|
I was just reading this old-timey 2009 Globe and Mail article. quote:Ms. Horwath, 46, who has closer links to organized labour than the other candidates, talked passionately about the NDP sticking to its left-wing principles. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/horwath-wins-ontario-ndp-leadership/article1149744/
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 16:09
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
I remember Fightback twerps pointing to that and (essentially) saying "Mission accomplished".
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 18:05
|
|
|
I just got an e-mail from the ONDP actually bragging about the advertisement on the Toronto Sun, as if it was an accomplishment or something. I don't understand what the hell is going on there. I'm supposed to be happy that they tried to present their ad as news? I'm supposed to be happy that they managed to give money to a right-wing tabloid newspaper to ignore whatever journalistic ethics they have (I know, its the Sun, they don't have any)? And then in the same e-mail you ask for more money do the same sort of poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 18:37
|
|
|
If the vote ends in a PC minority, is there any chance of a Liberal/NDP coalition? I'd like to think anything would be on the centre-left table if Hudak actually tries to implement some of these wingnut policies he's touting. Hell, I could see small-C Tories revolting as well.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 18:56
|
|
|
St. Dogbert posted:If the vote ends in a PC minority, is there any chance of a Liberal/NDP coalition? I'd like to think anything would be on the centre-left table if Hudak actually tries to implement some of these wingnut policies he's touting. Hell, I could see small-C Tories revolting as well. Based on their platforms we'd be more likely to see a Tory/NDP coalition with lots of cuts, as long as auto insurance goes down.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 19:44
|
|
|
Pinterest Mom posted:I remember Fightback twerps pointing to that and (essentially) saying "Mission accomplished". It was really creepy and off-putting.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 20:13
|
|
|
Has Hudak or any other Tory mentioned recall legislation recently? I seem to recall one of the PCs... Rick Hillier was it? who wanted to put forward legislation to recall a premier if the People of Ontario didn't like them very much. If they're in sight of the finish line it's doubtful they'd bring it up now, but I have to wonder if that's not still in the works within the PC system. EDIT: It was Rick Hillier, and it was for MPPs and mayors so it wouldn't bring down an entire government but it could cost a premier of cabinet minister their seat, maybe. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ontario-torys-bill-would-allow-recall-of-misbehaving-mayors-mpps/article15533939/ Anyway, yeah, nothing on that so far, but I wonder if the PCs would still do it if they got into office. HackensackBackpack fucked around with this message at 20:19 on May 23, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 20:14
|
|
|
Don't tell my bosses, but I wouldn't mind a Peterson-Rae style accord if the PCs win a plurality but not a majority of seats. Perhaps an agreement to have one support the other for 2 years, or a full on coalition, after which either party could opt out and call and election. I don't think it's gonna happen though. There's a lot of bad blood between the NDP and Liberal leadership and it would give the PCs the chance to elect a new leader who could point to a DOUBLE SOCIALIST government.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 20:21
|
|
|
Gully Foyle posted:I just got an e-mail from the ONDP actually bragging about the advertisement on the Toronto Sun, as if it was an accomplishment or something. I don't understand what the hell is going on there. I'm supposed to be happy that they tried to present their ad as news? I'm supposed to be happy that they managed to give money to a right-wing tabloid newspaper to ignore whatever journalistic ethics they have (I know, its the Sun, they don't have any)? And then in the same e-mail you ask for more money do the same sort of poo poo. At this point there's a pretty substantial part of the NDP / ONDP who really just want the NDP to be winning. In some cases this is just the natural human desire to be on the winning team. In other cases people have a financial stake in seeing the ONDP do well because its their job. I remember that in 2011 at the NDP victory part in Toronto people were just so god damned happy because the NDP had its best result ever. There didn't seem to be any reflection on the fact that Harper had now won a majority and would be implementing all kinds of cuts. I mean obviously we'd all been working hard and wanted to celebrate the good results, but the sheer amount of triumphalism happening during what any leftist should see as one of the darkest days of the last decade was a little disconcerting to me. The other thing to keep in mind here, and which everyone reading this thread should remember, is that if you care