I want to get more insight from the people I generally disagree with.
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May 21, 2014 21:13
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Torrannor posted:I really resent people telling me that my opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. Your opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. Or both. Whatever reason(s) you give will invariably boil down to one of those.
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May 21, 2014 21:19
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 BOOSH
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May 21, 2014 21:24
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rkajdi posted:While it might not be a religous issue for you, you do understand that for the vast majority of the anti-choice community is motivated by religious animus and misogyny, correct? The people who make this their obsession are generally motivated by religion (not religious animus) or misogonystic views, but that doesn't mean the people who have a general feeling that abortion is murder (which is what converts the wackjobs into a political force) and tend to support them somewhat passively (through voting, etc). Like look at gay marriage - it's not happening because the wackjobs saw the light, it's happening because everyone who passively supported them flipped. evilweasel fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 21:26
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VitalSigns posted:Your opposition to abortion is some kind of religious superstition or patriarchal ideal. Do you realize this post is worded like a challenge and is essentially saying "I want this to escalate into an internet fight"? Please don't. It's an interesting topic but this is a derail powder keg in the SSM thread.
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May 21, 2014 21:34
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Morter posted:Of the people here that are against abortion, for non-religious reasons, do you also believe abortion should be made illegal? Or do you just leave it at a simple, personal choice? Personally I think abortion is a much more complex topic than gay marriage. Essentially gay marriage is more of a civil right kinda thing whereas abortion has some other elements to it. I don't agree with the whole "life starts at conception" idea, because it's illogical. By that same rationale having a kidney removed, or getting a scrape would be considered mass cellular genocide. At some point though it does turn from random glob of cells into something else. Part of the problem is defining "when" that actually happens, and there's really no good way to do it (in the sense that everyone will agree to it). Roe defined it as the "threshold of viability", essentially if the fetus is able to live outside the mother. Back when the case was decided (over 40 years ago now) medical technology wasn't quite where it is now. One of the services that I worked for (as a medic)had a Children's hospital contract, and they've had "premes" at about 20 weeks. Gestational age and infant mortality/morbidity are inversely proportional.So even if the baby "lives" outside the body artificially, it's still likely to die or have massive developmental problems. When the case was decided I think they said something around up until the 7 month mark (iirc, but correct me if I'm wrong). Using that same definition it can now be less than 5 months (or more). On the other side of the coin is the state and parens patriae. Basically the state has a duty to protect those that can't protect themselves. Compounding the problem is the fact that in a lot of places pregnant women are treated as 2 people.
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May 21, 2014 21:40
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oh good let's make this thread about abortion that's a wonderful idea
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May 21, 2014 21:44
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evilweasel posted:The people who make this their obsession are generally motivated by religion (not religious animus) or misogonystic views, but that doesn't mean the people who have a general feeling that abortion is murder (which is what converts the wackjobs into a political force) and tend to support them somewhat passively (through voting, etc). You act like that "silent majority" position here is different than the internalized racism of the Southern Strategy. I remain unconvinced. Also, gay rights hasn't gone anywhere by convincing even the silent center. It's 100% about the bigots dying off and better human beings coming of age and replacing them. For whatever reason, we as a nation haven't managed to educate our children in a pro-choice way, so newer generations are not any better than previous ones.
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May 21, 2014 22:05
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rkajdi posted:Also, gay rights hasn't gone anywhere by convincing even the silent center. It's 100% about the bigots dying off and better human beings coming of age and replacing them. For whatever reason, we as a nation haven't managed to educate our children in a pro-choice way, so newer generations are not any better than previous ones. http://www.pewforum.org/2014/03/10/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ Gen X doesn't trend as consistently, but the Baby Boomers and the Silent Generation have increased support by >10% over the past 10 years, on par with the increasing support from polling Millenials.
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May 21, 2014 23:18
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rkajdi posted:You act like that "silent majority" position here is different than the internalized racism of the Southern Strategy. I remain unconvinced. So given that we're seeing increasing support for gay rights, especially in the past five years, that suggests that there's been a massive die-off of older people. I haven't heard anything about that, but I look forward to seeing your data.
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May 21, 2014 23:30
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Ballz posted:It's the Gen-X/Millenial divide. I'm the youngest of three kids, born in 1980 and right on the generational line. I used to consider myself the tail end of Gen X but my views and political outlook are complete polar opposites when compared to my older brother and sister, so I might as well embrace being one of the first Millenials. Wait, is this really a thing? I thought my generation was pretty sharply different from our selfish boomer parents, but maybe I'm a poor example of my age group. If so, I apologize for my peers. E: wait, gen x goes back to 1964? Haha, never mind, that's a hopelessly broad brush. cruft fucked around with this message at 23:40 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 23:32
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Ballz posted:Corbett's not appealing. Looks like it's a done deal in Pennsylvania. Wow, I'd missed this. That says a lot, when such a conservative governor goes "man this isn't even worth other people's effort and money".
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May 21, 2014 23:32
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The difference between Abortion and Marriage Equality as a political issue is humongous. The reason is because the only rational, non-religiously motivated reason that opponents give to oppose same-sex marriage is that it will cause irreparable harm to society if it is allowed to happen. If that doesn't happen, their reasoning is shown to be invalid, and that is why the "undecideds", or even people who were only very slightly anti-same-sex marriage, are so quickly becoming supportive. The more states that legalize it, and the more it is shown to be harmless, the less of a rational argument the fundamentalists can make. Abortion, on the other hand, is completely different. There is indeed an argument that the fundamentalists peddle that abortion causes societal harm, but that isn't their main argument. Their main argument is that it is literally murdering babies in the womb. Because of that, it's much, much, much easier to convince people that it's bad, because to them it's literally murdering babies. This may not seem like a rational argument to some people but it is to a lot of people including a lot of people who aren't very religious.evilweasel posted:Wow, I'd missed this. That says a lot, when such a conservative governor goes "man this isn't even worth other people's effort and money". I think that him not appealing is entirely politically motivated. He's very unpopular, and he's up for re-election in November, and he seems to want to run as a sort of fiscal conservative who is willing to give Pennsylvania the bad medicine that it needs, and seems to be running away from these cultural issues. For instance, just recently he changed his position on medical marijuana. I'm willing to bet that, if he was not a very weak governor up for re-election in November he probably would've challenged the ruling. But in the end, it doesn't really matter I suppose, because a win's a win. Mischitary fucked around with this message at 23:35 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 23:32
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can't think of a better place to ask this and it's very off your topic sorry BUT someone tweeted this sexism is inherent to the objectification of women. and I wasn't sure I agreed and I also replied with I’m tryin to work out if I agree with that statement though, not sure if I do.. surely there is non-sexist objectification? what's the deal yo? is objectification inherently sexist? I love women and they are way better than men but I also love to look at they bods
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May 21, 2014 23:35
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Engineer Lenk posted:http://www.pewforum.org/2014/03/10/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ Color me surprised. I'd seen the other numbers before, but dismissed them since things like political leaning or religion are fungible. I'm still interested in seeing info if the addition of immigration has had any effect on this, but I doubt we don't gain enough naturalized citizens to move the needle much. I do know that most of the electoral changes are due to demographic changes-- Romney would have beaten Obama with the demographics from the 80s, for instance. I just assumed our improvement on other issues were symptoms of the same effect.
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May 21, 2014 23:37
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Engineer Lenk posted:http://www.pewforum.org/2014/03/10/graphics-slideshow-changing-attitudes-on-gay-marriage/ This data is cool as hell, thank you
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May 21, 2014 23:38
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