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So with the new vehicle and scoring rules, a squad of Iron Hands assault terminators with a captain in a battle forged list looks like it might actually be a good choice. Hard to shift if they get onto an objective early and both can score.
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May 29, 2014 22:44
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ChrisAsmadi posted:There was a Movie Marines list in White Dwarf forever ago where the entire army was like, one Tactical Squad. Just occurred to me that you could put together a kinda-movie-marines list now using Unbound rules. Like you could have an army of nothing but Captains as Tactical Marines and Chapter Masters as Sergeants. Then you leave them all as independent characters and play MEGA KILL TEAM against your opponent.
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May 29, 2014 22:45
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Moola posted:Just occurred to me that you could put together a kinda-movie-marines list now using Unbound rules. Captains can't get Special or Heavy Weapon choices though, so you can't do it properly.
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May 29, 2014 22:46
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ChrisAsmadi posted:Captains can't get Special or Heavy Weapon choices though, so you can't do it properly. It's MEGA KILL TEAM. I think you could probably let that bit slide.
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May 29, 2014 22:49
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I'm looking to update the paint scheme on my Dire Avengers and thus selling off my old ones. Would anyone be interested in 20 Dire Avengers?
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May 29, 2014 22:52
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Raphus C posted:Really? In the books I read it took hundreds to thousands to pacify the planets on the great crusade. The Primarks were cruising around with a bunch of marines and still got punched in the dick a fair bit. The marine numbers thing is one of the silliest things in 40k. Disclaimer here, no numbers in 40k make any sense anyway, it's better to just ignore them altogether. Military manning, logistics, force generation etc are incredibly complex organisational tasks. Doing them on a planetary scale, let alone galactic, is just mind-boggling. So never assume anything in 40k ever stands up to scrutiny. Regardless: Marine numbers are stupid because 1000 men is a meaningless drop in the bucket. Like even in WW2, so a world of lower technology, industrial capacity etc than a significant 40k planet, there were 10s of thousands of tanks and warplanes, and millions of men involved in the war. A space marine chapter, deployed as a single massive unit, would basically wreck poo poo out of a series of battles and gradually lose men to random shots, weight of numbers etc, to the point where they were ineffective or just all dead. Someone pointed out the logistical 'advantages'. I disagree. Your SM can go without breakfast or frequent resupply (let's not even talk about ammo though, he would need to be pulling a bloody trailer to wreak the devastation marines are described causing in the fluff) but a small army of artificers and engineers are required to maintain his armour. The creation process takes years. Marines need to spend years in high-risk covert special ops before they get full status. Just getting one marine takes decades, 100s of promising recruits lost in attrition, and enormous medical expertise and training resources. Marines in the background are all super-experienced badasses, but how the hell have they survived that long? Realism wise, high-tech war is bloody dangerous. Not like ancient or medieval times where if hypothetically you were that physically superhuman, immune to disease etc you actually could go through a lot of battles slaying motherfuckers. Even a lucky, skilled and sensible marine will probably get killed in an artillery strike or whatnot before becoming that experienced. And in the books, gently caress, they usually take a few casualties if it's a complete success, and 90% casualties if it's one of those heroic last stand type victories that they usually are. That poo poo just isn't sustainable. To put it another way, a marine and a guardsman both get killed by massive explosions (which seem to be abundant in the 41st millenium) but only one of these costs as much as a loving infantry regiment. The way that it makes sense for marines to be used is as a sort of SF, as I have seen them described in the books once or twice, decapitating enemy political structures or military commands, doing behind enemy lines poo poo, mission critical stuff. Or as a response to certain alien or daemonic threats that ordinary men are just incapable of facing. Using them as front line troops or the main force in an invasion is just idiotic. Don't even get me started on their appearances as pilots, tank crews, etc. I do like spergin' bout 40k.
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May 29, 2014 22:52
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ChrisAsmadi posted:Captains can't get Special or Heavy Weapon choices though, so you can't do it properly. Counter point, take all chapter masters, every model gets BS5 orbital bombardment. Who needs heavy weapons? e; Also pretend they are throwing really powerful grenades. Also they are REALLY good at throwing. Moola fucked around with this message at 22:57 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 22:53
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pretend they are so good at throwing they threw them from orbit days ago and are just arriving now
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May 29, 2014 23:01
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I like you. brb Converting my new space marine chapter, the Chaos Dunkers.
