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twistedmentat posted:I was pretty happy to see unbound just means you can ignore the force Org for your army. Better, I think? All of the non-Dread/Helbrute walkers I can think of were already good or improving but I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
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May 29, 2014 17:03
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Sulecrist posted:I'm almost positive that's exactly what it said. "Unbound armies are still limited by our NEW AND IMPROVED allies matrix," or something very similar. It definitely didn't explain the matrix at that time, but if the matrix didn't continue to have a profound impact on choices, people wouldn't have been so troubled by the changes to Imperial Guard's relationship with Chaos. That was more to do with IG and CSM in battle-forged armies not being battle bros any more. Unbound armies have absolutely nothing limiting their composition. You can take no HQs, 3 Heldrakes, 3 Hemlocks, 3 Tau flyers, 10 Stormtalons and a Manta in your Unbound army if you want. They have to follow the rules for deployment and how close they can get to each other, but that's all.
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May 29, 2014 17:03
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Monstrous Creatures (or anyone else with Smash) only get one double-strength attack now, so it's harder for them to destroy Walkers in melee. Combine that with the fact that vehicles are a bit harder to destroy and walkers got a very comfortable boost. As far as I can tell, there's also no more restriction on who can go up/down levels in ruins. Did I miss something, or can bikes (or worse, tanks) climb ruins?
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May 29, 2014 17:05
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twistedmentat posted:I was pretty happy to see unbound just means you can ignore the force Org for your army. The problem here is basically if you're just taking one or two psykers you'll never get a functional psychic phase against someone who builds for it. The only way to really do much during the psychic phase is to spam the poo poo out of psykers and get as many dice as humanly possible.
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May 29, 2014 17:06
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Panzeh posted:The problem here is basically if you're just taking one or two psykers you'll never get a functional psychic phase against someone who builds for it. The only way to really do much during the psychic phase is to spam the poo poo out of psykers and get as many dice as humanly possible. That's exactly how it is in fantasy. You take a pair of level 2 wizards in your Empire army, and then come up against a guy with a Slaan and 3 skink shamens making GBS threads casting dice everywhere. Though I don't think too many armies can really go nuts with psykers; tyranids and eldar seem the ones to watch out for. Also, Flying MCs just attack normally? None of that bullshit where they have a bunch of weird attack rules? The FMC section is nothing but movement rules.
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May 29, 2014 17:22
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That's not really true in Fantasy anymore anyway. 12 dice cap and now that all the old magic powerhouse books are updated (Lizards, DE, etc) there's very few ways to get many extra dice. One of our best WoC players has stopped using a L4 and goes with 2 L2's for example, and it's been really good.
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May 29, 2014 17:33
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I'm told there are still 200 limited edition rulebooks unsold, and they aren't doing well on ebay either
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May 29, 2014 18:16
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NTRabbit posted:I'm told there are still 200 limited edition rulebooks unsold, and they aren't doing well on ebay either Four Hundred Canadian Earth Dollars. Yeah. No thanks.
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May 29, 2014 19:08
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NTRabbit posted:I'm told there are still 200 limited edition rulebooks unsold, and they aren't doing well on ebay either On the other hand, they have sold 1800 of them in six days. So it's relative.
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May 29, 2014 19:16
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How about: You can take a mulligan on your hand of maelstrom cards, but your Warlord cannot take any voluntary actions that turn.
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May 29, 2014 19:28
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Fix posted:How about : You can take a mulligan on your hand of maelstrom cards, but your Warlord cannot take any voluntary actions that turn. "This represents your warlord arguing against his incompetent superiors. Note, choosing this option with an Imperial Guard warlord allows your opponent to immediately score the warlord VP as your warlord will be summarily executed once the battle is complete."
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May 29, 2014 19:51
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The Gate posted:That's not really true in Fantasy anymore anyway. 12 dice cap and now that all the old magic powerhouse books are updated (Lizards, DE, etc) there's very few ways to get many extra dice. One of our best WoC players has stopped using a L4 and goes with 2 L2's for example, and it's been really good. Yup, six-dicing a sixth spell can still turn a game but it's still way better than the seventh edition thirty dice vampire list. Fantasy is in such better shape than 40k right now it's ridiculous.