about Ontario politics enough to read this thread then you are not the target audience for political ads or fundraising e-mails. In fact lets just repeat that for the sake of emphasis: if you care about Ontario politics enough to read this thread then you are not the target audience for political ads or fundraising e-mails. If you find yourself having trouble understanding a fundraising pitch or an ad or if you cannot understand why Hudak seems to be doing pretty well in this campaign so far then just remember those words. I really don't like it when people get simplistic and talk about how average voters are dumb, because frankly political disengagement is sorta logical when the system is as lovely as it is, but it needs to be understood that most people perceive politics in a way that is totally alien to anyone who is actually interested in politics.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 20:26
|
|
|
Helsing posted:most people perceive politics in a way that is totally alien to anyone who is actually interested in politics. It's not alien; all you need to do is understand sports fans to understand how the average person sees politics.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
St. Dogbert posted:If the vote ends in a PC minority, is there any chance of a Liberal/NDP coalition? Hahaha what You fuckin killed our government just for the sake of doing it, without even a plan for what to do next, let's be buddies now
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 23:01
|
|
|
DStecks posted:You fuckin killed our government just for the sake of doing it, without even a plan for what to do next, let's be buddies now What would you suggest the Liberals do in the event of a minority government, join with the Conservatives who are just as responsible for "killing" their government, or immediately call another election where only the Conservatives will have any money?
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 23:15
|
|
|
Rutibex posted:It's not alien; all you need to do is understand sports fans to understand how the average person sees politics. That's true to a point, but usually sports fans can at least list off batting averages or the number of goals somebody scores in a season. That's a lot more info than the average voter could give you about the track record of their favourite politicians much of the time.
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 23:28
|
|
|
welp  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-votes-2014/ontario-ndp-supporters-deeply-distressed-by-andrea-horwath-s-campaign-1.2652766quote:Dear Andrea,
|
|
#
?
May 23, 2014 23:57
|
|
|
Wow, Crowe ran in Toronto Centre the last two elections.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 00:37
|
|
|
colonel_korn posted:welp Good on them. As a federal NDP member watching from the outside I am in full agreement with the letter.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 00:43
|
|
|
colonel_korn posted:welp Yea, outside of winning (lol) I don't see her being leader after this election.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 00:48
|
|
|
colonel_korn posted:welp Good As much as I love the NDP they need to be thoroughly punished for this rightward swing. They do more good pushing the discussion leftward from 3rd place than they would actually getting into power by becoming the Conservatives. I want a party that will stand up and say "The conservatives are bad for the economy. There policies will do nothing but harm the less fortunate and increase unemployment." Instead they buy into the exact same neoliberal narrative but try and implement it with a softer hand 
Rutibex fucked around with this message at 01:33 on May 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 01:29
|
|
|
When they lose, the party brass will conclude that they didn't show enough deference to glorious job creators.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 01:32
|
|
|
Niagara Falls Liberal candidate considering legal action over altered tweetquote:A Liberal candidate in the June 12 Ontario election is considering legal action after he says someone altered one of his tweets “to try and make a fool” out of him.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 01:36
|
|
|
THC posted:When they lose, the party brass will conclude that they didn't show enough deference to glorious job creators. I don't understand how these clowns got to run the party, is there any way we can get rid of Horwath and her ilk (outside of grabbing them outside their homes, stuffing them into potato sacks and dumping them in the don river)?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 03:24
|
|
|
I'm sure there are leadership contention channels within the party. As regular citizens we're kind of stuck with the party leaders we have, but you can always pressure your local riding association, maybe, with letters, e-mails, or phone calls, or other avenues of communication that don't involve kidnapping and murder. If you care to get involved with a party there's that option too, and then you'd be able to vote in a leadership race.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 03:44
|
