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Bob le Moche posted:No I wouldn't say that, using the term in such a broad way would undermine its usefulness. However I would not use "fascist" in scare quotes when referring to right-wing positions as a way of implying that they are good ideas which are unreasonably associated with reaction. You did say it; the implication of saying there is "no need to put scare quotes" is that the word fascist was appropriate for anyone who does not allow unlimited immigration.
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May 27, 2014 23:22
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I sort of hope you are trolling, but no. The "left" does not. He's the weird Catholic dude who's really into the prosperity gospel.
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May 27, 2014 23:27
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Darth Walrus posted:He's the weird Catholic dude who's really into the prosperity gospel. No, that was his original gimmick. Then he dropped it and became a generic Nite Crew-type poster.
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May 27, 2014 23:35
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The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) is that leftists have continually and unapologetically accused people of being Nazis and racists and Hitlers for holding completely sensible and innocuous beliefs, to the extent that people no longer care if they are called that. In your zeal to "shift the Overton window" ever leftward, you have reduced all of those words to meaninglessness. Now when a moderate person hears them, they hear overwrought bluster and nothing more. Well done.
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May 27, 2014 23:36
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Doctor Malaver posted:So you are saying that every party or person that doesn't stand for unlimited immigration is fascist? No but the ones suggesting there currently is unlimited immigration usually are
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May 27, 2014 23:40
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Doctor Malaver posted:So you are saying that every party or person that doesn't stand for unlimited immigration is fascist? I'd say preventing anyone from seeking a better life after they've abandoned their home qualifies as at least a major dick move on humanitarian grounds.
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May 27, 2014 23:50
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) is that leftists have continually and unapologetically accused people of being Nazis and racists and Hitlers for holding completely sensible and innocuous beliefs, to the extent that people no longer care if they are called that. In your zeal to "shift the Overton window" ever leftward, you have reduced all of those words to meaninglessness. Now when a moderate person hears them, they hear overwrought bluster and nothing more. Well done. I don't know what world you're living in where the Overton window has been shifting to the left in the last decades
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May 28, 2014 00:18
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Bob le Moche posted:I don't know what world you're living in where the Overton window has been shifting to the left in the last decades That was clearly referring to an attempt, regardless of whether it succeeded or not.
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May 28, 2014 00:19
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computer parts posted:That was clearly referring to an attempt, regardless of whether it succeeded or not. Kyrie eleison posted:The left, which is the dominant and active policy of the time. Not that clear to me
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May 28, 2014 00:21
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) Multi-culti has failed, everywhere you go in Europe there are dusky plumbers from a point to the east of you. Nothing to do but dive wholeheartedly back into an ideology that killed millions! I learned it from watching you, Left.
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May 28, 2014 00:28
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) is that leftists have continually and unapologetically accused people of being Nazis and racists and Hitlers for holding completely sensible and innocuous beliefs, to the extent that people no longer care if they are called that. In your zeal to "shift the Overton window" ever leftward, you have reduced all of those words to meaninglessness. Now when a moderate person hears them, they hear overwrought bluster and nothing more. Well done. I missed you, buddy.
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May 28, 2014 00:34
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I had someone tell me that multiculturalism has been a more destructive ideology for Europe than Fascism, including both world wars and the holocaust. Weirdly enough it was a Flanderan (?) exchange student in the US and proud libertarian
Sheng-Ji Yang fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 01:18
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Weirdly enough it was a Flanderan (?) exchange student in the US and proud libertarian That's the least weird thing I can conceive of.
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May 28, 2014 01:27
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:I had someone tell me that multiculturalism has been a more destructive ideology for Europe than Fascism, including both world wars and the holocaust. Weirdly enough it was a Flanderan (?) exchange student in the US and proud libertarian Flemish is the adjective, but I'm not surprised a libertarian believes that.
