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asdf32 posted:This text is actually less damning than the actual reality. Yes, that's what genocide is.
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May 22, 2014 17:49
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Pauline Kael posted:Off topic, but I'm rather fascinated by that era. It was said that a woman would walk nude from the urals to the pacific without fear, Ghengis ran a tight ship, and for a 'barbarian' had some pretty progressive policies for that day. Besides, of course, the wholesale slaughter of entire cities.
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May 22, 2014 17:51
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SedanChair posted:TJ quotes. ITT we learn that warding off aggression from a hostile polity that is attacking your citizens is literal genocide.
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May 22, 2014 17:56
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wateroverfire posted:ITT we learn that warding off aggression from a hostile polity that is attacking your citizens is literal genocide. In response to the attacks, he implemented a policy of genocide. There's a direct order in the second quote to carry out extermination. What's to be debated here?
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May 22, 2014 17:57
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asdf32 posted:
This is literally the definition of genocide, so yeah, I'll call it genocide.
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May 22, 2014 17:58
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SedanChair posted:You stupid motherfuckers are just getting mad that I mentioned Hitler. You can't get over it, it's hilarious to me. The truth stings. You're the little person with delusions of grandeur saying "Oh, look how horrible all these famous people in history are!", like it's some sort of intellectual revelation that the founding fathers were not in fact, Gods. I don't know what formal education you have received, but it's clearly not in line with what the average american is getting, or even got as far back as the 70s, when I was in school. I have 2 kids, 14 and 9, and neither of them were or are being taught that the Founders were some sort of perfect people, but thankfully they aren't being taught that the Founders are on scale with Hitler or Stalin. Sorry you've gotten stuck in your intellectual development, I guess.
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May 22, 2014 18:00
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Nessus posted:It would have been a rather different set of Americas had they had three hundred years to rebuild from Euro diseases, wouldn't it? It very much would have been. I've wondered about the Viking contact in the context of disease, too. One of the big sources of European disease was domesticated animals (pigs, sheep, cattle, fowl) - maybe the Vikings didn't have many of these?
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May 22, 2014 18:01
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slogsdon posted:This is literally the definition of genocide, so yeah, I'll call it genocide. But genocide is what Hitler did! 
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May 22, 2014 18:02
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SedanChair posted:In response to the attacks, he implemented a policy of genocide. There's a direct order in the second quote to carry out extermination. What's to be debated here? That's not what that quote says, for one thing. What is unreasonable about about the stance that "if these groups that pose an existential threat to our citizens don't stop attacking us we are going to kill them until they GTFO"? That's what that quote says.
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May 22, 2014 18:03
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wateroverfire posted:That's not what that quote says, for one thing. Until they GTFO of their ancestral lands?
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May 22, 2014 18:05
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Pauline Kael posted:Do you think talking about the death of tens of millions of Native Americans is appropriate for 2nd graders? Why shouldn't we talk about this?
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May 22, 2014 18:06
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SedanChair posted:Until they GTFO of their ancestral lands? Until they GTF out of range so they can't raid settlements.
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May 22, 2014 18:07
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Berke Negri posted:Why shouldn't we talk about this? I assume 7 year olds would have a difficult time internalizing and understanding the gravity of such a situation. Similarly, our education process doesn't introduce other concepts that require a more developed brain in any other subject as far as I am aware.
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May 22, 2014 18:08
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wateroverfire posted:Until they GTF out of range so they can't raid settlements. I believe TJ's exact words were quote:driven beyond the Mississippi Which makes it pretty clear that the policy was a pretext to remove all Indians completely from their lands. The alternative was extermination. That's genocide. There is no arguing that.
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May 22, 2014 18:09
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For one, the US didn't kill tens of millions of indians, didn't even kill one million. Or even 100's of thousands. SedanChair posted:Until they GTFO of their ancestral lands? That is in no way unique to the US, people have been fighting and taking each others territory for thousands of years. It wasn't until after World War 2 that we generally decided that that wasn't cool.
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May 22, 2014 18:09
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SedanChair posted:In response to the attacks, he implemented a policy of genocide. There's a direct order in the second quote to carry out extermination. What's to be debated here? Do you think that if Jefferson didn't 'order extermination' that somehow the US west of the Appalachians would still belong to Native American tribes? Would the US still be bottled up on the East Coast, living in harmony with the pure and spiritual Native Americans? Do you believe that morals and political realities change over time, or has everything always been just like it was in 1989 when you were born?
