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Miltank posted:It doesn't make a case for reparations though? A case for reparations would be a piece on how reparations would improve circumstances for blacks. They'd have more money. Do you think they'd blow it all on flatscreens and used Pontiacs?
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May 22, 2014 15:21
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SedanChair posted:They'd have more money. Do you think they'd blow it all on flatscreens and used Pontiacs? Obviously https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg6J1Skptbs
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May 22, 2014 15:26
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SedanChair posted:They'd have more money. Do you think they'd blow it all on flatscreens and used Pontiacs? I wouldn't judge because the first things I'd run out and buy, had I more money, were a new computer and a less lovely car. And I won't judge because my car might explode any goddamned minute, as is true with most poor people. If they have a car at all.
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May 22, 2014 15:28
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Jimbozig posted:Why the gently caress are people talking about the fact that they aren't responsible for their ancestors? Of course you're not - causality can't go backwards in time. But the government is responsible for its role and the government should pay. Government is funded by the government taking my wages. If the government has to pay for reparations, they are going to take more of my money to do so. Therefore, I have to pay for reparations. false edit-PLEASE note that I do not agree with this logic, or the worldview that would create it, but this is how people can feel like they, personally, would have to pay for reparations. Its because to a large portion of the country, taxation=theft.
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May 22, 2014 15:35
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Miltank posted:So what was that essay even calling for? I read the whole thing expecting some sort of proposal to be made, but it never comes. I gotta say I am really not impressed maybe I just don't "get it" the way some posters here do. Perhaps I'm crazy but I distinctly recall him repeatedly suggesting the passage of a specific, annually introduced House bill to study the topic as a starting point. That's not enough of a proposal for you?
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May 22, 2014 15:42
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Miltank posted:It doesn't make a case for reparations though? A case for reparations would be a piece on how reparations would improve circumstances for blacks. "rep·a·ra·tion [rep-uh-rey-shuhn] Show IPA noun 1. the making of amends for wrong or injury done: reparation for an injustice." Huh...
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May 22, 2014 15:46
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SedanChair posted:They'd have more money. Do you think they'd blow it all on flatscreens and used Pontiacs? Probably? What do you think the working poor generally do when they fall rear end-backwards into money? I really don't see how traditional reparations would serve as anything more than a stimulus.
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May 22, 2014 15:46
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I wouldn't judge because the first things I'd run out and buy, had I more money, were a new computer and a less lovely car. 47% of Americans lack access to transit and we have a huge lobby, infrastructure, and civic planning hurdle to overcome if we wanted to fix that with public transportation. Lack of mobility is strongly tied to poverty because then you are stuck to the jobs in your immediate area. Poor people buying cars would be a smart move on their part, since it would help get them out of this particular poverty trap
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May 22, 2014 15:53
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I still maintain that the #1 quality-of-life improvement America needs, which would make the greatest possible difference, is a transit infrastructure overhaul. Declare a War On Immobility; take all the money we were spending on police and wars and put it into Big Shiny Trains (and buses I GUESS). Put the unemployed to work laying tracks, FDR style. Unemployment falls, pollution falls, urban cost-of-living falls, access to urban centers from lower cost-of-living areas soars, gas prices fall, traffic is less lovely, all from that one project. The city I live in (Boston) has maybe the third- or fourth-best public transit system in the country and that's really sad because good Lord it is awful. Unfortunately at some point public transit got made into an environmental issue so it'll never happen, but I can dream 
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May 22, 2014 16:01
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Miltank posted:Probably? What do you think the working poor generally do when they fall rear end-backwards into money? I really don't see how traditional reparations would serve as anything more than a stimulus.  Welp! No sense trying! No sense trying to even put a dent in this disparity. It'll just slip through their fingers!
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May 22, 2014 16:07
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http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2014/05/dordt-college-wins-first-round-hhs-mandate/quote:A federal court issued an order Wednesday that halts enforcement of the Obama administration’s HHS mandate against two Christian colleges: Dordt College in Iowa and Cornerstone University in Michigan. Isn't Hobby Lobby already taking this to the Supreme court for pretty much the same thing? Is this two colleges posturing for more enrollment because they stood against our "evil" government? I honestly do not understand why these two colleges would do this when HL is already taking this provision to the supreme court.