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May 28, 2014 01:30
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) is that leftists have continually and unapologetically accused people of being Nazis and racists and Hitlers for holding completely sensible and innocuous beliefs, to the extent that people no longer care if they are called that. In your zeal to "shift the Overton window" ever leftward, you have reduced all of those words to meaninglessness. Now when a moderate person hears them, they hear overwrought bluster and nothing more. Well done. I think there's a grain of truth in that the word "racist" is applied too broadly, although it's trolling or huge exaggeration to say that causes the return of fascism. As an Eastern European I first tried to understand what's considered racism on SA, and to change some thought patterns if they are truly wrong and racist, but after some time I was overwhelmed and I resigned. Racism is apparently ever-permeating like sin in Catholicism - try as hard as you can but you'll always be a sinner. So I kind of accepted that I'm a racist and I'll always be one, and all my family and all my friends too (regardless of the fact that most of them vote left and are anti-nationalist)...
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May 28, 2014 02:02
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Kyrie eleison posted:The reason fascism is returning to Europe (well, aside for the catastrophic effects of leftist policy) is that leftists have continually and unapologetically accused people of being Nazis and racists and Hitlers for holding completely sensible and innocuous beliefs, to the extent that people no longer care if they are called that. In your zeal to "shift the Overton window" ever leftward, you have reduced all of those words to meaninglessness. Now when a moderate person hears them, they hear overwrought bluster and nothing more. Well done. Such as?
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May 28, 2014 02:14
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"Well, people have been talking about history's greatest monster so much I guess he can't be that bad. I suppose it's time to head butt a foreigner then!" gently caress off.
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May 28, 2014 02:18
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I love how someone can be so stupid as to blame the side of politics that has been aggressively downsized, thanks to globalization and union busting. Yeah man, that political force that is weaker than it has been in decades is running everything. The aggressive spying that police do against leftists holding tea-and-biscuit meetings while fascists get a free pass: that's, like, just a show.
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May 28, 2014 02:19
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rudatron posted:Yeah man, that political force that is weaker than it has been in decades is running everything. The aggressive spying that police do against leftists holding tea-and-biscuit meetings while fascists get a free pass: that's, like, just a show. It's a coward's view. "You're gonna make 'em mad! You're polarizing them!" It comes from the recognition that we're on the same side but a total unwillingness to align with the left purely because it would be embarrassing.
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May 28, 2014 02:22
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Doctor Malaver posted:I think there's a grain of truth in that the word "racist" is applied too broadly, although it's trolling or huge exaggeration to say that causes the return of fascism. As an Eastern European I first tried to understand what's considered racism on SA, and to change some thought patterns if they are truly wrong and racist, but after some time I was overwhelmed and I resigned. Racism is apparently ever-permeating like sin in Catholicism - try as hard as you can but you'll always be a sinner. So I kind of accepted that I'm a racist and I'll always be one, and all my family and all my friends too (regardless of the fact that most of them vote left and are anti-nationalist)... If you replace the "they determined to act such because race(melanin in your skin or whatever)" with "they are determined to act such because X". How is that better? Its very simple really, if you are an oval office against other or are having oval office opinions against other with vague and general delimiters. Then thats a problem.
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May 28, 2014 02:23
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rudatron posted:I love how someone can be so stupid as to blame the side of politics that has been aggressively downsized, thanks to globalization and union busting. The left is dying precisely as a consequence of it's role as the friendly mask for neoliberalism. The left has abandoned worker rights and socialism in favor of social liberalism and corporate friendly policies.
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May 28, 2014 02:30
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Neoliberalism is the hegemonic ideology of our times and it obtained that hegemony through force. The left didn't commit suicide, it was killed. That's why we get people in year 2014 unironically talk about how we need to get rid of these 'crime, welfare obligation, culture disrupting' elements of society, which are of course a result of the ~foreign elements~ in the body politics, ie- psuedo-scientific bullshit that ignores systemic causes and scapegoats minorities.