|
|
geese posted:It's not really my department here, but my sense is that the most disgruntled of the base are the people in and around downtown Toronto. Specific planks in the budget that I personally think the base in Toronto would be happy about are (copied from the platform doc): I'm going to stop you here and point out what these items add up to in the budget, along with some comments: 1. ??? I don't know which line items this corresponds to. Promising to close tax loopholes is as generic as you can get and I put zero stock in it without specific limits. I am well on board with raising corporate income taxes, which you should have mentioned. 2&3. 250 million for transit is in the budget, I guess that's above and beyond the Liberal budget? I can't really tell. I'm pretty sure the DRL would take all of that and more if the province committed to funding it, but it's also partly up to the city to decide they seriously want to build the drat thing first. And while I certainly support electrifying tracks and think making the Pearson rail line run on diesel trains was a stupid, short-sighted decision, I wouldn't call it a very high impact project. 4. This averages to around 65 million per year. More money is nice but I'm pretty sure that's going to do gently caress all to impact childcare in the province as a whole. That's what, maybe 5,000 spots, 10,000 if you're really optimistic? I googled quickly and 2 years ago there were over 20,000 people waitlisted for daycare in Toronto alone. 5. Roughly 90-180-270 million per year. I guess this is fine, but again, I think undergraduate education needs more serious reforms than this, and it doesn't address the systemic issues in universities that have led to tuition increases in the first place. 6. 15 million per year. No complaints about this. It's supposed to cover 100,000 low-income children. Does $150/year cover that many? It's enough for two cleanings, but how many kids need more expenses covered than just one cleaning? If it's really that cheap, why isn't it being done already? 7. 2 million per year. Uh... yeah, I'll need more details about this. 8. 5 million per year. Bike lanes actually are surprisingly inexpensive! So no complaints at all. Still need to get cities on board, of course. Hopefully Toronto will boot out the more bike-unfriendly councillors in the next election. 9. 2 million per year. Again, I'm skeptical. Having said that, I don't think those are bad policy planks by any stretch. The reason you're seeing pushback, though, is that these nice promises all add up to about 520 million per year. Compare that to: Job Creation Tax Credit 250 million Reduce the tax rate on small business to 3% ~220 million Create a Manufacturing Investment Tax Credit 125 million Ring of Fire - Completely loving free? Who are you kidding? There's literally nothing budgeted for this. Start an Emerging Industries Fund 56 million We're already at 650 million for various industry/corporate tax credits/giveaways. You know, the things that are supposed to save money by being cut. And these seem to be the things that Horwath is campaigning on, not the more positive ideas above. There's also 180 million/year on a caregiver tax credit, 440 million/year for cutting HST on electricity. These are not really typical progressive policies, they sound more like the kind of boutique tax cuts that federal NDP would criticize Liberals and Conservatives for. One last hilarious thing: Although the link Chajusong posted before works to get to the ONDP's platform, if you go to http://www.ontariondp.ca/, then click "Our Plan", scroll down and go to "Download Plan", it takes you to this page, where you can't download the PDF without entering your... well, someone's email. Ha.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
This is the NDP response to that letter from prominent supporters.quote:“Progressives cannot turn a blind eye to corruption because it weakens the very foundations of our democracy. We need to renew democracy by guaranteeing transparency and accountability. Sunlight is the best disinfectant," said NDP campaign co-chair Gilles Bisson. The first half is basically "Shut up, non-NDPers are responding to our shift away from NDP values." The middle is saying "Here are things we aren't running on, or if we are they're buried in some document so that the centrist voters we're aiming at don't hear about them." Seriously, minimum wage? I don't think Horwath has mentioned that at all, and it makes zero appearances in the actual platform. They're freezing, not lowering, tuition. And one easy way to support caregivers would have been to vote for the Liberal budget that provided a lot of money for seniors' home renovation and raised PSW wages by a third. Finally, that last loving sentence. That's not how the NDP should be responding to criticism, including from people who have run for the NDP in competitive ridings. That's a loving Tea Party response.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 06:50
|
|
|
Coining DINO now. (Dipper In Name Only)
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 11:35
|
|
|
