|
Even if the left makes promises to turn back the clock (which would be completely to go against the the whole idea of progressivism), then that's a promise that cannot be lived up to. Even the fascists of today will find it impossible to fulfil the kind of promises they are making. Interdependence has gone to such a point that Autarky is no longer an option. Rather than indulge people in the fantasies that will kill them, the left must get people to accept the reality of their situation, and move on from there.
rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:05 on May 28, 2014 |
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 20:47 |
|
|
rudatron posted:Even if the left makes promises to turn back the clock (which would be completely to go against the the whole idea of progressivism), then that's a promise that cannot be lived up to. Even the fascists of today will find it impossible to fulfil the kind of promises they are making. Interdependence has gone to such a point that Autarky is no longer an option. You don't need cheesy and false appeals to patriotism, but a genuine appeal with understanding that this stuff is important to people. It seems silly, but take professional wrestling entertainment. And this is watched by millions of blue-collar and middle-class people of all ethnicities -- it also cuts across geographic lines in Europe and the United States. And this is a great example of what I'm talking about. One year they introduced a pair of villains whose gimmick was being from the Tea Party / far right. And they have a Mexican-American hero show up to challenge them, and the crowd cheers it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdteQvBTUHc&t=205s Again, it seems silly. But this is the kind of stuff the left needs to be comfortable with. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:30 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:10
|
|
|
I rewrote the last sentence before you made your reply (check the edit time) because, yes, it blamed ordinary people when it shouldn't. They are ultimately not at fault. And you are correct, a movement is populist or it dies. But lying is not the key to populism. Cynically exploiting something that you know to be fake isn't being 'savvy', it's elitism: you're not treating ordinary people as equals, but as things to be manipulated. Instead, you must speak to them as people, with their own desires and as a group with a common interest. Rather than ape values that lead to this mess, it is necessary to not just create new values, but change the way we think about values and their place in society. And this has to be done in a no-nonsense consistent way. Taking your previous example, you have to free the white-middle-class from the perspective of cultural conflict against the cosmoplitian-upper-class in order to fully realize the perspective of the class conflict. Without doing that, you cannot achieve acceptance by the world or the majority of society. Not in this day and age. rudatron fucked around with this message at 10:26 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:21
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:You can accept that you're a racist and that you'll always be one while at the same time doing the best you can to combat racism at a personal and institutional level That makes sense although I don't see why liberalism has to be in the mix. Do we have to look at all cultural and societal trends through the lens of economic agenda? rudatron posted:Wrong, Capitalism is not the antithesis of the left. There are progressive elements within capitalism, as even Marx himself admitted, but it is undermined by its internal contradictions (see: the first few chapters of the Manifesto). The answer is not to react, to return once again to parochial relations among the people of the world, but to revolt, to move forward through it. There is no going back, you can't undo what we know now: that people are less diverse than a sheep or a single species of bird, that cultural superiority is and always has been a lie and that states and people tend to act in their own interest. They are here to stay. The reassertion of nationalism is the reassertion of lies over truth, it is the refusal to accept the world as it is and to move on from there. That's not a populist sentiment, it's senseless reaction without thought or control. Ultimately, the nationalist will fail in their goals, they will be swept away. The issue is that the chance for something better is gone. Your insisting that people should abandon the concept of nation because it's been proven as unscientific is naive. I care more about myself than about my friend. I care more about my friend than about a person who lives on the same block. I care more about the person from the same block than about a person who lives on the other side of the globe, and looks and speaks totally different. This kind of "selfishness" has been with the human species since forever and is probably inherent. No amount of comparing DNA strands in labs will change that.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:24
|
|
|
rudatron posted:I rewrote the last sentence before you made your reply (check the edit time) because, yes, it blamed ordinary people when it shouldn't. They are ultimately not at fault. And you are correct, a movement is populist or it dies. But lying is not the key to populism. Cynically exploiting something that you know to be fake isn't being 'savvy', it's elitism: you're not treating ordinary people as equals, but as things to be manipulated. Instead, you must speak to them as people, with their own desires and as a group with a common interest. Rather than ape values that lead to this mess, it is necessary to not just create new values, but change the way we think about values and their place in society. And this has to be done in a no-nonsense consistent way. I mean, take that wrestling video. The guy drives the fascists off the stage by telling them they're not "real Americans" -- and he does this while standing in front of a giant Mexican flag! That's really an amazing testament to the power of patriotism, and to its most positive features, including the increasingly hybrid forms of it. And this message, in that format, is aimed like a laser at places like the Deep South. Now imagine the words "not a reflection of American values" or "pas un exemple de valeurs françaises" in a radical left newspaper -- you just don't see it. BrutalistMcDonalds fucked around with this message at 10:49 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:33
