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LuciferMorningstar posted:This strikes me as an altogether horrible standard. gameindustry.txt
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May 23, 2014 01:19
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LuciferMorningstar posted:So here's what deeply confuses me: Why is the video game industry the only (consumer-oriented) industry that I can think of in which delays and an inability to adhere to a schedule is not merely expected and grudgingly tolerated, but even defended as appropriate and necessary? This isn't specific to H1Z1, or even the survival genre, but these games certainly seem to have brought out the worst in developers. The fact that literal professionals haven't figured out a good way to deal with scheduling and whatnot is kind of ridiculous, when you think about it. The way I view it is that I would rather them spend a few more weeks/months getting the game a bit more polished or playable vs some of the recent games that have been released and completely unplayable due to server issues or what not for a period of time. It's a lovely thing but I would rather that bit more of work to go into it than them just shoving it out because their time table is up. Hell that is why I am still somewhat optimistic about Rust because they released their alpha, weren't satisfied, and build a whole new game basically so they could do what they want.
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May 23, 2014 02:27
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Kizurue posted:The way I view it is that I would rather them spend a few more weeks/months getting the game a bit more polished or playable vs some of the recent games that have been released and completely unplayable due to server issues or what not for a period of time. It's a lovely thing but I would rather that bit more of work to go into it than them just shoving it out because their time table is up. Hell that is why I am still somewhat optimistic about Rust because they released their alpha, weren't satisfied, and build a whole new game basically so they could do what they want. Oh, don't get me wrong, I also prefer that developers have a more or less finished product when they release something. I'm instead questioning why apparently no one has figured out how to make meaningful estimates about scheduling and how long it will take to do a thing. Alternatively, someone could invent another way of measuring progress. But no one has. They just go "Eh, soon. Maybe tomorrow, maybe in a week." It seems lazy and unprofessional, and I can't really imagining that going well in other industries. SOE has made blunders in this regard. Immediately out of the gate, they were touting the 4-6 week target for early access. Now, 4-6 weeks later, SOE has clammed up, despite maintaining that they're engaging in an "open development cycle," and the company line seems to be "I'm not allowed to talk about that." The reasoning being employed is totally incoherent. tl;dr people are dumb and bad at things E: Smedley posted this on Monday -- "we will be showing gameplay features from h1z1 later this week in different streams. we're getting close" -- It's Friday now and there has been one sub-par stream in which a dude built a bit of a neighborhood. 
LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 08:36 on May 23, 2014 |
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May 23, 2014 02:49
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I'm instead questioning why apparently no one has figured out how to make meaningful estimates about scheduling and how long it will take to do a thing. Because the thing about creating something from nothing is that you don't exactly know what problems you will run into doing it on account of nobody ever having done it before. And while in the abstract so many games are derivative pieces of poo poo, in actual execution they are all perfectly unique snowflakes of coding [Unless they are literally a sequel built on the exact same engine that doesn't try to change anything at all]. Adding an online component/focus only makes it that much work. Something that works fine with 10 people might not work with 100 or 1,000. You can't know until you try to break it. Added complexity also increases the chance you will simply not consider a particularly wacky and game breaking confluences of events until someone starts hacking away at your game. In short, it's hard to call your shot when coding *anything*, but most publishers want a game out at a set time so they can kick in their marketing and all that other bullshit as soon as possible. And also they just want games *out*, because a game in development isn't making them money. So realistically every developer wants to say "When it's done", but they don't have the luxury of doing so. quote:It seems lazy and unprofessional, and I can't really imagining that going well in other industries. That's only because you don't know what the gently caress you are talking about, which is an easy to cure problem. Any creative endeavor is wildly different from a purely mechanistic one, and it has nothing to do with being "lazy" to miss an expected ship date.
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May 23, 2014 11:57
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LuciferMorningstar posted:So here's what deeply confuses me: Why is the video game industry the only (consumer-oriented) industry that I can think of in which delays and an inability to adhere to a schedule is not merely expected and grudgingly tolerated, but even defended as appropriate and necessary? This isn't specific to H1Z1, or even the survival genre, but these games certainly seem to have brought out the worst in developers. The fact that literal professionals haven't figured out a good way to deal with scheduling and whatnot is kind of ridiculous, when you think about it.