Next time the ONDP phone to ask me to volunteer, I'm going to likely tell them to blow it out their ear.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 15:37
|
|
|
This election gets stupider every day. I get that nobody likes to be criticized but saying, "they're not real NDPers" is the dumbest poo poo. Besides, if they're so against corruption, why did they wait until now to bring down the government and not the budget before? I mean, maybe they figure the votes they can pick up with their shift would be greater than the votes they'd lose. Maybe they think being the party that's a little bit Wynne and a little bit Hudak will offer voters the best of both worlds.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 15:56
|
|
|
Leofish posted:I get that nobody likes to be criticized but saying, "they're not real NDPers" is the dumbest poo poo. Besides, if they're so against corruption, why did they wait until now to bring down the government and not the budget before? In Ontario the opposition is only allowed to bring down the government once a year.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 16:38
|
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:In Ontario the opposition is only allowed to bring down the government once a year. Yes, but isn't the budget that opportunity? Wynne has tabled two budgets and the OLP hasn't gotten noticably more corrupt between spring 2013 and now, I think Leofish's point is that the rationale for pulling the trigger now as opposed to then is hollow. (it always is, because we aren't the target audience.) That said, that particular standing rule at Queen's Park never ceases to irk me but surely if the Opposition actually cared rather than liked using it as a rhetorical club they could get it reversed pretty easily?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 16:52
|
|
|
I know part of Horwath's reasoning for the NDP not supporting this budget as opposed to the last one is that the Liberals didn't give her everything she wanted last time. She did say that, but now it seems like the ONDP is campaigning along the corruption and waste angle that the PCs tried in 2011. It's the NDP that's talking about government corruption and wasted tax dollars, while Hudak and the Tories just keep throwing darts at a dartboard, multiplying the score by 1000 and saying "this is how many jobs we'll create with this policy. " "We'll cut corporate taxes and create... THUD THUD THUD... 40,000 jobs!" Hudak is doing exactly what he should have done last time and is campaigning on a platform of what his party would do if it became the government, instead of just saying "McGuinty Bad!" over and over again. But now, it seems, the NDP is saying, "Wynne Bad!" and this is their thing. Horwath has mentioned child care spaces and school funds on campaign stops before. She mentioned a $12 dollar minimum wage I think the first day of the campaign? But it doesn't seem to be a sticking point. All day Wednesday, every news org's story on her platform was leading with "the NDP will raise corporate taxes!" So, the spin still seems to go against the right-wing "lower taxes, create jobs" grain, but the platform has millions of dollars in grants to "job creators" in it. Meanwhile, her campaign co-chair is throwing accusations of Liberal tampering around. I get Helsing's point that we, in this thread, are not the target audience for most, if not all, of what parties are doing in the campaign. I get that. But Horwath was in a pretty good place before this. A lot of left-wing policy was being put into place or was being seriously considered because she held the keys to the government. It was her choice to prop the Liberals up or bring them down. The only people who were genuinely upset, as far as I can tell, were conservatives, and that's only because their team wasn't calling the shots. There were some items that didn't happen this time around, and so she said something about "oh, well if we can't trust them with these three little promises we can't trust them at all!" ignoring that a good chunk of the province has been calling for the Liberals' heads ever since McGuinty raised taxes after saying "no new taxes." But again, I read the politics threads every day, so I'm probably in too deep.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 17:21
|
|
|
Dallan Invictus posted:Yes, but isn't the budget that opportunity? Wynne has tabled two budgets and the OLP hasn't gotten noticably more corrupt between spring 2013 and now, I think Leofish's point is that the rationale for pulling the trigger now as opposed to then is hollow. That said the Liberals are just as corrupt as they were a year ago isn't a particularly good line either.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 17:52
|
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:I think the NDP should have voted down the budget last year but the Party was broke and Labour insisted that should not. So the difference this year is that the party's not broke?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 17:59
|
|
|