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May 28, 2014 02:38
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People realize there's plenty of European liberals who are also against immigration controls because individual freedom for happiness and prosperity means the state shouldn't stop someone from having a go at a better life, right? Europe isn't flooding in immigrants, only ridiculous right wingers think such a thing. The left isn't advocating for "unlimited immigration" because such a thing is ridiculous, it's painting the entirety of Africa as a massive line of people just gunning to jump ship. The left advocates not letting people to drown in the Mediterranean or in horrifying refugee camps in Lebanon, Turkey or Israel or in shoddy social project neighborhoods with poo poo schools, no jobs and no future. They also defend that white nationals also shouldn't live in shoddy social project neighborhoods with poo poo schools, no jobs and no future. Stop strawmaning immigration policies out of the rear end. SickZip posted:The left is dying precisely as a consequence of it's role as the friendly mask for neoliberalism. The left has abandoned worker rights and socialism in favor of social liberalism and corporate friendly policies.
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May 28, 2014 02:40
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SickZip posted:The left is dying precisely as a consequence of it's role as the friendly mask for neoliberalism. The left has abandoned worker rights and socialism in favor of social liberalism and corporate friendly policies. And one of those corporate-friendly policies is open borders (or at least a permissive immigration policy), which ensures that corporations have all the cheap labor they want. And if the country has any kind of welfare state, then the immigrants get benefits, which drives opposition to said welfare state and by extension any taxes that would be needed to pay for it.
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May 28, 2014 02:47
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Mans posted:Europe isn't flooding in immigrants, only ridiculous right wingers think such a thing. The left isn't advocating for "unlimited immigration" because such a thing is ridiculous, it's painting the entirety of Africa as a massive line of people just gunning to jump ship. The left advocates not letting people to drown in the Mediterranean or in horrifying refugee camps in Lebanon, Turkey or Israel or in shoddy social project neighborhoods with poo poo schools, no jobs and no future. They also defend that white nationals also shouldn't live in shoddy social project neighborhoods with poo poo schools, no jobs and no future. This statement seems to presuppose that there's some fixed level of emigration from undeveloped countries that would exist regardless of how welcoming developed countries are. While that's probably true of say, refugees fleeing Syria, there's no reason to believe it's true of economic migrants who are simply looking for better jobs. Those migrants will be drawn to places that are more welcoming, and so the permissiveness of immigration policies will have an effect on how many arrive.
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May 28, 2014 02:55
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thekeeshman posted:And one of those corporate-friendly policies is open borders (or at least a permissive immigration policy), which ensures that corporations have all the cheap labor they want. And if the country has any kind of welfare state, then the immigrants get benefits, which drives opposition to said welfare state and by extension any taxes that would be needed to pay for it. Yeah, exactly. European leftists seriously need to look at the US and the cultural dynamics that have resulted in it having the deadest unions and least social welfare in the western world. Immigration and multiculturalism are incredibly corrosive to economic leftism. Beside its immense historical explanatory power, the decline in support for social goods that comes with a more diverse society is one of the most consistent trends in anthropology. Mans posted:The left hasn't abandoned such thing, the center-left did. To the point where only a complete and utter moron would vote for a center leftist party in most of Europe if they want to defend social democracy. I find this incredibly unconvincing. It's stunningly consistent that left parties full of nice rhetoric suddenly all turn into the same thing once they get a bit of power. The left's tendency to sell out and betray the workers has escalated to an outright pathology. How many times does it have to happen before you realize something is fundamentally wrong? SickZip fucked around with this message at 03:16 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 03:09
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SickZip posted:Yeah, exactly. European leftists seriously need to look at the US and the cultural dynamics that have resulted in it having the deadest unions and least social welfare in the western world. Immigration and multiculturalism are incredibly corrosive to economic leftism. Beside its immense historical explanatory power, the decline in support for social goods that comes with a more diverse society is one of the most consistent trends in anthropology. I would like to stress that multiculturalism per se is not the issue, as long as all the cultures involved are perceived as being legitimate parts of the state (See Singapore or Switzerland), and that it is the introduction of new cultures into the existing mix that breeds resentment (Again, see Singapore or Switzerland)
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May 28, 2014 03:16
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thekeeshman posted:I would like to stress that multiculturalism per se is not the issue, as long as all the cultures involved are perceived as being legitimate parts of the state (See Singapore or Switzerland), and that it is the introduction of new cultures into the existing mix that breeds resentment (Again, see Singapore or Switzerland) Who is doing the resenting?
