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Mans posted:Yes when i think of a common, unified people in language, culture and tradition i think of Italy and Spain. Or Germany.
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May 26, 2014 12:42
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I think it was much more important to have a common heritage and roughly similar culture, while being different from those around you.
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May 26, 2014 12:47
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http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-jewish-men-attacked-badly-hurt-outside-french-synagogue/ It begins.
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May 26, 2014 13:07
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Mans posted:Yes when i think of a common, unified people in language, culture and tradition i think of Italy and Spain. Yes exactly, thanks for proving my point. Both Italy and Spain have strong independence/automatist (i don't even know if that's the proper word but I'm going to go with it) national movements drawn on a common language, culture and ethnic lines. It is the failure of the Spanish and Italian nation-state to accept that it really is a multi-national state. Where I would argue that America and Canada are non-national states. The usual play of ethnic nationalism is never going to play well in the US.
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May 26, 2014 13:15
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KoldPT posted:http://www.timesofisrael.com/two-jewish-men-attacked-badly-hurt-outside-french-synagogue/ You are making a point. But it will probably not be the one you think you are making, especially not if the attackers end up being immigrant muslims who are responsible for roughly 80% of antisemitic attacks in France.
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May 26, 2014 13:29
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The fact that Lepen has an extreme Pro-israel stance is probably not helping things, though. Also, many Muslims in France aren't immigrants, you mean "immigrant descended". Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 13:36 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 13:32
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http://yle.fi/uutiset/helsinki_university_attack_trial_begins_with_nazi_salute/7262663 http://yle.fi/uutiset/prosecutor_pair_planned_to_kill_50_at_university_with_guns_and_gas/7262776 quote:The prosecutor in the Helsinki University attack trial says the two accused were planning to kill 50 random people and were in possession of a large number of items apparently intended for use in the attack. These included devices for preparing poisonous gases, gas masks, hundreds of bullets, knives, handcuffs and a crossbow. Other news sites reported that the fascist idiots were, in their own words, "terrorised by humanists" and wanted revenge.
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May 26, 2014 13:58
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computer parts posted:I know there's a strong junta streak but I don't know if it's fascist specifically. I'm not talking about dictatorships, I'm talking about far-right racist-nationalist popular sentiment.
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May 26, 2014 14:33
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Kurtofan posted:The fact that Lepen has an extreme Pro-israel stance is probably not helping things, though. "Extreme pro Israel" She says Jews are Frenchmen (probably lying there), opposes new settlements, and supports a Palestinian state. I think you are getting her confused with Wilders. If there is one thing I have noticed about the radical right in Europe, there is no concrete ideology behind them, besides hating Muslims.
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May 26, 2014 15:24
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My bad, then. She does try to aggressively meet with Israeli politicians though, when she was at the UN she managed to meet one.
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May 26, 2014 15:38
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Crowsbeak posted:"Extreme pro Israel" She says Jews are Frenchmen (probably lying there), opposes new settlements, and supports a Palestinian state. I think you are getting her confused with Wilders. If there is one thing I have noticed about the radical right in Europe, there is no concrete ideology behind them, besides hating Muslims. Most of them are anti-EU too, right?
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May 26, 2014 15:42
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YF-23 posted:Fascism does not need to manifest through territorial revanchism. This. A link of the nation to the government as well as a focus on perceived "threats to the nation", focused with corporatism to prevent any labour gains, while not as evil as historical fascism, are pretty much the same loving thing. American minutemen attempting to keep about the "drat Mexicans" with power in Arizona to attempt to illegalize individuals because of their skin colour seem like precursors to blackshirts to me. Torrannor posted:I think it was much more important to have a common heritage and roughly similar culture, while being different from those around you. "White" nationalism is what is used in North America. European heritage that they cling to as some sort of better ideal. MatchaZed fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 26, 2014 |
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May 26, 2014 21:24
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I think I found the problem here
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May 27, 2014 04:04
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Is it possible to oppose immigration without being fascist or even far-right? Are there any parties that are pulling that off successfully?
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May 27, 2014 09:57
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Pretty much every party wants to have at least some check on immigration, but if you mean a full stop of immigration then yeah that's impossible without being nuts.
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May 27, 2014 10:44
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Doctor Malaver posted:Is it possible to oppose immigration without being fascist or even far-right? Are there any parties that are pulling that off successfully? It's generally acknowledged by everyone except the far left and far right that both unlimited immigration and zero immigration are bad things. So, depending on what you mean by "oppose immigration" yes?
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May 27, 2014 11:06
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Crowsbeak posted:"Extreme pro Israel" She says Jews are Frenchmen (probably lying there), opposes new settlements, and supports a Palestinian state. I think you are getting her confused with Wilders. If there is one thing I have noticed about the radical right in Europe, there is no concrete ideology behind them, besides hating Muslims. They all seem to like Putin. I guess it's because he's a big man in charge and commands tanks and poo poo.
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May 27, 2014 11:31
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Sucrose posted:It's generally acknowledged by everyone except the far left and far right that both unlimited immigration and zero immigration are bad things. So, depending on what you mean by "oppose immigration" yes? So the differences are mostly in quotas? Like, right party wants to allow X immigrants in the next four years, and left party wants 3X? I'm asking as someone from a country with no immigration issues.
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May 27, 2014 11:51
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OgO posted:"The male suspect said through his lawyer that he had been bullied at his upper secondary school, and had been considering various plans to kill people for years." This is not the best defense I have ever heard.
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May 27, 2014 12:26
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Doctor Malaver posted:So the differences are mostly in quotas? Like, right party wants to allow X immigrants in the next four years, and left party wants 3X? I'm asking as someone from a country with no immigration issues. I'd imagine the far-right parties don't want to import poverty, and the far-left explicitly does want to import people from poor countries as a social justice/reparations move. Think skilled vs. unskilled immigration.