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May 23, 2014 13:37
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Boogaleeboo posted:Because the thing about creating something from nothing is that you don't exactly know what problems you will run into doing it on account of nobody ever having done it before. And while in the abstract so many games are derivative pieces of poo poo, in actual execution they are all perfectly unique snowflakes of coding [Unless they are literally a sequel built on the exact same engine that doesn't try to change anything at all]. Adding an online component/focus only makes it that much work. Something that works fine with 10 people might not work with 100 or 1,000. You can't know until you try to break it. Added complexity also increases the chance you will simply not consider a particularly wacky and game breaking confluences of events until someone starts hacking away at your game. Good god this post reads like YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ME, DAD *dies hair black, puts on Cure CD*. Or a post in a prelaunch forum trying to score beta access You might have a point if this was SOE's first rodeo. But it isn't. I don't even think this is a new game engine. Pretty sure SOE started pushing one development platform for all their games many years ago. Even it was totally built from scratch, its not like they don't have - what, 8 other MMOs worth of experience to draw from? The problem with the gaming industry and probably software development itself, is that you can't really fire Bob for missing a deadline of a particular project. Chances are, Bob is the only one that understands the coding so if you shitcan him, what's the ramp up time to replace him? So, basically, the longer you can drag out a project, the longer you get paid. Add in a healthy dose of nepotism and an industry that promotes failure upward, and you have basically no accountability.
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May 23, 2014 16:51
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Tide posted:
No. In any software development project, no matter how small, you deal with a large set of unknowns. In standard engineering terms, it is as if drainage, material strength, decay, usage, and design are all changing each week. The variables in software engineering are subject to more change in fundamental ways in more instances - and the approach used, scope, and defined data structures can make your project impossible and you can only find out after getting halfway done. Compared to the task of making an all-weather 12-lane suspension bridge between two faults, a waterfall, over a harbor under budget within deadline - a software project can add dozens of failure - go back to the start- design points each step. In normal engineering, the bedrock doesn't suddenly turn into taffy. The requirements don't change from 12 lane to 128 to 53 to 14 each week. The equivalent happens all the time in large software projects. The design approach can invalidate itself. It is like suddenly having cement turn into kittens.
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May 23, 2014 17:45
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Republicanus posted:No. This is a good analogy, and not at all stupid and overthought.
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May 23, 2014 17:48
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Azurrat posted:This is a good analogy, and not at all stupid and overthought. I'll assume your sarcasm. I am only speaking from experience in business software - the scope could change based on multiple state's legislative requirements (one example). If we had the wrong approach for account numbering/structure, then our market could be (and was) suddenly restricted by a third. Accounting standards change very rarely but when they do, everything needs to accommodate those changes. If you didn't anticipate - say, fixed asset management for governmental entities - then when the pronouncement comes down, you might have to redo purchasing, banking, and the way end of fiscal year is prepared. That's only 2 examples. I can go on for hours, since I worked in it for 13 years. The comparison to projects as complex as a suspension bridge was deliberate - bridge building is possibly the most complex project a civil engineer will be likely to encounter and has a huge number of unknowns involved. Substrates, formations, fault lines, labor costs, municipal legal requirements - all can impact a bridge project. But software design is subject to many more fundamental changes. I hope that helps your understanding of my points.
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May 23, 2014 19:19
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If you can't understand how hard it is to actually hit a release date for a video game, especially one where lots of players are playing together, then I don't really know what to say.
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May 23, 2014 19:44
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Usually the people who can't realize this are the ones who have never worked in IT in any capacity outside of a school project.
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May 23, 2014 20:16
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You can also sum it up as Smed has his own special Smed reality where time and space are different than everyone else in the real reality. Its why SOE is  .
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May 23, 2014 20:28
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BadLlama posted:You can also sum it up as Smed has his own special Smed reality ... This has to be it - really, my criticisms of the reveal was due to his declaration that what turned out to be H1Z1 would be the game for SWG refugees. For real? I actually thought, "What if SOE bought The Repopulation? That's probably it!" I got all excited for a couple days until I forgot again. Then they showed the game. Oh. Zombies. Okay, I guess? But it was just Smedley being weird. I can't get mad at the guy, he's just not quite on the same page. He's got a new game that he personally seems to enjoy. I think he's just always feeling guilty about SWG, so it comes up in just about every interview and he just babbles.
