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Rutkowski posted:I've gotten several calls tonight from relatives. They're asking me about possible countries to move to where fascism isn't growing. Canada and the United States.
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May 25, 2014 23:18
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Is France's EP elections results due to what Captain_Maclaine mentioned earlier about EP elections being generally unimportant to the average person so only more motivated parties vote heavily in it, or is it due to in general more FN support? Bad news either way, but somewhat less alarming if those percentages are just because this wasn't an election to decide who gets to run France.
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May 25, 2014 23:18
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Rutkowski posted:I've gotten several calls tonight from relatives. They're asking me about possible countries to move to where fascism isn't growing. Germany. The worst we have is growing euroscepicism. Install Windows posted:Canada and the United States. Don't know if fascists are worse than certain Tea Party members.
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May 25, 2014 23:22
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Install Windows posted:Canada and the United States. Not totally sure about the US (if you believe the SPLC, fascism is always increasing here...), but Canada seems to be doing well enough.
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May 25, 2014 23:24
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Silver2195 posted:Not totally sure about the US (if you believe the SPLC, fascism is always increasing here...), but Canada seems to be doing well enough. Tea party just got dunked on by the establishment so I think we are at least in neutral now. 
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May 25, 2014 23:27
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Torrannor posted:Don't know if fascists are worse than certain Tea Party members. They definitely are. People in mobility scooters hollering about things are a lot less dangerous than actual fascist gangs.
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May 25, 2014 23:28
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Torrannor posted:Germany. The worst we have is growing euroscepicism. On a lightpost outside the prison a nazi sticker could be seen, unmolested. It was also dated. It was put up in 2003.
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May 25, 2014 23:29
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The Tea Party is pretty much dead.
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May 25, 2014 23:29
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DrProsek posted:Is France's EP elections results due to what Captain_Maclaine mentioned earlier about EP elections being generally unimportant to the average person so only more motivated parties vote heavily in it, or is it due to in general more FN support? Bad news either way, but somewhat less alarming if those percentages are just because this wasn't an election to decide who gets to run France. Marine le Pen rehabilitation of FN has hinged entirely on the notion that they are no longer a party of racists, fascists, and nazis, just a bunch of very concerned nationalists, who don't want Brussels/Berlin to take over. Her father talking about releasing ebola on immigrants shatters that illusion, but apparently not enough to people not vote for them on the Euro elections. But this are the Euro elections, and it seems people are more angry at the EU than they are with anything else, so it gets by. On a national level, for the French Presidency, it probably would've tanked her hopes. So for FN to do well in the future they need to crack down on the extra-crazies, and for the French conservatives to keep failing to look like tough guys.(Like the recent declarations by Sarkozy)
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May 25, 2014 23:31
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DrProsek posted:Is France's EP elections results due to what Captain_Maclaine mentioned earlier about EP elections being generally unimportant to the average person so only more motivated parties vote heavily in it, or is it due to in general more FN support? Bad news either way, but somewhat less alarming if those percentages are just because this wasn't an election to decide who gets to run France. Going to go ahead and guess it's a bit of both; the centre losing support and its voter base being too disappointed at their "home parties" to vote for them but also unable to bring themselves to vote for anything else either. Someone from France should be able to give a better idea as to how the election result reflects the society though.
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May 25, 2014 23:33
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Rutkowski posted:I've gotten several calls tonight from relatives. They're asking me about possible countries to move to where fascism isn't growing. Here in Romania the one extremist right-wing party PRM (which isn't exactly fascist as they mix extreme nationalism with a cult of Ceausescu, and most of them are former communists; they're kinda like nazbols but old and they REALLY hate hungarians) has fallen into irrelevancy and only got 1% today, while there hasn't been anyone else to take their place. But of course if ya'll come here you'd have to live among us eastern european untermensch, so I don't know if you gloriously civilized scandinavians would stomach it; maybe try Canada? 