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May 22, 2014 18:10
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Berke Negri posted:Why shouldn't we talk about this? Because it's inappropriate material for 2nd graders. Sorry if you don't get this, I hope you're not responsible for any 2nd graders. Perhaps you advocate the teaching of Calculus to them too,
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May 22, 2014 18:12
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So we're down to: -Not even a million Indians were slaughtered -Other nations also committed genocide -There's no way those Indians were going to keep those lands, might as well get it over with Anything else? Anything that makes what happened not genocide?
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May 22, 2014 18:12
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SedanChair posted:I believe TJ's exact words were So, in other words, the same actions as every powerful expanding civilization in the history of humanity. But the US should behave differently because
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May 22, 2014 18:14
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SedanChair posted:I believe TJ's exact words were People are arguing that you dense mother fucker. The Indians weren't some kind "noble savage," they did hosed up poo poo to settlers as well. Hell the first person in my family born in North America was orphaned at the age of 5 when his parents were killed in an Indian raid. The Indians weren't systematically murdered, it took 100's of years.
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May 22, 2014 18:15
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SedanChair posted:So we're down to: You're the one drawing lines connecting Jefferson with Hitler, while absolutely everyone else in this thread is telling you you're wrong. You can keep dodging the point, but it's all pretty clear. edit spelling
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May 22, 2014 18:16
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Pauline Kael posted:You're the one drawing lines connecting Jefferson with Hitler, while absolutely everyone else in this thread is telling you you're wrong. You can keep dodging the point, but it's all pretty clear. The "everyone" in the thread with me right now is pretty much a rogue's gallery of aggrieved whitesplainers.
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May 22, 2014 18:29
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SedanChair posted:The "everyone" in the thread with me right now is pretty much a rogue's gallery of aggrieved whitesplainers. OK then, I will hold my breath, as will you I'm sure, while we wait for the "Jefferson == Hitler" brigade to come to your aid. It's also ok for you to admit that your education did you a pretty serious disservice in terms of understanding history. Can I ask, are you American? In what state did you receive your primary education?
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May 22, 2014 18:41
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Pauline Kael posted:Because it's inappropriate material for 2nd graders. Sorry if you don't get this, I hope you're not responsible for any 2nd graders. Perhaps you advocate the teaching of Calculus to them too, I'm not suggesting dragging out haunting heliotype prints of decaying and stricken native american corpses on the plains. We can just as easily do things as not rely on whitewashed myths of American history like Columbus was swell, Anything About Pilgrims, Old West, etc. History learned in childhood can be incredibly pervasive in a person's life so we should at least not be perpetuating stuff we already know is wrong. Also did we just have someone say, "native americans killed my great great great grandfather, so they weren't systematically murdered" what the hell.
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May 22, 2014 18:54
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Berke Negri posted:Also did we just have someone say, "native americans killed my great great great grandfather, so they weren't systematically murdered" what the hell. That's not at all what I said. And no, there was no systematic extermination of Indians. Never once did I say what we did to the Indians wasn't anything but a tragedy but it genocide it was not. I went to school in Florida and we learned all about the horrible poo poo America has done. I don't know anyone my age(26) that doesn't know about the trail of tears or putting Japanese Americans in internment camps. And that's in a state that people often make fun of for it's education system.
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May 22, 2014 19:05
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Mustang posted:The Indians weren't some kind "noble savage," they did hosed up poo poo to settlers as well. "But.. but.. The Indians!" is your argument? for real? Are you like an expert on eastern native american cultures or something?
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May 22, 2014 19:06
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No, the point is that there is a bit more nuance to it then "The US is literally as bad as Hitler."
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May 22, 2014 19:09
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Mustang posted:I went to school in Florida. And no, there was no systematic extermination of Indians. c'mon man.
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May 22, 2014 19:09
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SedanChair posted:Yes, that's what genocide is. There were 3 parts to my critism. 1) Your choice of terms - both haulicaust and genocide 2) Blaming the founding fathers/Jefferson for 1 3) Your reason for doing 2
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May 22, 2014 19:10
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Berke Negri posted:I'm not suggesting dragging out haunting heliotype prints of decaying and stricken native american corpses on the plains. How would you and SedanChair teach early post-colonial American history to 2nd graders? Some bad people were mean to some nice people and the bad people won and you should all feel bad?