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May 23, 2014 20:44
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Boogaleeboo posted:Because the thing about creating something from nothing is that you don't exactly know what problems you will run into doing it on account of nobody ever having done it before. And while in the abstract so many games are derivative pieces of poo poo, in actual execution they are all perfectly unique snowflakes of coding [Unless they are literally a sequel built on the exact same engine that doesn't try to change anything at all]. Adding an online component/focus only makes it that much work. Something that works fine with 10 people might not work with 100 or 1,000. You can't know until you try to break it. Added complexity also increases the chance you will simply not consider a particularly wacky and game breaking confluences of events until someone starts hacking away at your game. I can agree that it's hard to call an accurate shot when you're not entirely certain how long something will take, but if you're in a position where you're liable to make several poor estimations, should that not suggest that you, as a publicist, are probably moving too fast? I should clarify that this issue is something of a new phenomenon, because I recall that, in the past, release dates usually worked out reasonably well. Delays were unfortunate exceptions, and not the rule. I assume that is due primarily to less pressure to do some "early access" thing. quote:That's only because you don't know what the gently caress you are talking about, which is an easy to cure problem. Any creative endeavor is wildly different from a purely mechanistic one, and it has nothing to do with being "lazy" to miss an expected ship date. Eh, fine. Not necessarily lazy, but still unprofessional if it's a recurring problem. At some point, coding goes from creative to mechanistic. If the initial planning is done well, issues that crop up in the future will be minimal. poo poo still happens, but if you're waiting until you're reaching a "mostly done" point before making estimations, you end up in a much better position. It's just more logical. The focus of my criticisms aren't the people trying to implement these features, they're doing the best they can, I assume. It's the management that bears responsibility for these faults, because they apparently either do not understand or willfully ignore rational ways to approach assessing release dates. There's a difference between an in-house estimate and a highly-publicized "release around this time." If you're running an "open development cycle," as so many early access games claim to, why not simply eschew using time-oriented estimations and simply throw up a checklist of things that need to get done and let people watch the boxes get ticked off?
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May 23, 2014 21:47
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I should clarify that this issue is something of a new phenomenon, because I recall that, in the past, release dates usually worked out reasonably well. Delays were unfortunate exceptions, and not the rule. These, the most rose coloured of glasses.
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May 23, 2014 21:59
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Azerban posted:These, the most rose coloured of glasses. Just trying to be generous 
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May 23, 2014 22:00
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Eonwe posted:If you can't understand how hard it is to actually hit a release date for a video game, especially one where lots of players are playing together, then I don't really know what to say. No man, you're just not working hard enough, obviously. Work harder stupid!
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May 23, 2014 22:13
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:No man, you're just not working hard enough, obviously. Work harder stupid! Maybe we should throw more manpower at it? Twice the people means twice the speed!
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May 23, 2014 23:05
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LuciferMorningstar posted:There's a difference between an in-house estimate and a highly-publicized "release around this time." If you're running an "open development cycle," as so many early access games claim to, why not simply eschew using time-oriented estimations and simply throw up a checklist of things that need to get done and let people watch the boxes get ticked off?
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May 23, 2014 23:54
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grrarg posted:The weird thing is to compare how SOE is handling H1Z1 and Landmark. The Landmark guy has been posting Blueprints, and they have been pretty good about getting close to the vague dates promised. Is it just a less experienced lead in charge of H1Z1? My guess is that the issue with H1Z1 is feature creep and the need to burn a bunch of man-hours building the massive world that was promised.
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May 24, 2014 00:34
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This interview suggests early access is another 3-5 weeks out. Maybe. Possibly.