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May 25, 2014 23:36
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DrProsek posted:Is France's EP elections results due to what Captain_Maclaine mentioned earlier about EP elections being generally unimportant to the average person so only more motivated parties vote heavily in it, or is it due to in general more FN support? Bad news either way, but somewhat less alarming if those percentages are just because this wasn't an election to decide who gets to run France. In absolute numbers, it's comparable to earlier FN scores in both legislative and presidential elections. Tonight they got 4.1 million votes, which is more than the first round of 2012's legislative elections, where they got 3.5 million, but less than the 2012 presidential where they got their highest ever total with 6.4 million. However, all these numbers are way higher than the 1.1 million they got in 2009's EP election. As people have stated earlier, Marine Le Pen's effort to make the FN legitimate have obviously somewhat paid off, but a lot of their success is attributable to the extremely low turnout numbers, especially among the young voters. (26% in the 18-24 category, and 23% among the 24-35)
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May 26, 2014 00:15
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:The Tea Party is pretty much dead. Not really, no. They served their purpose, which was to drive the Overton window even further right and make increasingly fringe right-wing beliefs even more acceptable (and even center-left ideas unpalatable).
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May 26, 2014 00:19
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Silver2195 posted:Not totally sure about the US (if you believe the SPLC, fascism is always increasing here...), but Canada seems to be doing well enough. Fascism has a very specific definition and the cultural aspects that breed fascist movements are dying.
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May 26, 2014 00:20
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SALT CURES HAM posted:Not really, no. They served their purpose, which was to drive the Overton window even further right and make increasingly fringe right-wing beliefs even more acceptable (and even center-left ideas unpalatable). They didn't drive the overton window to the right or make left ideas unpalatable. They actively sabotaged several attempts by the democrats to enact and approve rightist policy. 
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May 26, 2014 00:25
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computer parts posted:Fascism has a very specific definition and the cultural aspects that breed fascist movements are dying. This is probably true; I was just noting some uncertainty. I should have made clearer that the reference to the SPLC was partly facetious.
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May 26, 2014 00:58
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I still find the fact that apparently most of the Eastern Hemisphere actually needs to have ongoing anti-fascist groups baffling, in that you really would think that people'd have taken a hint by now.
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May 26, 2014 01:00
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Install Windows posted:I still find the fact that apparently most of the Eastern Hemisphere actually needs to have ongoing anti-fascist groups baffling, in that you really would think that people'd have taken a hint by now. In fairness it only really seems to be Europe and maybe some Middle Eastern countries.
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May 26, 2014 01:02
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:The Tea Party is pretty much dead. The Tea Party is much less worse than eurofascism, but the Tea Party is alive and well, in its new incarnation known as the "GOP establishment".
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May 26, 2014 01:27
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Negative Entropy posted:And the award for "Most Short-Sighted Statement of 2014" goes to... If you think the establishment's policies have changes you're the fool here.
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May 26, 2014 01:28
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Install Windows posted:If you think the establishment's policies have changed you're the fool here.
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May 26, 2014 01:34
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Silver2195 posted:Not totally sure about the US (if you believe the SPLC, fascism is always increasing here...), but Canada seems to be doing well enough. Speaking as someone living in Canada I agree that we're a bit behind right now, but looking at our current trajectory I'm sure we'll be catching up with Europe given enough time.
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May 26, 2014 02:47
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Bob le Moche posted:Speaking as someone living in Canada I agree that we're a bit behind right now, but looking at our current trajectory I'm sure we'll be catching up with Europe given enough time. On what basis?
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May 26, 2014 02:52
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computer parts posted:In fairness it only really seems to be Europe and maybe some Middle Eastern countries. It is an issue in most of South, Southeast, and East Asia it just doesn't get as much coverage in English-speaking media
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May 26, 2014 02:58
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Install Windows posted:On what basis? About Canada, I meant basically stuff like this thing. Here's a list of recent developments. In the current broader context can we really hope for a reversal of such policies down the line? Obviously there isn't any actual fascism at the moment, but Canadian society has undergone changes in recent years that put it on a dangerous trajectory of accelerating crisis. We're seeing racist rhetoric being put to political ends in Quebec and BC (don't know enough about what's been happening elsewhere recently, but widespread institutional anti-aboriginal racism is always a safe bet in Canada. Some of the talking points around the temporary workers program are also pretty worrying) When poo poo goes really bad (as it will eventually given current economic policies), we're going to see that kind of scapegoating rhetoric ramping up along with the ongoing efforts to construct a Canadian national identity. The heavy police suppression of leftist protest movements in Toronto and Montreal is also a bad sign. No fascism yet, but given that we're following the same neoliberal recipe as everybody else there's nothing indicating that it won't happen here as well when the crisis deepens.