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May 29, 2014 20:00
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PeterWeller posted:"This represents your warlord arguing against his incompetent superiors. Note, choosing this option with an Imperial Guard warlord allows your opponent to immediately score the warlord VP as your warlord will be summarily executed once the battle is complete." While your explanation is cute, I don't need a fluffy reason poo poo happens, I need good rules that work. (I'm not trying to poo poo on you, more GW for it's busted rules that need to be explained away).
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May 29, 2014 20:05
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TKIY posted:Fantasy is in such better shape than 40k right now it's ridiculous. I played fantasy for a bit and used a Slann (in their old book)and even with the bullshit extra dice for casting a spell the magic phase was limited. You had to spend a lot of points and one perils or missing a spell could cost you big time. The 40k rules seem to have less restraint. Including unlimited dice. Like 6th, it has a lot of good ideas but still fucks up. That is more annoying for me.
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May 29, 2014 20:07
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So I need some 30k list help. I'm going to have a blob of 10 Terminators, and I'm wondering what to load them out with. I'm thinking Reaper autocannons and Volkites, but I'm not sold. What do people like? While we're on the topic, what happens if you master-craft a Volkite?
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May 29, 2014 20:19
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LordAba posted:Someone mentioned that you can only put fortifications in your deployment zone, is that true? That was, er, probably me, but yeah- the Deployment section notes that fortifications are deployed at the same time and in the same manner as all your other units, and Stronghold Assault does not, to the best of my knowledge, override this in any way. Fortifications have to be entirely within your deployment zone, which is SUPER awkward for stuff like the Aquilla and G.I. JOE PLAYSET. xtothez posted:Take a Bastion or Redoubt and place it in the middle of the table. Add an escape hatch behind it, on the edge of your deployment zone. Just to point out, you do not place the Escape Hatch until a model embarks onto the building, so no shenanigans in that respect. Kaza42 posted:As far as I can tell, there's also no more restriction on who can go up/down levels in ruins. Did I miss something, or can bikes (or worse, tanks) climb ruins? Sometimes you just gotta Escape From L.A. your way up some stairs like a badass. Tanks will generally not be able ot climb up ruins because you are still limited to only putting models where they can actually fit. Some folks are gonna desperately try and cram their Leman Russ into the upper level of a ruin by wedging it in there, but I think we can safely say that is a "No, sorry, it's not going to stay there and you know it" situation.
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May 29, 2014 20:23
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AbusePuppy posted:Tanks will generally not be able ot climb up ruins because you are still limited to only putting models where they can actually fit. Some folks are gonna desperately try and cram their Leman Russ into the upper level of a ruin by wedging it in there, but I think we can safely say that is a "No, sorry, it's not going to stay there and you know it" situation. If you take Creed, though, you can claim that the air conditioning roof vent is actually a Leman Russ, and the fact that the actual model won't balance there is irrelevant.
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May 29, 2014 20:25
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PeterWeller posted:"This represents your warlord arguing against his incompetent superiors. Note, choosing this option with an Imperial Guard warlord allows your opponent to immediately score the warlord VP as your warlord will be summarily executed once the battle is complete." For once I actually like your bullshit fluff reason for something  VVVV "Every Russ in my army is piloted by BATMAN TheChirurgeon fucked around with this message at 20:30 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 20:26
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AbusePuppy posted:Tanks will generally not be able ot climb up ruins because you are still limited to only putting models where they can actually fit. Some folks are gonna desperately try and cram their Leman Russ into the upper level of a ruin by wedging it in there, but I think we can safely say that is a "No, sorry, it's not going to stay there and you know it" situation. Hide magnets in the walls of your ruins and in your tanks, drive up the sides of walls 
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May 29, 2014 20:29
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Dagon posted:Hide magnets in the walls of your ruins and in your tanks, drive up the sides of walls I'll pay real* dollars to see this. *Canadian
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May 29, 2014 20:31
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Indolent Bastard posted:While your explanation is cute, I don't need a fluffy reason poo poo happens, I need good rules that work. (I'm not trying to poo poo on you, more GW for it's busted rules that need to be explained away). I get you, but I do think there should be a fluffy reason why stuff happens. As I have said, the mechanics codify and model the fluff. But that said, fluff shouldn't be an excuse for poor rules, and fluff should be compromised when it gets in the way of good and fun rules. A good example of the latter is how poor marines are in the rules compared to how they are portrayed in the fluff because if they were up to fluff snuff, they would simply roll over everything else. TheChirurgeon posted:For once I actually like your bullshit fluff reason for something The one time I'm not serious.