|
|
|
rudatron posted:Wrong, Capitalism is not the antithesis of the left. There are progressive elements within capitalism, as even Marx himself admitted, but it is undermined by its internal contradictions (see: the first few chapters of the Manifesto). The answer is not to react, to return once again to parochial relations among the people of the world, but to revolt, to move forward through it. There is no going back, you can't undo what we know now: that people are less diverse than a sheep or a single species of bird, that cultural superiority is and always has been a lie and that states and people tend to act in their own interest. They are here to stay. The reassertion of nationalism is the reassertion of lies over truth, it is the refusal to accept the world as it is and to move on from there. That's not a populist sentiment, it's senseless reaction with thought or control. Ultimately, the nationalist will fail in their goals, they will be swept away. The issue is that the chance for something better is gone. Marx said capitalism was a progress over feudalism, in which the middle class/merchant class overtook the nobility to become the ruling class. But he said the task now was to overthrow capitalism and create socialism (and finally communism). Birds may be very diverse, but it is well known that 'birds of a feather flock together.' Whatever integration occurs, it is an organic process. I'm not encouraging "cultural superiority" except in the playful sense we might enjoy between sports teams. I'm rather encouraging "cultural diversity." By having a diversity of cultures, rather than one single monolithic culture, you encourage criticism and analysis amongst them, while allowing each to maintain its own identity. Historically, cultures have always studied others and adopted traits they found suited them. A global monoculture -- which is really what 'multiculturalism' is -- if it is corrupted, risks taking the entire human species down with it, with no checks or balances. To say nothing of a monolithic state! As for it not being populist sentiment, cultural unity is arguably the clearest example of 'populism' one could come up with. The left is keen to say American football is a lesser sport than the superior international sport of soccer, and yet to the American people, it remains popular.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:53
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:As for it not being populist sentiment, cultural unity is arguably the clearest example of 'populism' one could come up with. The left is keen to say American football is a lesser sport than the superior international sport of soccer, and yet to the American people, it remains popular. When has the superiority of soccer ever been something touted by the left?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 10:59
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:As for it not being populist sentiment, cultural unity is arguably the clearest example of 'populism' one could come up with. The left is keen to say American football is a lesser sport than the superior international sport of soccer, and yet to the American people, it remains popular. That's a case of people making a jab at obnoxiously smug Americans, certainly not something exclusive to the left.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 11:04
|
|
|
Mischalaniouse posted:When has the superiority of soccer ever been something touted by the left? It was a silly point, trying to end it on something of a joke. Disregard it, the point is, different cultures have different things their population traditionally values and enjoys, and that's a good thing and should be preserved, and even celebrated, so long as it's not something harmful.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 11:08
|
|
|
Well, if multiculturalism is done badly it can end up dividing people. But multiculturalism done well is one of the strongest weapons against the far right. We make fun of progressives who go overboard on identity politics (SJWers) on this forum all the time, and they're symptomatic of a larger school of thought on the left that sees different cultures as kind of like special snowflakes that aren't to be messed with. Sure, you shouldn't needlessly offend people, or fetishize holy objects, etc.. But take it too far, and I think you'd end up encouraging a kind of ghetto-ized society of different groups that don't ever talk to each other. Then you also have problems with the indigenous population, as they begin to feel like they're strangers in their own country as the world becomes increasingly globalized. The immigrants appear quite alien to them and so forth. They feel like they're getting swamped. And here's Marine Le Pen who is the only person they think is speaking openly and honestly about it. (And the one group of white people you can't accuse of cultural appropriation are white nationalists, for instance.) So we really need to get a lot better at managing this. I don't know what we should do. But I think we need to be encouraging hybrid forms of nationalisms and identities as a means of taking the air out of the Le Pens of the world. And this is already going on. Indigenous Christians and post-Christians also have different kinds of overlapping cultural identities. But I don't think the 19th-century "workers of the world unite" class-war doctrine is really cut out for the job. You had disillusioned socialists saying that more than half a century ago. my dad posted:That's a case of people making a jab at obnoxiously smug Americans, certainly not something exclusive to the left.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 11:32
|
|
|
I gotta say that the arguments against nationalism are looking kind of weak itt. Something I was wondering about yesterday was how the left should deal with burdensome allies. It seems that we are reaching a point where gender identity hyphenated politics are no longer a fringe internet ideology but are making headway into the real world. Do these "sjw" people provide any benefit to the leftist movement?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 13:41
|
|
|
Miltank posted:I gotta say that the arguments against nationalism are looking kind of weak itt. Did they provide it when they were Gloria Steinem, and you were Hugh Hefner?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 13:52