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May 26, 2014 04:04
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Bob le Moche posted:No fascism yet, but given that we're following the same neoliberal recipe as everybody else there's nothing indicating that it won't happen here as well when the crisis deepens. Yes there is, fascism does not have a history in Canada and there's no blood and soil aspect to build a fascist movement on. This is the same reason fascist movements fizzled in the US, even in the height of the depression. Note: being conservative and racist is in no way the same as being fascist.
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May 26, 2014 04:18
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There may not be "blood and soil" ideology in most of Canada but there most certainly is a strain of that thinking in Quebec. See the Quebec Charter of Values nonsense. However, that's not at all what the current Conservative government is tapping into. The Conservative government's ideology is mostly grounded in old-school British Imperial essentials like the monarchy, the military and Christianity. Duty, honour and the Crown style of thing. It can be very conservative, but from a very different basis than fascism properly so-called.
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May 26, 2014 04:43
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My understanding of fascism is pretty specific, and it's always difficult to agree on a definition. The term itself has been so instrumentalized for propaganda purposes since WW2 that at this point it basically just means "evil" for most people. Even some of the best writing about fascism I've seen often only goes as far as looking at "symptoms", rather than attempting an explanation of the root causes of it. I tend not to pay a lot of attention to surface manifestations such as use of symbols or rethoric because fascism keeps reinventing itself and stealing whatever talking points appear to work for other ideologies in any given context. There's also a tendency to only ever apply the label of fascism to European movements for some reason, which I try to avoid. I see fascism as what happens in a liberal democracy when capitalism reaches an unprecedented moment of crisis. As dysfunction develops in the economy the liberal and democratic structure of the government comes to conflict with the material hyper-concentration of power and ownership by the ruling class, and a point is reached when the usual institutions of control such as the police and mass media are no longer sufficient to ensure "stability" of the increasingly contested and precarious system. A place for something that goes beyond this, fascism, emerges. Although "true-believer" fascists are always a minority, extreme crisis makes it no longer possible to stay "moderate" in the political landscape. Against instability and looming collapse we are given the choice to either side with the fascists out of necessity for the sake of stability and of the rule of law, or to be labelled as an unreasonable and dangerous left-radical. The usual means of distraction from class struggle such as racist scapegoating, class-collaborationism for the sake of nationalism, male supremacy, and obsession with combating crime with violence reach their extreme point of conclusion in fascism. I see something like this as being unfortunately quite likely to eventually take place in most capitalist democracies, and I don't think I would be alone in labelling such a development as "fascist". It might end up looking totally different from the kind of fascism we've historically seen so far, though. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 04:50 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 04:45
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Zohar posted:It is an issue in most of South, Southeast, and East Asia it just doesn't get as much coverage in English-speaking media I know there's a strong junta streak but I don't know if it's fascist specifically.
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May 26, 2014 04:45
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Bob le Moche posted:My understanding of fascism is pretty specific, and it's always difficult to agree on a definition. The term itself has been so instrumentalized for propaganda purposes since WW2 that at this point it basically just means "evil" for most people. Even some of the best writing about fascism I've seen often only goes as far as looking at "symptoms", rather than attempting an explanation of the root causes of it. I tend not to pay a lot of attention to surface manifestations such as use of symbols or rethoric because fascism keeps reinventing itself and stealing whatever talking points appear to work for other ideologies in any given context. There's also a tendency to only ever apply the label of fascism to European movements for some reason, which I try to avoid. But what we have seen in the USA and Canada, historically, is that the fascists that try to spring up when crises happen get swept away by more traditional forms of conservatism and general opposition. They don't even make it to any sort of regional popularity, and they're unlikely to ever do so in the future. It is not the jack boot that threatens, but mere Reaganite conservatism.
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May 26, 2014 04:52
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Install Windows posted:But what we have seen in the USA and Canada, historically, is that the fascists that try to spring up when crises happen get swept away by more traditional forms of conservatism and general opposition. They don't even make it to any sort of regional popularity, and they're unlikely to ever do so in the future. Historically fascism has never come close to having any kind of power in the US or Canada, that's true. Why is this, though? I don't want to fall back on some kind of exceptionalism as the answer. The thing about Reaganite conservatism is that I don't believe that it's sustainable. Can it just keep going forever? What happens when it turns out not to be the end of history and it breaks?