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May 25, 2014 02:20
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Hopefully this one will make it, im tired of lame, typical mmo in market atm
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May 26, 2014 11:47
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LuciferMorningstar posted:I should clarify that this issue is something of a new phenomenon, because I recall that, in the past, release dates usually worked out reasonably well. Delays were unfortunate exceptions, and not the rule. I assume that is due primarily to less pressure to do some "early access" thing. I think this is more of a thing to do with how games are delivered nowadays. 10+ years ago, almost everything was physical. I imagine software companies have to book time with CD copying/printing presses in advance, so if you want 500,000 copies of your game made, they will say "Ok your slot is between 27th-30th May", if you miss this, you probably lose out on some kind of deposit or maybe even entire order fee to the printing company. Its massive incentive to get the game out on time as you could lose thousands if not millions for the sake of adding farming to your game or whatever. Once the dates had been finalised, there was no room for scope creep or it would cost you a hell of alot of money. Nowadays with alot of purchases being digital, and physical media being so cheap now, delaying games to add polish/more zombies/farming has the only consequence of pissing off some internet fanboys (Unless its a console game, then generally its primarily disk based still I think) Ahdinko fucked around with this message at 13:51 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 13:47
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Bit of an inconsequential stream tonight, but the stuff the environmental artist is talking about is cool, and it's pretty clear he knows his stuff. Last week's stream was kind of bumbling, but this guy has a pretty clear plan for the stream and knows what he wants to talk about and share. E: The community manager sounds so bored, though... And it's probably not a great sign that you need to have someone sitting in chat repeating "No early access announcements today," and then having the viewer count drop. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 01:45
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I heard a streamer pronounce this "HeeZee". Is that a thing now?
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May 28, 2014 19:32
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Rasmussen posted:I heard a streamer pronounce this "HeeZee". Is that a thing now? I like it. It's better than people saying WoW. "Anyone down to play some Heezy?"
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May 28, 2014 21:27
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Rasmussen posted:I heard a streamer pronounce this "HeeZee". Is that a thing now? Christ I hope not.
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May 28, 2014 21:39
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Livestream tomorrow at 5:30PM PST. Apparently they're showing some gameplay again (finally), and are also going to give away prizes. No idea what the prizes will be, but I bet people are going to be mad when it's not early-access related. E: It does seem likely that they'll hold off until after E3 to go early access. While it's good in that it means we get a game with more content, it's also kind of irritating considering Smedley came out with the early access forecast, knowing when E3 was set to happen, and would have then clammed up in order to leverage E3 for publicity. lovely move, man, even if it is the most logical one. vvvv You're right. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 05:09 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 04:12
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Appalling is a bit of a stretch.
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May 29, 2014 04:46
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Gameplay stream and some sort of giveaway going on right now: https://www.twitch.tv/h1z1
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May 30, 2014 01:35
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Hes lighting zombies on fire with his torch thats p. Cool. Night looks pretty good, but lots of fog, curious to see some weather and day night cycles. E- daytime looks good, seems like the world is getting more fleshed out. Ui and inventory is coming along nicely. 14k viewers on stream. always be closing fucked around with this message at 01:46 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 01:43
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High-caliber weapons (snipers) confirmed.  E: I have a mancrush on Jimmy. And one lucky winner will get A HAT! And mystery event on the 6th. Hm. LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 02:30 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 02:19
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Livestream featuring combat today at 3PM PST. vvv Yeah, it's that. They just kept insisting it would always be on Tuesday, so... LuciferMorningstar fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 21:22
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LuciferMorningstar posted:Livestream featuring combat today at 3PM PST. I think its actually friday 6/6 E- theyve cancelled the stream. Theyre saying that theyre going to get reqdy for e3 instead.... always be closing fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 23:08
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Republicanus posted:
I'm really only quoting this to be a nitpicky rear end, but I'm a small part of some huge projects where variables exist specifically where bedrock turns into taffy and cement might as well turn into kittens. For example, during directional drilling, having the geologist trying to guess what depth the shale formation is, within a few meters, at an overhead cost of $24,000 per hour, and getting it wrong at best means starting over (What's a month cost at $24,000 per hour ?) and at worst means BP Oil Spill.
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Jun 9, 2014 01:29
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Wow. That's terrifying. Thanks for the correction and further info.
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Jun 9, 2014 01:45
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Republicanus posted:Wow. That's terrifying. Thanks for the correction and further info. Well, im being a bit of a blowhard. I mean usually everything works out ok, and at the end of the day even gently caress ups can be fixed. But to say that cement doesn't turn into kittens is a bit of a stretch. I remember last year we accidentally turned a safety pylon (traffic cone) into cement when it was sucked into a blender/pumper. The Energy Company rep came over and actually asked "So what's the reporting policy on sending a pylon 8km into the earth ?"
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Jun 9, 2014 01:57
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Official trailer is live. Looks like a better-developed WarZ, or, put more positively, a less janky and spergy DayZ. Almost exactly what I was hoping for.
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Jun 9, 2014 16:43
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I can work with that
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Jun 9, 2014 17:16
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Early 2000's era animations aside, I'll play it. The Jesus zombies running on water was a nice touch.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:53
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