DynamicSloth posted:I think the NDP should have voted down the budget last year but the Party was broke and Labour insisted that should not. Speaking of "things that are just as true now as they were then." The problem with Horwath deciding to bring down the government this time around isn't that it's hypocritical. Nobody really gives a poo poo about the motivations for deciding one way or the other on a confidence vote. But if she's going to throw aside the principles she won the leadership on to go Maximum Middle-Class Job-Creator Populism while also being the last major candidate to put out their platform and thoroughly alienating not just their base but even the Red Dipper/Orange Liberal types they're tacking towards (you have literally accused me of being this in the past so let me assure you I know whereof I speak), how exactly did she think she was going to win this election that, let's remember, she dictated the timing of? Especially since a Horwath win was the only possible outcome of this election that was any better than the status quo and the budget she voted down? What bothers me is that whether you look at it through a lens of tactics or principle, it was a bad call whose likely result at the time it was made looked a lot like the 2011 federal election: Hudak in power, but more NDP seats than Liberal, yay? And my liver cannot take a repeat of the 2011 federal election. Dallan Invictus fucked around with this message at 18:24 on May 24, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:13
|
|
|
Hypothetically, what do the people in this thread think will happen if Hudak wins a slim minority and puts forward a budget that is the Million Jobs Plan in budget form? Would either other party be willing to support it? Recall of course that it would be a budget and therefore a confidence matter, so if they rejected it that would mean another election.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:17
|
|
|
Repeat of 1985? But I think it would be hard for the Libs and NDP to work together.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:Hypothetically, what do the people in this thread think will happen if Hudak wins a slim minority and puts forward a budget that is the Million Jobs Plan in budget form? Would either other party be willing to support it? Recall of course that it would be a budget and therefore a confidence matter, so if they rejected it that would mean another election. Given how soon a budget would have to come down after this election, It would mean another election or the LGov going to the other parties to see if they can form a coalition or at least a Peterson/Rae pact. I'm sure that will go over perfectly well with everybody in both parties.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
vyelkin posted:Hypothetically, what do the people in this thread think will happen if Hudak wins a slim minority and puts forward a budget that is the Million Jobs Plan in budget form? Would either other party be willing to support it? Recall of course that it would be a budget and therefore a confidence matter, so if they rejected it that would mean another election. Immediately at the beginning of a new legislature, would it necessarily mean an election, or would we end up with the leader of the second party trying to form a government?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:28
|
|
|
I just can't really see Horwath and Wynne getting along after the way this election has gone, and I can't see either of them supporting a Hudak minority. I imagine the LGen wouldn't want to call a new election, but I don't really see any coalition prospects that are viable at this point in the campaign anyway. I mean, hell, Wynne would be putting forward the same budget that Horwath already rejected, since that's also their campaign platform, and God knows what the NDP would have to do to get support from either party to form a government.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:43
|
|
|
Is there someone in this thread who knows the OLP caucus well enough to guess if an Emerson-esque OLP-PCPO floor-crossing or two might be plausible if a Hudak minority was slim enough?
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 18:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 08:55 |
|
|
Dallan Invictus posted:Speaking of "things that are just as true now as they were then." I disagree with Horwath a lot but as provincial NDP leaders go her main flaw is not tactical incompetence, she'd increased the size of her caucus by 24% since the last election and will almost certainly hold more seats then she won in 2011. vyelkin posted:I just can't really see Horwath and Wynne getting along after the way this election has gone, and I can't see either of them supporting a Hudak minority. I imagine the LGen wouldn't want to call a new election, but I don't really see any coalition prospects that are viable at this point in the campaign anyway. I mean, hell, Wynne would be putting forward the same budget that Horwath already rejected, since that's also their campaign platform, and God knows what the NDP would have to do to get support from either party to form a government. People in this thread took the election call a lot more personally than the Kathleen Wynne did, for one thing she knew it was coming months ago.
|
|
#
?
May 24, 2014 19:07
|
|