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May 29, 2014 20:32
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PeterWeller posted:A good example of the latter is how poor marines are in the rules compared to how they are portrayed in the fluff because if they were up to fluff snuff, they would simply roll over everything else.
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May 29, 2014 20:49
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Played my first proper game of 7th ed. Tactical objectives... Well. I ran a stern guard drop pod heavy battleforged list with kantor to make them objective secured at 1500 pts, he had a guard tank list with a forgeworld flyer and macharius vanquisher super heavy. I won 12 vp to 2. Dropped onto 5/6 objectives turn one, into cover. Then just nailed his tanks with tank hunter devastators, a thunderfire, and combi meltas. By removing his transports he was then hosed and scrambling for objectives which I had objective secured on. GG. Admittedly my stormtalon killed two russes and his flyer in a sick series of rolling over three turns but still. If you control the objectives YOU WIN. Which is just how 40k should be. He had much more firepower, I used precision strikes and tactics to just overwhelm him.
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May 29, 2014 20:52
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Dagon posted:Hide magnets in the walls of your ruins and in your tanks, drive up the sides of walls This is literally in the fluff for Taurox Primes. Seriously. They can magnetize the tracks and drive upside down if they need to.
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May 29, 2014 21:07
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What were those old scifi toys with all the magnets called? They also had a ton of poo poo that would fold up and pack away inside other poo poo.
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May 29, 2014 21:12
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PeterWeller posted:I get you, but I do think there should be a fluffy reason why stuff happens. As I have said, the mechanics codify and model the fluff. But that said, fluff shouldn't be an excuse for poor rules, and fluff should be compromised when it gets in the way of good and fun rules. A good example of the latter is how poor marines are in the rules compared to how they are portrayed in the fluff because if they were up to fluff snuff, they would simply roll over everything else. I actually did the math on this not too long ago and it might interest you to know that a "realistic" marine, arbitrarily defined here as one that can gun down ten Imperial Guardsmen blazing away at him from 12" away before dying at almost exactly the same time the last one drops, would be BS5, T5, W1, 2+ Save, 5+ FNP with a S5 AP5 Rapid Fire boltgun. There are other ways of getting the same result (adding Wounds, for example) but long story short a "realistic" marine probably looks more like a Centurion than a Primarch. Ten Guard seemed appropriate but all you'd have to do to make it 20 is add a second Wound. EDIT: Presumably he'd have WS, S, I, and Ld bumps to match, and presumably he'd also be true-scale! Sulecrist fucked around with this message at 21:27 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 21:25
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In the fluff, a score or two of Marines (and their transports) is enough to conquer an entire planet. I don't think ten Guardsmen is really a good match, because while Marines deploy by the dozen or by the hundred, Guardsmen deploy by the million or by the billion. Having a similar discussion the other day, our Tyranid player commented that "If that were the case, Tyranids should just be able to fill their entire deployment zone with models." He's not wrong.
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May 29, 2014 21:35
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PeterWeller posted:What were those old scifi toys with all the magnets called? They also had a ton of poo poo that would fold up and pack away inside other poo poo. Your mum. (Starcom.)
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May 29, 2014 21:39
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AbusePuppy posted:In the fluff, a score or two of Marines (and their transports) is enough to conquer an entire planet. I don't think ten Guardsmen is really a good match, because while Marines deploy by the dozen or by the hundred, Guardsmen deploy by the million or by the billion. Works well, mentally. Marine blazes away, pops an Ork - he just killed four dudes! Marine gets his poo poo kicked in - well, yeah, that one Ork that murdered him is actually four Orks stabbing him at once.
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May 29, 2014 21:44
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:Your mum. Holy poo poo. 
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May 29, 2014 21:44
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AbusePuppy posted:In the fluff, a score or two of Marines (and their transports) is enough to conquer an entire planet. I don't think ten Guardsmen is really a good match, because while Marines deploy by the dozen or by the hundred, Guardsmen deploy by the million or by the billion. Yeah but the whole planet isn't standing there with guns. The real force-multiplier value of a Marine is in the fact that they're incredibly self-sufficient, can stay awake indefinitely, can keep marching for days, and so forth. A lot of their value cannot possibly be reflected meaningfully on the battlefield no matter how much the system changes. "It should take more bullets to bust through power armor" is a much easier fix than "My one dude can skip breakfast whereas your army needs a supply chain that ultimately requires twelve Munitorum scribes and menials for every trooper." I'm sure that when Dorn said he'd prefer a hundred marines to ten thousand lesser troops (or whatever) he was thinking about logistics, not just battlefield tactics.