|
|
|
Anyway about the previous discussion, labor mobility (not rights or citizenship) is a giant part of neoliberalism, if anything it is a fundamental pillar. If you want to create a reserve army of labor, one of the quickest ways to achieve it is to just import it. It doesn't make immigration "wrong" but can cause pretty clear social distortions in declining economies with lack of employment. Btw, yes, working class "natives" and immigrants often do compete for the same jobs in the first world. As far identity politics (CIS stuff is just one of many branches of identity politics), at this point the left has to bend to it is to some extent just because it is so much of contemporary globalized culture. However, there is a honest question of what is the point of progress in social/identity issues without any on economic issues. There are plenty of threads on this forum where it is commonly cited that "things are getting better" because gay marriage and legalized weed have taken off while ignoring that economically, everything continues to go to poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 13:52
|
|
|
I wonder that if the left adopted earnest patriotism within the confines of some universalism and dropped identity politics overnight would the right wing would even know how to respond? It seems like it would take the wind right out of their collective sails and make a lot of carefully crafted rhetoric from the right fall apart.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:05
|
|
|
The left ultimately gets nothing from identitarians, it's probably time to part ways and let them go on their own.Doctor Malaver posted:Your insisting that people should abandon the concept of nation because it's been proven as unscientific is naive. I care more about myself than about my friend. I care more about my friend than about a person who lives on the same block. I care more about the person from the same block than about a person who lives on the other side of the globe, and looks and speaks totally different. This kind of "selfishness" has been with the human species since forever and is probably inherent. No amount of comparing DNA strands in labs will change that. edit: This is kind of what american nationalism is slowly becoming, in a way that japanese or french nationalism is most definitely not. But it's not quite the same thing, and it itself is still definitely a Nationalism as opposed to anything else. rudatron fucked around with this message at 14:26 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:09
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:I wonder that if the left adopted earnest patriotism within the confines of some universalism and dropped identity politics overnight would the right wing would even know how to respond? It seems like it would take the wind right out of their collective sails and make a lot of carefully crafted rhetoric from the right fall apart. I think we would need to find a new "earnest patriotism" because the ones leftists adopt in approaching the system seem indistinguishable from neoliberalism and security-state militarism. The only kind of patriotism that is acceptable is free from jingoistic manipulation or cultural chauvinism, which are really the only things that give nationalism power.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:12
|
|
|
Doctor Malaver posted:That makes sense although I don't see why liberalism has to be in the mix. Do we have to look at all cultural and societal trends through the lens of economic agenda? I would say yes but that's because I am a historical materialist  This moral understanding of racism is tied to liberal notions of individual agency and responsibility. Kyrie eleison posted:The left's strategy of trying to undermine national identity has been a disaster. It is nothing but an extreme reaction to imperialist jingoism. There is nothing scientific about it. Your lack of patriotism, your lack of respect for people's loyalty to their people and country has been your downfall. It is a total victory for capitalism, and for the right wing groups which are the only ones willing to take advantage of patriotic sentiment, the only ones willing to claim popular sovereignty and do something about the neoliberal order everyone dislikes. A global monoculture is, as you recognized yourself, something that is created by neoliberalism through cultural imperialism. The left advocates nothing of the sort and in fact has been behind most national liberation movements in history. Following the Russian revolution the empire was broken down into a multitude of autonomous republics each with their own official language and laws. The kind of nationalism you support is one that seeks to deny cultural diversity within a territory for the sake of creating a national identity. How does Lepen appeal to Breton or Corsican identity? How does UKIP appeal to Scottish identity? They do not, and if you believe in the nation they are selling you, you believe in a fairy tale imposed from the top down.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:17
|
|
|
SedanChair posted:I think we would need to find a new "earnest patriotism" because the ones leftists adopt in approaching the system seem indistinguishable from neoliberalism and security-state militarism. The only kind of patriotism that is acceptable is free from jingoistic manipulation or cultural chauvinism, which are really the only things that give nationalism power. Yeah that is a fair point. My problem is that while rudatron is likely correct in the long term acknowledging the necessity of a new universality really doesn't get us to said new universality. We can't magically dissolve parochial interests overnight, and especially considering the horrible state of the left, so you have to find a way to unite the tribes.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:19
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:I wonder that if the left adopted earnest patriotism within the confines of some universalism and dropped identity politics overnight would the right wing would even know how to respond? It seems like it would take the wind right out of their collective sails and make a lot of carefully crafted rhetoric from the right fall apart. If the left did this it would stop being the left. So much social chauvinism in this thread. We have learned nothing from history 
Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 14:23 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:20
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:If the left did this it would stop being the left. Ok, read militant enthusiasm for a new order instead of patriotism. I fail to see how identity politics are in any way integral to the left.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:24
|
|
|
rudatron posted:The left ultimately gets nothing from identitarians, it's probably time to part ways and let them go on their own. Who are "identitarians?" Not feminists I hope. So-called Leftists have on occasion disavowed the concerns of Blacks, women and Jews in an attempt to form a more robust political organization. I don't think it's worked out terribly well for anyone. AstheWorldWorlds posted:I fail to see how identity politics are in any way integral to the left. Curious... e: I presume "leftists" in this thread calling for abandoning identity politics are quite young, yes? People whose political landscape is characterized by Blairism and the fallout of the credit crisis. New generations of leftists think that indulging racism, the patriarchy, and anti-semitism is a savvy political shortcut- that if we throw the proletariat a bone they will become focused on class issues. No no no. We've done it all before. Dilkington fucked around with this message at 14:49 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:32
|
|
|
I don't think whether something is "of the left" or not is the most important thing here. That's a hidebound and conservative kind of thinking.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:38
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:A global monoculture is, as you recognized yourself, something that is created by neoliberalism through cultural imperialism. The left advocates nothing of the sort and in fact has been behind most national liberation movements in history. Following the Russian revolution the empire was broken down into a multitude of autonomous republics each with their own official language and laws. The kind of nationalism you support is one that seeks to deny cultural diversity within a territory for the sake of creating a national identity. How does Lepen appeal to Breton or Corsican identity? How does UKIP appeal to Scottish identity? They do not, and if you believe in the nation they are selling you, you believe in a fairy tale imposed from the top down. SOME of the left advocates for national dissolution (rudatron, for instance). I think to some extent cities will always be international/multicultural, even under nationalist governments. The goal is not to destroy a country's ability to locally interact with foreign cultures, but rather to preserve and represent the country's dominant culture. Cities are meeting places of a sort. It remains to be seen just what UKIP has planned for Scotland. The Scottish did elect a UKIP MEP, though. Clearly there's some common interest.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:41
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:The left, which is the dominant and active policy of the time, thinks that nations are obligated to immigrate anyone no matter how destructive it is in terms of crime, welfare obligation, or cultural disruption. The "far-right" "fascists" think countries should only immigrate those that are somehow beneficial to the country. Something something mobility of labor something something.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:47
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:Ok, read militant enthusiasm for a new order instead of patriotism. I fail to see how identity politics are in any way integral to the left. Splitting the working class along identity lines is a divide-and-conquer strategy of the ruling class. The left has always recognized and fought this, and class solidarity across such divisions is the only way forward. Identity politics without a proper class analysis is a dead end, yes, which is why you see a lot of valid criticism of identity politics as it currently stands on the left. The answer is not to reject those issues, though, it's to recognize that what they all have in common is being subject to a greater system of institutional oppression that can only be defeated by addressing root economic causes. Women's issues, minority issues, etc, are a fundamental part of the class struggle and work towards liberation for any one of them always strengthens the entire movement, while defeat on that front serves only to empower reaction. Good luck with becoming even more irrelevant than you already are by giving up those issues in an attempt to capture the far-right vote, while neoliberal parties become the only ones around that pretend to care. Bob le Moche fucked around with this message at 14:52 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:48
|
|
|
Dilkington posted:Who are "identitarians?" Not feminists I hope. So-called Leftists have on occasion disavowed the concerns of Blacks, women and Jews in an attempt to form a more robust political organization. I don't think it's worked out terribly well for anyone.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:53
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Splitting the working class along identity lines is a divide-and-conquer strategy of the ruling class. The left has always recognized and fought this, and class solidarity across such divisions is the only way forward. Identity politics without a proper class analysis is a dead end, yes, which is why you see a lot of valid criticism of identity politics as it currently stands on the left. The answer is not to reject those issues, though, it's to recognize that what they all have in common is being subject to a greater system of institutional oppression that can only be defeated by addressing root economic causes. Women's issues, minority issues, etc, are a fundamental part of the class struggle and work towards liberation for any one of them always strengthens the entire movement, while defeat on that front serves to empower the reaction. My concern is the modern left (in the broadest sense) very much is abandoning the root economic cause in favor of more parochial identity interests and it is getting us nowhere. It is to the point where the most zealous advocates of identity politics are hostile to trying to build some universal consensus along economic lines, in a sense actively rejecting class conflict. The current trajectory is clearly not working out so well so what would you advise as an alternative course of action? Dilkington posted:Curious... I reject all three of these, though? AstheWorldWorlds fucked around with this message at 14:58 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 14:55