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May 26, 2014 05:08
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Bob le Moche posted:Historically fascism has never come close to having any kind of power in the US or Canada, that's true. Why is this, though? I don't want to fall back on some kind of exceptionalism as the answer. Nearly all European countries have a direct "nation" basis for themselves. Which includes having an unambiguous ethnicity easily covering 90% or more of the nation's territory, that ethnicity's language being in charge, etc. All this makes it easy for a fascist group to build itself up, there is ein volk that's clearly the owners. Contrast that to the US or Canada, where there is no pure ethnic groups in large enough numbers, and the dominant culture is a melding of a couple of distinct groups - and further there's a strong country-wide adoration, even fetishization of "democracy" even if people are willing to make that "democracy" harder for a few others to participate in. This is not really a case of exceptionalism, and frankly it also applies to slightly lesser extents all over the Americas - one will note that most fascist/pseudofascist regimes in central/south america were installed with the approval of other countries rather than being the result of support from within.
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May 26, 2014 05:18
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Install Windows posted:Nearly all European countries have a direct "nation" basis for themselves. Which includes having an unambiguous ethnicity easily covering 90% or more of the nation's territory, that ethnicity's language being in charge, etc. All this makes it easy for a fascist group to build itself up, there is ein volk that's clearly the owners. Contrast that to the US or Canada, where there is no pure ethnic groups in large enough numbers, and the dominant culture is a melding of a couple of distinct groups - and further there's a strong country-wide adoration, even fetishization of "democracy" even if people are willing to make that "democracy" harder for a few others to participate in. All nations are made up to begin with, though. The Italian nation was a pretty young concept when fascism emerged, and Germany hadn't been around for that long either. US nationalism is certainly a powerful force and Canadian nationalism is quite underplayed (witnessed it recently during Boston v Montreal hockey street riots). I totally see how constructing a national ideal is much less obvious for some places than for others, but I'm not convinced it's ever impossible.
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May 26, 2014 05:33
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Bob le Moche posted:All nations are made up to begin with, though. The Italian nation was a pretty young concept when fascism emerged, and Germany hadn't been around for that long either. US nationalism is certainly a powerful force and Canadian nationalism is quite underplayed (witnessed it recently during Boston v Montreal hockey street riots). I totally see how constructing a national ideal is much less obvious for some places than for others, but I'm not convinced it's ever impossible. Young concepts, but concepts that were vastly popular and rooted in notions of irredentism and recent conquest. Where are the Canadian peoples who have not yet been returned to Father Canada, after all? But an Italian could certainly tell you where the noble Italians were that weren't yet under the umbrella of Italy in 1924, and some even profess to do it now.
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May 26, 2014 05:39
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Bob le Moche posted:All nations are made up to begin with, though. The Italian nation was a pretty young concept when fascism emerged, and Germany hadn't been around for that long either. US nationalism is certainly a powerful force and Canadian nationalism is quite underplayed (witnessed it recently during Boston v Montreal hockey street riots). I totally see how constructing a national ideal is much less obvious for some places than for others, but I'm not convinced it's ever impossible. What are the common language, culture and ethnicity of the American and Canadian nations?
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May 26, 2014 11:45
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English and American
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May 26, 2014 11:52
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There wasn't a common French culture in France as well.
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May 26, 2014 11:55
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Kurtofan posted:There wasn't a common French culture in France as well.
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May 26, 2014 12:11
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Yes when i think of a common, unified people in language, culture and tradition i think of Italy and Spain.
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May 26, 2014 12:19
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Nintendo Kid posted:Young concepts, but concepts that were vastly popular and rooted in notions of irredentism and recent conquest. Where are the Canadian peoples who have not yet been returned to Father Canada, after all? But an Italian could certainly tell you where the noble Italians were that weren't yet under the umbrella of Italy in 1924, and some even profess to do it now. Fascism does not need to manifest through territorial revanchism. I mean if you're going to go "but look fascism is a totally different thing from far-right reactionary authoritarianism" you're really just splitting hairs.
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May 26, 2014 12:20
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