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May 22, 2014 16:07
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SedanChair posted:
My initial reaction upon seeing this graph was "well, at least the gap appears to be getting narrower!" Then I noticed the dates. 
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May 22, 2014 16:08
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Well you know those christian colleges oppose birth control so much, they must just love abortion!
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May 22, 2014 16:10
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Flaggy posted:http://caffeinatedthoughts.com/2014/05/dordt-college-wins-first-round-hhs-mandate/ If the hobby lobby case goes in a way they don't like, they can still go for a more narrow, religious college based ruling.
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May 22, 2014 16:12
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loquacius posted:I still maintain that the #1 quality-of-life improvement America needs, which would make the greatest possible difference, is a transit infrastructure overhaul. Declare a War On Immobility; take all the money we were spending on police and wars and put it into Big Shiny Trains (and buses I GUESS). Put the unemployed to work laying tracks, FDR style. Unemployment falls, pollution falls, urban cost-of-living falls, access to urban centers from lower cost-of-living areas soars, gas prices fall, traffic is less lovely, all from that one project. The city I live in (Boston) has maybe the third- or fourth-best public transit system in the country and that's really sad because good Lord it is awful. Oh I agree with you 100 percent, this is my dream. We need cheap, affordable, efficient public transportation throughout the nation.
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May 22, 2014 16:13
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America’s College Kids Are a Bunch of Mollycoddled Babiesquote:It’s hard to know whether to laugh or cry over the demand by U.S. college students for “trigger warnings” to alert them that something they’re about to read or see in one of their classes might traumatize them—apparently a new trend, according to the New York Times. Ditto for off-beat campus sculptures, placards displayed by protesters and more.
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May 22, 2014 16:15
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SedanChair posted:
Said nobody itt.
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May 22, 2014 16:22
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Everyone should be traumatized. Everyone should get a Ludovico treatment of Syrian Youtube videos before they can talk about starting a revolution. I think War Hawk tough guys might rethink their opinions about trigger warnings after that.
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May 22, 2014 16:31
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loquacius posted:I still maintain that the #1 quality-of-life improvement America needs, which would make the greatest possible difference, is a transit infrastructure overhaul. Declare a War On Immobility; take all the money we were spending on police and wars and put it into Big Shiny Trains (and buses I GUESS). Put the unemployed to work laying tracks, FDR style. Unemployment falls, pollution falls, urban cost-of-living falls, access to urban centers from lower cost-of-living areas soars, gas prices fall, traffic is less lovely, all from that one project. The city I live in (Boston) has maybe the third- or fourth-best public transit system in the country and that's really sad because good Lord it is awful. The more I've been learning about it the more I think the big one would be some sort of zoning reform/housing reform. TNC's article touches on it lightly, but it's a complicated issue that undergirds a lot of our national problems, from interpersonal attitudes to wealth disparities to renter behavior to education. Race is place is class. We segregate our neighborhoods, which leads to stratification by wealth. If you life in a poor community, your opportunities for success are lessened because schools, infrastructure, and law enforcement all draw heavily on community funding. Then there are the intangibles like networking, access, and perception that are decreased because the rich and poor don't interact. You don't put a good word in for someone applying for a job if they are a complete stranger. Then there is the fact that poor communities have about no one on the lookout for them in the halls of power, so they get the freeways put through them, they get the polluting factories dumped next to them, they get the heaviest cuts in services when the budgets come around. All of which again helps make them poorer because property values drop and they are less healthy due to pollution. Subprime mortgages are clearly idiotic. That doesn't mean there aren't other ways to integrate our neighborhoods along racial and if possible class lines. I don't have a solution and I know this won't be a silver bullet. But I think if we can at least get it so the average black family making 100,000 a year no longer lives in a worse neighborhood than the average white family making 30,000 a year we will be moving in the right direction of smashing some of these cycles of poverty.