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May 29, 2014 23:04
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xtothez posted:Nids could do a pretty cheeky build under 6E with Stronghold Assault: Woah, I didn't think of using the escape hatch to slap some models inside. Though a part of me always debated sticking genestealers in for the charge versus lictors for larger area mawloc strikes.
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May 29, 2014 23:08
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Played my first game of 7th, 1850 Tyranids vs. a friend's Eldar. Game mode was Contact Lost and I'm glad about that, because the objective cards were the only thing that really gave me a chance. It ended in a draw 10-10. Then again, we messed up and tallied/drew objectives at the end/start of each game turn, instead of player turn. If we had done that right I probably would have lost horribly by Turn 3. It was a blood bath though. By the end, all I had left was a Flyrant with 1 wound remaining, 1 Carnifex, and a Harpy. All he had left was a Wraithknight, 1 War Walker, and 3 little jetbikes. I've never killed the Avatar or his 2 Wave Serpents before ever, so I was happy that I at least accomplished that. The only horribly unbalanced thing was really the Psychic Phase. With his 6 Warlocks and 1 Farseer, he easily denied pretty much anything I attempted to cast while I completely failed to deny anything he cast. Fortune can eat allll the dicks. We never saw much crazy poo poo happening from Perils, even though he Periled 4 times during the game. Ghosthelms pretty much negated Perils from ever being consequential. My Flyrant suffered 1 wound from Perils but regenerated it anyway. I was amused because he complained the entire time about how "he can't even hurt" my Flyrant while it was shooting the hell out of everything it looked at, even though he didn't even bother to try killing it. On the very last turn, when he finally bothered to shoot at it, he almost killed it. Pretty sure he went out and bought a Crimson Hunter today, haha.
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May 29, 2014 23:08
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Raphus C posted:Really? In the books I read it took hundreds to thousands to pacify the planets on the great crusade. The Primarks were cruising around with a bunch of marines and still got punched in the dick a fair bit. It turns out that 40K fluff is not at all consistent. twistedmentat posted:Though I don't think too many armies can really go nuts with psykers; tyranids and eldar seem the ones to watch out for. Tyranids, Grey Knights, Eldar, and Daemons can all easily generate 15+ dice, some of them a LOT more than that. Hell, just an allied contingent of Daemons is an easy 7-20 dice, depending on how many points you're willing to spend. I'm not sure what you mean by "attack normally" there- do you mean with shooting? They shoot exactly like any other MC does, whether swooping or gliding, except that they can choose to have Skyfire if they want. Sulecrist posted:Yeah I remember that issue! I don't remember specifics, though; I gave all of mine away years ago. They were basically WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W2 guys with three- or four-shot Rending boltguns, large blast frag grenades, and a bunch of other silly stuff. You could also buy "body doubles" that would take a hit for you (before rolling saves) and were removed automatically. The Razorback was especially hilarious because its Lascannon worked like the old rumors for Railgun weapons, where you basically drew a line down the table and anything along that line took a super-strong hit.
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May 29, 2014 23:10
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BULBASAUR posted:What kind of terminators? The ones that are relentless should take reapers, since you can move and shoot. I’d probably keep them as cheap as possible and avoid Volkite’s or Plasma Blastguns. You do your business in assault, so spend those points on a way to get you into assault. Cataphractiis, so Slow and Purposeful. It's basically choosing whether or not Twin-Linked is worth more than AP2 vs AP4 (and the Reaper autocannons looking really loving cool). The idea was to have a big blob of Volkites as an expensive gunline centerpoint; 8 Volkites can hit up to 32 times.