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:Ok, read militant enthusiasm for a new order instead of patriotism. I fail to see how identity politics are in any way integral to the left. White men not seeing the benefit of programs that don't benefit them is a long running tradition.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:08
|
|
|
computer parts posted:White men not seeing the benefit of programs that don't benefit them is a long running tradition. I don't quite understand your point. Could you elaborate?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:10
|
|
|
Dilkington posted:New generations of leftists think that indulging racism, the patriarchy, and anti-semitism is a savvy political shortcut- that if we throw the proletariat a bone they will become focused on class issues. No no no. We've done it all before. This current crisis is hugely depressing to me, as I'm seeing evidence over and over again that nothing has been learned from history, and that we're doomed to repeat the worst parts of it again by committing the exact same mistakes. I want to see a way out but at this point I've almost resigned myself to the fact that we're headed for terrible disaster. AstheWorldWorlds posted:My concern is the modern left (in the broadest sense) very much is abandoning the root economic cause in favor of more parochial identity interests and it is getting us nowhere. It is to the point where the most zealous advocates of identity politics are hostile to trying to build some universal consensus along economic lines, in a sense actively rejecting class conflict. The current trajectory is clearly not working out so well so what would you advise as an alternative course of action? I agree that there is such a problem, and what we're seeing everywhere is neoliberal parties co-opting surface-level wedge issues that throw a bone to the left such as gay marriage in order to be able to pass austerity policies and roll back on other achievements. Most people who vote for these parties are pretty unsatisfied and do it out only of a perceived strategic concern to prevent the other neoliberal party, the one that hates minorities, from winning. I regularly agitate among feminist, LGBTQ, and anti-racist circles to encourage them to take an intersectional class-conscious perspective. I've in fact had a lot of success with this, as for obvious reasons these groups happen to be much more receptive to radical critiques of capitalism than your typical white hetero male. Seriously, the people who care about social justice and identity issues are the natural constituency of any anticapitalist movement. I'm pretty happy with the results I see from this course of action so I would advocate taking it, and I see a lot of these movements currently maturing their understanding of class and their economic critique of capitalism.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:11
|
|
|
Kyrie eleison posted:SOME of the left advocates for national dissolution (rudatron, for instance). Yeah the UKIP is one of those parties that socialists should never work with, they are a bunch of libertarians who have no understanding of actual economics, if they are elected and they leave the EU, see the UKs economy collapse and Scotland and Wales leave. Albeit I would get some smug satisfaction and seeing the cult of Thatcher destroy the UK.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:13
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:I wonder that if the left adopted earnest patriotism within the confines of some universalism and dropped identity politics overnight would the right wing would even know how to respond? It seems like it would take the wind right out of their collective sails and make a lot of carefully crafted rhetoric from the right fall apart. The Portuguese Communist Party proclaims without a single doubt that fighting against neoliberalism and austerity will only be made by a Leftist and patriotic government. Patriotism should never be forgotten, not as the cornerstone of socialism, but as a vital tool for the creation of socialism. Socialism might be an international movement, but it has to start somewhere, and to take over a national state it matters little to masturbate over solidarity of the Cambodian worker struggle. Curiously, the strongest leftist forces in Europe, from CDU to Siriza and Communist Party of Bohemia and Moravia, as well as the growing small leftist parties in Spain, never forget the role of patriotism and solidifying a national position before jerking off about vague, empty nationalism. It isn't a coincidence that some of the few truly strong leftist parties are those who didn't dissolve themselves over arguments over third worldism, identity politics or dogmatic believe in European Union centralism. rudatron posted:It was in response to the question posed by Miltank on burdensome allies (sjw). I'm not talking about being willing to exploit minorities or whatever because that defeats the purpose of the left. But the behavior by the proto-typical sjw is ultimately a burden that has to be separated. The manpower they provide is outweighed by the people they pointlessly alienate. AstheWorldWorlds posted:My concern is the modern left (in the broadest sense) very much is abandoning the root economic cause in favor of more parochial identity interests and it is getting us nowhere. It is to the point where the most zealous advocates of identity politics are hostile to trying to build some universal consensus along economic lines, in a sense actively rejecting class conflict. The current trajectory is clearly not working out so well so what would you advise as an alternative course of action? You're over exagerating the weight of a few histeric idiots on the internet. There's plenty of room for identity politics inside of a worker's party and the above mentioned parties incorporate those issues on their platforms with no problems ("neither you nor the state should really care about personal issues, let them live their lives in peace").