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May 22, 2014 16:37
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I too would rather have students with PTSD be traumatized by a student arguing that a clear instance of date rape isn't rape at all than have the ability to just miss the day and do a makeup assignment* *this actually happened I'm not sure flagging every instance of classism, racism, etc. is necessarily a good idea (I could easily see conservative states getting the idea to force me to flag or, worse, make readings about abortion, race, income inequality, etc. optional, and part of my job is to make my students uncomfortable), but I'm sure as hell going to alert students to when we're talking about rape or torture.
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May 22, 2014 16:40
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counterpoint: quote:people don't complain about Trigger Warnings when TV shows give their "Viewer Discretion is Advised" and list why. TV is more inclusive than higher education.
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May 22, 2014 16:43
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I don't think Coates' piece makes a strong enough case to legitimize reparations. But I do hope that his piece starts a dialogue in the media, and right-wing talking heads start talking about black people. Because when they do, they usually say something stupid in sound-byte form. On the left, hopefully it will spur slightly more conversations advocating one of more of the following: - Raising the minimum wage to something closer to a living wage - Affirmative action for black, brown, and poor people of all colors - Seriously invest in public transportation - Injecting money and talent in poor performing schools instead of shuttering them I'm all for any serious journalist advocating "extreme" left-wing positions, like Coates does. We need more people doing this. The right has done a great job of advocating extreme right-wing positions, and in doing so, has shifted the Overton window quite effectively to the right.
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May 22, 2014 16:43
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I too would rather have students with PTSD be traumatized by a student arguing that a clear instance of date rape isn't rape at all than have the ability to just miss the day and do a makeup assignment* Having worked and lived with a lot of PTSD ridden vets I'm aware of how bad triggering events can be for the person exposed. But the thing is I'm not certain trigger warnings help all that much. Anyone conscientious enough to use a trigger warning is also going to handle the material in a sensitive manner so it likely won't be triggering. Whereas the ones who handle the material in a fashion likely to trigger don't know about/don't care about using one. It's some catch that catch 22. And that's without touching in the absurd overuse you see in many circles (tumblr) Anyways, gently caress that "millennials!" Article
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May 22, 2014 16:47
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I'm not sure flagging every instance of classism, racism, etc. is necessarily a good idea
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May 22, 2014 16:48
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While I think some of the "trigger warning" stuff can be easily overused, and overblown, this guy apparently doesn't realize that this has been pretty much common practice at colleges for 30 years or more.
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May 22, 2014 16:56
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quote:After all, they’re old enough to vote, to drive, even (though it’s unlikely) to join the army. Man this guy can just blow me all day.
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May 22, 2014 17:09
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McDowell posted:Everyone should be traumatized. Then you're just left with the people who stare their way through the whole thing unblinking and wonder if they want Subway or Panda Express for lunch.
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May 22, 2014 17:10
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StealthArcher posted:Oh deary me you've done it now. I can already hear Amergin typing out "Guilty of being alive while white." unironically. I completely support the study and I completely support implementing, after said study is complete, a suite of programs to try and tackle the issue of minority poverty/inequality from multiple angles. Assuming the solution isn't "cut a check to poor minorities and call it a day" which, as mentioned previously in this thread, is just a stimulus that'll probably be more insulting than anything else ("here's $500 you're now equal with whites yay!"). However I do think that the focus on black reparations is a bit disingenuous... let's not create a priority list of "those who have been hosed by whites" because everyone needs a slice of that pie. Entire continents need slices of that pie. After that we can focus on other reparations. Japanese Americans to Chinese Americans, Chinese Americans to Vietnamese Americans, Russian Americans to Ukrainian Americans, German Americans to Jewish Americans, Egyptian and Arabic Americans to European, North African and Iranian/Persian Americans... At some point we'll finally have great awakenings and reckonings for every lovely thing done by people against other people and we'll be good to go. EDIT: I forgot, once we move on from ethnic reparations we can start on religious and sexual reparations. Men will pay reparations to women, heteros to homos, Christians, Muslims and Hindus will all circlejerk money to each other... EDIT 2: Also, I'm sure some African tribes enslaved members of other tribes, so at some point we'll need to start following lineage back and having blacks pay reparations towards each other. Amergin fucked around with this message at 17:19 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 17:13
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:I too would rather have students with PTSD be traumatized by a student arguing that a clear instance of date rape isn't rape at all than have the ability to just miss the day and do a makeup assignment* Was it Spring Awakening? Cause literally the exact same thing happened in the class my wife teaches.