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May 29, 2014 21:46
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Yeah, being able to take on ten guard is pretty lowball for how crazy they are in the fluff. "Realistic" marines should be worth something like 100 guardsmen and also spit acid.  The Tyranid thing is another example where fluff is compromised to make a better game. "Realistic" gaunts would cost .25 points and have the old without number rule. E: thanks RJS. Also, to be clear, I am in no way saying that the rules should be more "realistic."
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May 29, 2014 21:47
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AbusePuppy posted:In the fluff, a score or two of Marines (and their transports) is enough to conquer an entire planet. I don't think ten Guardsmen is really a good match, because while Marines deploy by the dozen or by the hundred, Guardsmen deploy by the million or by the billion. Really? In the books I read it took hundreds to thousands to pacify the planets on the great crusade. The Primarks were cruising around with a bunch of marines and still got punched in the dick a fair bit.
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May 29, 2014 21:48
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Panzeh posted:Overwatch would be a lot more interesting if it were a bit more limited but could be affected in normal game terms(not by psyker powers). They borrow half of the defensive fire mechanic from Flames of War but then forget everything that makes the mechanic interesting.
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May 29, 2014 21:49
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There's plenty of fluff where a squad of Guard take out a Marine, though. Most of the good fluff, even the ORGY OF SLAUGHTER stuff, doesn't have a lone nameless rank-and-file marine charge across an open plain at ten platoons of dug-in infantry and live to tell about it. Even in that Iron Snakes stuff, the unblooded marine that single-handedly delivers the world from the Dark Eldar doesn't try to brawl everybody at once.
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May 29, 2014 21:51
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Cataphract posted:two pages in and that thread is already a clusterfuck This surprises no one. Post 9-11 User posted:I'm not wasting money on a rulebook ever again. I may buy the starter set if it has new rules, otherwise I'll just ... you know. I have binders and they just priced the book so high that printer ink is cheaper (quite the feat, if you ask me). Blah blah, take your  talk to yourself.twistedmentat posted:Though I don't think too many armies can really go nuts with psykers; tyranids and eldar seem the ones to watch out for. Eldar sort of. But it's actually demons by a mile.
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May 29, 2014 21:55
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Naramyth posted:Blah blah, take your It’s cool, nobody's judging you for spending $80 on a .txt changelist SUPER NEAT TOY posted:So I need some 30k list help. I'm going to have a blob of 10 Terminators, and I'm wondering what to load them out with. I'm thinking Reaper autocannons and Volkites, but I'm not sold. What do people like? What kind of terminators? The ones that are relentless should take reapers, since you can move and shoot. I’d probably keep them as cheap as possible and avoid Volkite’s or Plasma Blastguns. You do your business in assault, so spend those points on a way to get you into assault. As for master-crafting a Volkite, do master crafted weapons let you re-roll a wound? If the answer is yes, and you deflagulate a target, you have the option to re-roll that wound. It’s the same shooting phase though so I don’t think you can re-roll the first wound and then re-roll the deflagulation wound. It’s one or the other.
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May 29, 2014 22:07
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Sulecrist posted:I actually did the math on this not too long ago and it might interest you to know that a "realistic" marine, arbitrarily defined here as one that can gun down ten Imperial Guardsmen blazing away at him from 12" away before dying at almost exactly the same time the last one drops, would be BS5, T5, W1, 2+ Save, 5+ FNP with a S5 AP5 Rapid Fire boltgun. There are other ways of getting the same result (adding Wounds, for example) but long story short a "realistic" marine probably looks more like a Centurion than a Primarch. There was a Movie Marines list in White Dwarf forever ago where the entire army was like, one Tactical Squad.
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May 29, 2014 22:25
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ChrisAsmadi posted:There was a Movie Marines list in White Dwarf forever ago where the entire army was like, one Tactical Squad. Yeah I remember that issue! I don't remember specifics, though; I gave all of mine away years ago. I really like the idea of a Gears of War style game where one player has a handful of burly commandos and the other has hordes of dumb monsters. It's one of the reasons I like Kill Team so much--it's the scale I want, with the aesthetics and simplicity I adore.
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May 29, 2014 22:30
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Ah I've hardly played any of the current ed of fantasy, and even when I did I didn't face any of the magic heavy armies.
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May 29, 2014 22:39
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