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May 22, 2014 19:10
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Mustang posted:"The US is literally as bad as Hitler." This was said.
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May 22, 2014 19:11
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SedanChair posted:I believe TJ's exact words were Huh? It was a very explicit plan to get people who were killing settlers to go away and stop doing that. IDK what about that suggests a pretext. IDK what, in your mind, would have been a reasonable response given the resources and technology available in the day. I think you should check your living-in-a-safe-modern-society-not-at-all-under-threat-of-indian-attack privilege and get some perspective. Also, ITT we relearn the wisdom that picking a fight and losing has consequences - something our ancestors probably would have considered common sense.
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May 22, 2014 19:13
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Mustang posted:People are arguing that you dense mother fucker. The Indians weren't some kind "noble savage," they did hosed up poo poo to settlers as well. Hell the first person in my family born in North America was orphaned at the age of 5 when his parents were killed in an Indian raid. Sedanchair is an rear end, but he's also right. The systematic killing or removal of an ethnic group from a land is the definition of genocide. Also, the fact that the Natives were willing to kill people who were actively invading and stealing their lands and displace them doesn't make them hosed up, it makes them normal. Or were native peoples just supposed to roll over when Europeans came to steal from, rape, and murder them? Also, I think upthread it was mentioned that this would mean that nearly all empire building is predicated on genocide. I'd have to agree, and it's a big reason why empires are by definition immoral things to create.
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May 22, 2014 19:17
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Pauline Kael posted:OK then, I will hold my breath, as will you I'm sure, while we wait for the "Jefferson == Hitler" brigade to come to your aid.
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May 22, 2014 19:19
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wateroverfire posted:Huh? We have also learned that our ancestors (for those of us who had ancestors in post revolution America!) were a historically unique evil, not equaled until the 20th century and hey, Washington and Jefferson didn't even get the trains to run on time, what complete losers.
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May 22, 2014 19:24
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Mustang posted:That's not at all what I said. And no, there was no systematic extermination of Indians. Never once did I say what we did to the Indians wasn't anything but a tragedy but it genocide it was not. The trail of tears was genocide! You were literally displacing people to the shittiest land possible (Oklahoma) because you wanted their stuff. That fits the loving definition even if you are too dense to figure it out. Forced relocation is a specific attempt to destroy the coherency of a society and thus exterminate it.
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May 22, 2014 19:26
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rkajdi posted:Sedanchair is an rear end, but he's also right. The systematic killing or removal of an ethnic group from a land is the definition of genocide. Also, the fact that the Natives were willing to kill people who were actively invading and stealing their lands and displace them doesn't make them hosed up, it makes them normal. Or were native peoples just supposed to roll over when Europeans came to steal from, rape, and murder them? Just empire building? How about the standard fare of human history? What happened to the Native Americans, while deplorable and horrific by modern standards, was pretty well par for the course any time 2 civilizations collided. Like someone else said, the fight was over before it started because of the Native Americans' lack of exposure to old world pathogens. If Jefferson hadn't been around, or explicitly kept American east of the Appalachians, do you think history would have turned out any differently? Then, ask the same question of the Holocaust. If there was no Hitler, would there have been a Holocaust?
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May 22, 2014 19:28
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wateroverfire posted:Huh? The settlers were invaders. They had a place to go back to-- it was called Europe. The natives had no place to return to.
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May 22, 2014 19:29
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To be fair the word genocide can be applied. Though I think doing so broadens it's definition to where it may also apply to a lot of other examples. So you need people to be consistent on that. Though in the actual text presented the argument was that the Indians were attacking us, therefore we needed to attack back. That's not generally the basis for genocide. When Sedan Chair was presented with the Mongols as a potential example, the response was "well I might call that genocide if authority figures I don't like say the opposite". That's the largest problem on display here. That, and trying to pin responsibility on Jefferson, which is also idiotic.
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May 22, 2014 19:30
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Wait wait wait, are we actually having an argument over whether the genocide of native americans was a genocide? Like, fer serious?Pauline Kael posted:How would you and SedanChair teach early post-colonial American history to 2nd graders? Some bad people were mean to some nice people and the bad people won and you should all feel bad? What kind of wuss elementary school did you go to? What, did they remove the letter X from all the alphabets because three of them in a row is naughty?
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May 22, 2014 19:34
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