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May 27, 2014 12:48
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Doctor Malaver posted:So the differences are mostly in quotas? Like, right party wants to allow X immigrants in the next four years, and left party wants 3X? I'm asking as someone from a country with no immigration issues. Meanwhile, the far left, as 'on the left' said, see the whole thing from a social justice perspective, which means not sorting good and bad immigrants in that way. This obviously means opening up to a much greater quantity of immigration, but it's not a simple quota. I'm quite certain for example that the Danish People's Party would be in favor of increased immigration if it meant immigration was solely
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May 27, 2014 13:09
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Thanks, that's interesting. Is the social justice/reparations aspect stronger in former colonial powers? For instance I can imagine that the Brits or the French should feel more obligated to accept immigrants than Swedes or Germans.
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May 27, 2014 14:16
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the battle over Commonwealth immigration in the UK ended across the 1960s and 1970s; those arguing in favour of retaining the commitment toward the Commonwealth lost. the modern UK social-justice/immigration battle is over spousal and asylum immigration instead.
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May 27, 2014 14:23
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Doctor Malaver posted:Thanks, that's interesting. Is the social justice/reparations aspect stronger in former colonial powers? For instance I can imagine that the Brits or the French should feel more obligated to accept immigrants than Swedes or Germans. Germans ? You're kidding right? I mean its not like they didn't fight a war to dominate Europe and Africa with them on the top in a racial hierarchy or anything? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 18:03 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 14:50
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hey they fought that war during a time of belief in Blood and Soil. nobody saw the Green Revolution coming! I wonder what the Nazis would have thought of Germany being so labour-strapped as rapidly as the 1950s economic miracle that it was importing tons and tons of Slavs and Italians and Turks to work in the factories sustaining the boom
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May 27, 2014 14:53
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Considering the nazis themselves imported millions of primarily slavic workers to work inside Germany, probably not a lot.
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May 27, 2014 15:36
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 Interesting choice of colours for the Polish forced workers badge 
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May 27, 2014 15:44
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and not one party advocates open borders?
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May 27, 2014 15:55
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I think the Communist Party of Great Britain still does, just as it did in the 1960s
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May 27, 2014 15:58
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Feminist Initiative, Green Party and Left Party in Sweden all support unlimited immigration.
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May 27, 2014 17:05
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Regarde Aduck posted:They all seem to like Putin. I guess it's because he's a big man in charge and commands tanks and poo poo. Rumor has it that they like him because he's funding them.
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May 27, 2014 18:30
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Folderol posted:Rumor has it that they like him because he's funding them. I preferred it when Russia was funding left wing groups.
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May 27, 2014 20:18
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Crowsbeak posted:Germans ? You're kidding right? I mean its not like they didn't fight a war to dominate Europe and Africa with them on the top in a racial hierarchy or anything? I was thinking more in terms of colonial empires first drawing resources from colonies and then accept immigration from them... But yeah I see your point.
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May 27, 2014 20:24
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The left, which is the dominant and active policy of the time, thinks that nations are obligated to immigrate anyone no matter how destructive it is in terms of crime, welfare obligation, or cultural disruption. The "far-right" "fascists" think countries should only immigrate those that are somehow beneficial to the country.
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May 27, 2014 22:12
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Crowsbeak posted:Germans ? You're kidding right? I mean its not like they didn't fight a war to dominate Europe and Africa with them on the top in a racial hierarchy or anything? The difference is that Germany surrendered unconditionally to those it attacked, while the colonial powers were only forced out of their colonies or even left voluntarily. No colonized nation ever attacked one of their former masters at their home.
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May 27, 2014 22:29
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Kyrie eleison posted:The left, which is the dominant and active policy of the time, thinks that nations are obligated to immigrate anyone no matter how destructive it is in terms of crime, welfare obligation, or cultural disruption. The "far-right" "fascists" think countries should only immigrate those that are somehow beneficial to the country. This is true, some people value human life over the arbitrarily-defined well-being of imaginary institutions like a "country". No need to put scare quotes around the words "far-right" and "fascists" when you're talking about people who think that a good reason for being denied the rights they themselves enjoy is coming from a poorer country, or because it might threaten the superiority of the nation.
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May 27, 2014 22:31
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Kyrie eleison posted:The left, which is the dominant and active policy of the time, thinks that nations are obligated to immigrate anyone no matter how destructive it is in terms of crime, welfare obligation, or cultural disruption. The "far-right" "fascists" think countries should only immigrate those that are somehow beneficial to the country. I sort of hope you are trolling, but no. The "left" does not. Edit: wait, I remember you. Aren't you the borderline sedevacantist monarchist?
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May 27, 2014 22:36
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Bob le Moche posted:This is true, some people value human life over the arbitrarily-defined well-being of imaginary institutions like a "country". So you are saying that every party or person that doesn't stand for unlimited immigration is fascist?
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May 27, 2014 22:55
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Doctor Malaver posted:I was thinking more in terms of colonial empires first drawing resources from colonies and then accept immigration from them... But yeah I see your point. GreyjoyBastard posted:Edit: wait, I remember you. Aren't you the borderline sedevacantist monarchist?
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May 27, 2014 22:59
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Doctor Malaver posted:So you are saying that every party or person that doesn't stand for unlimited immigration is fascist? No I wouldn't say that, using the term in such a broad way would undermine its usefulness. However I would not use "fascist" in scare quotes when referring to right-wing positions as a way of implying that they are good ideas which are unreasonably associated with reaction.
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May 27, 2014 23:04
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