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:14
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:I don't quite understand your point. Could you elaborate? There are fundamental divisions in society that exist independent of class (for example, when looking at the lower class a black man is poorer than a white man, a white woman is poorer than a white man, etc). Focusing on class is something that will benefit a large part of society, but it will still leave fundamental differences. The reason I say it's a long standing tradition is that basically every libertarian screed is "why can't people just act more like how I do?" which is white and male. Basically minority groups are offended that you see their issues as essentially distractions and they're not convinced you'll actually help them after they help you (which is a common pattern in this country).
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:18
|
|
|
rudatron posted:The lie of nationalism filled a role, yet its time has passed. It will not be able to fulfil that role as globalization progresses, and in fact has become counterproductive in terms of human welfare. It has so totally been undermined by anthropology and scientific advancement that no one can seriously believe it as an actual part of reality. Is there any evidence that people are massively abandoning the idea of nation or are you just presenting your wishes as fact?
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:20
|
|
|
rudatron posted:It was in response to the question posed by Miltank on burdensome allies (sjw). I'm not talking about being willing to exploit minorities or whatever because that defeats the purpose of the left. But the behavior by the proto-typical sjw is ultimately a burden that has to be separated. The manpower they provide is outweighed by the people they pointlessly alienate. The only time I heard the term "sjw" or "social justice warrior" is from people who in earnest referred to "political correctness" as a serious problem. Who is the proto-typical sjw? Bell Hooks? Malcolm X? Dilkington posted:Curious... AstheWorldWorlds posted:I reject all three of these, though? You find them objectionable, of course. But should leftists parties deemphasize or disavow their opposition to those things if it might broaden their appeal? That's the possibility I believe some soi-disant leftists here are entertaining.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:24
|
|
|
Dilkington posted:The only time I heard the term "sjw" or "social justice warrior" is from people who in earnest referred to "political correctness" as a serious problem. Who is the proto-typical sjw? Bell Hooks? Malcolm X? I wouldn't say disavow, maybe though deemphasize, or not make them the main part of their goals. Compared to taking on international finance and fighting neoliberalism. Hell, actually fighting the neoliberals, would be a nice thing.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:28
|
|
|
In what world are you living where leftist parties are including racism, pathriarchy apologism and anti-semitism in their rethoric? Literally pin point actual leftist parties who do so.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:28
|
|
|
AstheWorldWorlds posted:My concern is the modern left (in the broadest sense) very much is abandoning the root economic cause in favor of more parochial identity interests and it is getting us nowhere. It is to the point where the most zealous advocates of identity politics are hostile to trying to build some universal consensus along economic lines, in a sense actively rejecting class conflict. The current trajectory is clearly not working out so well so what would you advise as an alternative course of action? If that's the problem then you solve it by focusing on class/economic issues, not by rejecting identity politics.
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:29
|
|
|
Nationalism is bigotry hiding behind a flag. We're all human god damned beings, and serving one country to the exclusion of people elsewhere only plays into the hands of the greedy, the power-hungry, and hate-mongers.
nematode antipode fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 28, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 23, 2024 20:47 |
|
|
nematode antipode posted:Nationalism is bigotry hiding behind a flag. We're all human god damned beings, and serving one country to the the exclusion of people elsewhere only plays into the hands of the greedy, the power-hungry, and hate-mongers. Yeah you're really going to convince the average worker with that. "Why are you going away? I mean I'm not directly calling you a bigot, I am just comparing you liking your country to a nazi, there is no reason to get so angry!"
|
|
#
?
May 28, 2014 15:32
|
|