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May 28, 2014 03:22
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SedanChair posted:Who is doing the resenting? The existing populations? Generally the lower classes too, as I said before the richer parts of society benefit most from both cheap labor and reductions in the welfare state and taxation.
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May 28, 2014 03:24
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Doctor Malaver posted:I think there's a grain of truth in that the word "racist" is applied too broadly, although it's trolling or huge exaggeration to say that causes the return of fascism. As an Eastern European I first tried to understand what's considered racism on SA, and to change some thought patterns if they are truly wrong and racist, but after some time I was overwhelmed and I resigned. Racism is apparently ever-permeating like sin in Catholicism - try as hard as you can but you'll always be a sinner. So I kind of accepted that I'm a racist and I'll always be one, and all my family and all my friends too (regardless of the fact that most of them vote left and are anti-nationalist)... You can accept that you're a racist and that you'll always be one while at the same time doing the best you can to combat racism at a personal and institutional level A big problem with people's understanding of racism is the widespread liberal narrative of "good people vs racists" where non-racism is enshrined as this virtue that you either have or you are a bad person, and this means of course that nobody believes about themselves that they are racist. Pointing out someone's racism becomes this personal attack against their integrity because they understand it as being accused of being an evil person with bad intentions. It produces weird behaviours like white people doing things solely with the purpose of self-congratulating themselves about how non-racist they are and to prove it to everyone else. The truth is that in a racist culture it is impossible to escape being racist. Studies have shown that literally everyone has learned racism on a subconscious level to some extent, and even victims of racism internalize racism against their own group. If racism is to be fought at a societal level it's important for people to realize this stuff and to stop taking it so personally.
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May 28, 2014 03:33
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Bob le Moche posted:
Telling people they have a property that is fundamentally bad typically is not successful unless you're a preacher.
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May 28, 2014 03:41
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rudatron posted:Neoliberalism is the hegemonic ideology of our times and it obtained that hegemony through force. The left didn't commit suicide, it was killed. Neoliberals support open immigration. Open immigration is leftist policy. Nationalists treat nations as independent and sovereign, having unique characters and identities and languages that are worth preserving, instead of as arbitrary economic territories with some regrettable quirks here and there.
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May 28, 2014 03:41
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Neoliberalism does not benefit from open-borders and is in fact opposed to it, and this is reflected in the policies of all neoliberal parties. Foreigners who come to a country with good social policies and progressive reforms will demand a higher minimum wage and better work conditions than if they stayed in their home country. This is why since the beginning of globalization we have seen capital export all industrial jobs to third-world countries where conditions are poo poo. This is also why we see things being pushed like temporary foreign workers programs, where regular immigration is sidestepped in order to import slave labor with none of the rights that come with citizenship.
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May 28, 2014 03:44
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Bob le Moche posted:Neoliberalism does not benefit from open-borders and is in fact opposed to it, and this is reflected in the policies of all neoliberal parties. Foreigners who come to a country with good social policies and progressive reforms will demand a higher minimum wage and better work conditions than if they stayed in their home country. This is why since the beginning of globalization we have seen capital export all industrial jobs to third-world countries where conditions are poo poo. This is also why we see things being pushed like temporary foreign workers programs, where regular immigration is sidestepped in order to import slave labor with none of the rights that come with citizenship. Though in the US you quite frequently have all migration that's not from adjacent countries (read: Mexico) as being strictly higher end immigrants, not your basic day laborers.
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May 28, 2014 03:51
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Kyrie eleison posted:Neoliberals support open immigration. Open immigration is leftist policy. Nationalists treat nations as independent and sovereign, having unique characters and identities and languages that are worth preserving, instead of as arbitrary economic territories with some regrettable quirks here and there. Also nationalists don't give a poo poo about 'preservation' or any of that clap-trap; it's about using minorities or those without power as an internal enemy, upon which to place blame for systemic failure and exploit for profit. Nations themselves are unscientific concepts that cannot exist in reality, so they cannot be preserved. rudatron fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 28, 2014 |
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May 28, 2014 03:58
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computer parts posted:Though in the US you quite frequently have all migration that's not from adjacent countries (read: Mexico) as being strictly higher end immigrants, not your basic day laborers. Democrats tend to oppose the immigration of desirable skilled workers (e.g. by limiting H1B visas, which are in high demand and resolved via lottery) citing local labor concerns while supporting the mass (illegal) immigration of unskilled workers on humanitarian grounds.