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May 29, 2014 23:15
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The trick to understanding Space Marines is that they aren't looking for a fair fight. They don't show up en masse on major battlefields to get ground down by attrition until there's no one left. That's what the Guard is for. The Marines are the ultimate special forces instead. They drop in on you from a drop pod, hit you with a tank force outta nowhere because they had their tanks airlifted in behind your lines. They fuckin' TELEPORT INTO YOUR HQ. What Space Marines do is figure out, thanks to better tech than Guard get access to and hundreds of years of experience, where exactly to hit you that will hurt the most. And then they do that, blow the poo poo out of your critical supply line, decapitate your best general, and steal your battle plans. And then they pack up and head back to orbit, analyze your wreckage, and do it again. And again. And again and again and again. Meanwhile, tens or hundreds of thousands of Guardsmen are pushing in on your lines, when you're out of ammo, leaderless, and they know where you hid your reserves because they've got your plans. What we're playing on the battlefield every time we play 40k with Marines in it is when something's gone wrong, because Marines don't want to be in a fight that's 1850 vs 1850. They want to have 1850 in Marines vs 500 in very surprised Orks. If you're fighting 1850 vs 1850 it means the situation is so desperate that an even odds fight is the best they can manage, or they're fighting someone as good. Like Chaos Marines with ten thousand years of experience, say. Or some Eldar muthafucka who looks into the future and gets there first. Or there are so many fuckin' Bugs that it took tactical brilliance to maneuver yourself an even odds chance to blow up that Hive Node. All you need to do is get past that Hive Tyrant and all his buggy friends... In short, every battle we players fight out is generally the critical point of a much larger action. It's where one side or the other will make a crucial breakthrough. Where some irreplaceable weak point in the Defense Laser network is just off the board. It's about access to the Necrons' main control node, or the entrance to the crashed Rok that if you can just get past these guys in your way you can rig the thing to explode and cripple the enemy force. And within that structure it makes sense that the Marines aren't invincible badasses. Because they're fighting against the other guy's best troops who are also trying to attack or defend their own critical objective point. tldr: Marines only make sense as elite special forces dropping in to wreck your poo poo, then vanishing again to hit you elsewhere. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 23:18 on May 29, 2014 |
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May 29, 2014 23:15
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ChrisAsmadi posted:Captains can't get Special or Heavy Weapon choices though, so you can't do it properly. Drop a counts-as Obliterator in there as your Heavy.
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May 29, 2014 23:15
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THE DARK WORLD OF NECROMUNDA - THE GAME LINKED TO THE MURDER http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2642604/War-games-fanatic-plunged-carving-knife-chest-neck-love-rival-spying-wife.html Jack Chick was right in Dark Dungeons!
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May 29, 2014 23:19
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Fix posted:Drop a counts-as Obliterator in there as your Heavy. Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer as a dude with a Plasma Cannon.
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May 29, 2014 23:28
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jng2058 posted:The trick to understanding Space Marines is that they aren't looking for a fair fight. They don't show up en masse on major battlefields to get ground down by attrition until there's no one left. That's what the Guard is for. The Marines are the ultimate special forces instead. They drop in on you from a drop pod, hit you with a tank force outta nowhere because they had their tanks airlifted in behind your lines. They fuckin' TELEPORT INTO YOUR HQ. This is spot on, and it's just a shame that most of the writers of the background just portray them as having no intelligence (in the military or everyday sense of the term) and charging in and mostly getting killed while taking out a bunch of chumps along the way. Obviously 40k is fantasy in space etc. But no SM missions, as published by GW, ever make sense. One of the best bits of 40k poo poo I ever read was a short story by Dan Abnett called (I think) The Fall of Malvolion. Tyranids invade a planet en masse, it all goes down in a day, this terrified fleeing guardsman sees some SM drop pod in, they kick arse, kill some monsters and a load of bugs etc. Then they all get slaughtered pretty quick, because they are a hundred guys trying a stand up fight against a planet-spanning army of nids. It is a good, well-written story and very good tyranid characterisation. But what was the marines' plan? Were they just going to drop onto the planet and kill every tyranid on the surface with their bolters? The fighting wasn't on a key objective or anything, just a point on the evacuation route.
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May 29, 2014 23:31
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Moola posted:Master of the Forge with a Conversion Beamer as a dude with a Conversion Beamer. Why you gotta change it up?
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May 29, 2014 23:32
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PeterWeller posted:A good example of the latter is how poor marines are in the rules compared to how they are portrayed in the fluff because if they were up to fluff snuff, they would simply roll over everything else. Wait a cotton pickin' minute. I, for one, want tanks that are to scale and Space Marines that are to scale in proportion with the other models; I want them to have rules that reflect these proportions. That being said, how are Marines poor at all? They are "average" over all, but their value is in applying those numbers where they count, where pound-for-pound they do roll over everything. Other than other Marines, then it's a  match unless the squad leaders become rage or someone has hot diceIn no other army of mine do I roll for a few dice from each transport and expect to kill at least a model or two or fire sidearms and expect to remove a half dozen models. With the usual exceptions if my line infantry in non-Marine fires at Space Marines I get a tiny thrill if even one of them dies.
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May 29, 2014 23:35
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It's also easy to think of marines surviving horrific injuries and returning to battle after recuperation where other units would simply be killed off entirely, just like how catching a unit in an assault doesn't have to mean every single person is slaughtered. You lost twenty marines in your last 1850 battle? A good number of them got up again later.