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May 22, 2014 17:16
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There's only one way to do reparations correctly: Communism.
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May 22, 2014 17:22
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Ask the Russian Jewry how communism works out for ethnic minorities.
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May 22, 2014 17:25
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BUSH 2112 posted:There's only one way to do reparations correctly: Communism. That's "#FullCommunism" comrade
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May 22, 2014 17:25
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Amergin posted:I completely support the study and I completely support implementing, after said study is complete, a suite of programs to try and tackle the issue of minority poverty/inequality from multiple angles. Assuming the solution isn't "cut a check to poor minorities and call it a day" which, as mentioned previously in this thread, is just a stimulus that'll probably be more insulting than anything else ("here's $500 you're now equal with whites yay!"). More like here's a check for $100,000. Or a check for $500 every week.
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May 22, 2014 17:25
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greatn posted:Ask the Russian Jewry how communism works out for ethnic minorities. Or you could ask Jews living in kibbutz in Israel.
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May 22, 2014 17:28
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SedanChair posted:More like here's a check for $100,000. Or a check for $500 every week. Are you actually serious about this? E:"Salon writer finds one crazy trick to end racism, bigots hate him!" Miltank fucked around with this message at 17:33 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 17:29
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If we want to be all white person paternal about it, there are plenty of ways to do reparations aside from just cutting every black person in America a check. Massive influxes of cash to public schools that are almost all black (thanks segregation for making that easy!), jobs programs, housing programs, public transportation programs, give every black student who graduates high school a full ride to college of their choice, and so on.
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May 22, 2014 17:32
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greatn posted:Ask the Russian Jewry how communism works out for ethnic minorities. That was inferior Russian communism that had been sabotaged by perfidious capitalist pig-dogs. LF thirdworldism brought about by heroic vanguard posters and glorious leader Lowtax will not have those flaws.
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May 22, 2014 17:34
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Miltank posted:Are you actually serious about this? I don't see why not. Or we could just go program by program fixing the legacy of inequality, then find some other way to compensate black people whose wealth is lower than whites by just about that amount on average. Your call. e: IOW zoux posted:Massive influxes of cash to public schools that are almost all black (thanks segregation for making that easy!), jobs programs, housing programs, public transportation programs, give every black student who graduates high school a full ride to college of their choice, and so on.
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May 22, 2014 17:36
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So, in theory I support the idea of reparations, but I think we need to call it something else, because "reparations" is a loaded term. Sell it, use marketing techniques and branding to make it into something palatable. Not that a lot of white people find giving money to black people palatable in general. But I'm optimistic that with the right campaign, it could be sold. Realistically, though, the best solution is guaranteed income and housing, which MLK supported, better education, and programs kind of like Big Brother, Big Sister that encourage people of different races to meet and make friends when they otherwise never would have met. But that's utopian, pie-in-the-sky talk as well. I might get some flak for this, but I think all the other prejudices (racial, gender, ethnic, disability, sexual orientation) are rooted in classism. Every one of them is ginned up to protect the in-group against the out-groups, and people in power encourage them to divide their potential enemies, and justify their otherwise morally unjustifiable position. So, racial prejudice is as much about money as it is about skin color. First it was used to justify and protect the institution of slavery, and then to prevent the large numbers of freedmen from rising further up the ladder and displacing whites. Racial prejudice was, and is also cleverly employed to divide natural allies, the working class people. We see now how many people vote against their interests, and we think the deciding factor may have a lot to do with race, but specifically it's rooted in socioeconomic status. Some hate poor people because they're black, but I believe (though I need to do research on it to prove it) that more of them resent black people because most of them are poor. If my theory is right, the root of racism is social inequality. We take that out, and the prejudices ought to eventually collapse.
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May 22, 2014 17:37
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Nicely done, your first paragraph lured me into thinking it was going to be a good post...the gradual reveal of "I'm a full-on white supremacist shitbag" was marvelous  Literally The Worst posted:Man this guy can just blow me all day. Seriously, as a millenial veteran who got deployed to Iraq to fight the stupid war his generation voted for, 
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