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May 28, 2014 03:59
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Bob le Moche posted:Neoliberalism does not benefit from open-borders and is in fact opposed to it, and this is reflected in the policies of all neoliberal parties. Foreigners who come to a country with good social policies and progressive reforms will demand a higher minimum wage and better work conditions than if they stayed in their home country. This is why since the beginning of globalization we have seen capital export all industrial jobs to third-world countries where conditions are poo poo. This is also why we see things being pushed like temporary foreign workers programs, where regular immigration is sidestepped in order to import slave labor with none of the rights that come with citizenship. Which Neoliberal parties oppose immigration? In the US both the Democrats and the business wing of the Republican party are in favor of immigration reform, and it seems like in much of Europe the traditionally neoliberal parties are only now moving against immigration because of the push from far-right parties. As you said, the ideal world for large corporations is one in which they can have their factories in their home country but using third-world labor. Outsourcing has wage reduction as its major benefit, but also comes with significant costs in terms of transport, difficulty of supervision, and lack of access to developed infrastructure and legal systems. First world workers are completely failing to demonstrate solidarity and unity right now, do you really think they'd be more successful with the addition of an easily-replaceable immigrant workforce? Even if immigrant workers demanded more than they would receive in their home countries they'd definitely settle for less than the prevailing first-world wage, or no one would hire them in the first place.
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May 28, 2014 03:59
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If immigration leads to the ruling class crafting a narrative of "foreigners are stealing welfare!" because they want to roll back social policies, the correct response is not to fall back to a closed-borders stance. The correct response is for the working class of the first world to realize that they are complicit in a system of pitting the workers of different nations in competition with each other for the sole benefit of capital, and against their own class interests. The solution is, and has always been, international solidarity. By closing borders and keeping all your social reforms for yourself (gently caress you got mine) you are sabotaging your class interests in the hope of becoming the labor aristocracy of an imperialist nation. Any "left" which is not internationalist is not on the left, it's a populist tool of imperialism.
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May 28, 2014 04:00
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Bob le Moche posted:Neoliberalism does not benefit from open-borders and is in fact opposed to it, and this is reflected in the policies of all neoliberal parties. Foreigners who come to a country with good social policies and progressive reforms will demand a higher minimum wage and better work conditions than if they stayed in their home country. This is why since the beginning of globalization we have seen capital export all industrial jobs to third-world countries where conditions are poo poo. This is also why we see things being pushed like temporary foreign workers programs, where regular immigration is sidestepped in order to import slave labor with none of the rights that come with citizenship. The movement of workers from 3rd to 1st world exerts zero upward pressure on wages anywhere since the jobs done in the 1st and 3rd world are different and there is no shortage of workers in the 3rd to replace those who moved. An immigrant to the 1st world is competing with native 1st world workers who had higher standards and wages. Through straight economic condition as well as erosion of the solidarity the working class had, the effect of these new workers is erosion of previous worker rights and wages. I have no idea where you get the idea that neoliberalism is against as open borders as they can get away with. It takes some serious denial to not recognize that its one of their core policies.
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May 28, 2014 04:00
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SickZip posted:The movement of workers from 3rd to 1st world exerts zero upward pressure on wages anywhere since the jobs done in the 1st and 3rd world are different and there is no shortage of workers in the 3rd to replace those who moved. An immigrant to the 1st world is competing with native 1st world workers who had higher standards and wages. Through straight economic condition as well as erosion of the solidarity the working class had, the effect of these new workers is erosion of previous worker rights and wages. Conversely, highly skilled workers from first-world countries in third-world countries making tons of money is also a core feature of neoliberalism. The far left does not want an international market in high-end labor because it means that poor countries don't get to have doctors or mature industries.
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May 28, 2014 04:08
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