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May 29, 2014 23:37
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Fix posted:Why you gotta change it up? Yeah fair enough.
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May 29, 2014 23:39
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lovestick posted:THE DARK WORLD OF NECROMUNDA - THE GAME LINKED TO THE MURDER I'm actually surprised at the accuracy of the description for Necromunda at the end of that article.
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May 29, 2014 23:42
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Post 9-11 User posted:That being said, how are Marines poor at all? Only relative to their depiction in the fluff. Rulebook Heavily posted:It's also easy to think of marines surviving horrific injuries and returning to battle after recuperation where other units would simply be killed off entirely, just like how catching a unit in an assault doesn't have to mean every single person is slaughtered. You lost twenty marines in your last 1850 battle? A good number of them got up again later. Yeah, this is how I tend to think of it. The guys who lose their last wound didn't necessarily die. They were just rendered ineffective for the remainder of the engagement. It's like the Necromunda injury table, except 30 out of the 36 possible results are "back in action with a cool scar or bionic bit."
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May 29, 2014 23:45
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AndyElusive posted:I'm actually surprised at the accuracy of the description for Necromunda at the end of that article. NECROMUNDA had nothing to do with the story except that it was used as an alibi. The evil war game player killed someone because he was essentially jealous of his ex-wife's boyfriend. Then again, it's the Daily Mail.
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May 29, 2014 23:49
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Genghis Cohen posted:This is spot on, and it's just a shame that most of the writers of the background just portray them as having no intelligence (in the military or everyday sense of the term) and charging in and mostly getting killed while taking out a bunch of chumps along the way. Obviously 40k is fantasy in space etc. But no SM missions, as published by GW, ever make sense. Yeah, that story got published in one of the Tyrannid codexes, as I recall. Gotta make the Bugs look good in their own book. And yeah, in general the writers get the Marines wrong, though occasionally they get it right. Sandy Mitchell's Ciaphas Cain novel The Emperor's Finest shows how devastating marines can be as they systematically neuter a Genestealer infestation. Abnett's Iron Snakes book does a reasonable job as well, with Marines being dangerous and effective at their jobs, even when there's only one of them on site.
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May 30, 2014 00:04
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I can't wait to try out this list this weekend. It's going to suck and I'll probably get tabled turn 3, but it will be fun!quote:SPACE MARINES - Salamanders Chapter Tactics
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May 30, 2014 00:24
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:pretend they are so good at throwing they threw them from orbit days ago and are just arriving now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS4IksO9FGQ
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May 30, 2014 00:24
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SUPER NEAT TOY posted:Cataphractiis, so Slow and Purposeful. It's basically choosing whether or not Twin-Linked is worth more than AP2 vs AP4 (and the Reaper autocannons looking really loving cool). The idea was to have a big blob of Volkites as an expensive gunline centerpoint; 8 Volkites can hit up to 32 times. Volkites are murder against anything with a 5+ or worse. Seriously. So you need to ask yourself who you are playing against the most and what these 10 assholes are going to do. If they are marching up the board taking fire you should give them reapers (or play Iron Warriors and use their missile cataphractcs). If you wanna kill lots of marines, then I guess you can grab some plasma blastguns. Volkites own bones, but I'm not sure they are worth it on a unit that's going to charge in and kill all the 5+ anyway and has such a short rear end range it will only fire once. e: If you wanna use Volkites, use Culvrins. Myrmidon's armed with Culvrins delete something like 7.888 5+ assholes a turn. BULBASAUR fucked around with this message at 01:21 on May 30, 2014 |
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May 30, 2014 00:57
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Moola posted:I like you. 
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May 30, 2014 02:42
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Moola posted:I can't wait to try out this list this weekend. It's going to suck and I'll probably get tabled turn 3, but it will be fun! I feel like you are missing out if you don't somehow get them all on bikes and into one giant squad. I wonder how it would do against my goofy Necron Overlord army.
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May 30, 2014 02:49
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Do we know if there will be a new starter box or just a repackage of dark vengeance?
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May 30, 2014 03:13
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Ezekiel_980 posted:Do we know if there will be a new starter box or just a repackage of dark vengeance? New starter seems really unlikely from everything I know; the assumption was that they were going to put a 7E mini book in the DV box and leave all the minis, etc. the same but for now they seem to have gone with just posting a disclaimer that you'll need to spend $85 if you want to play the game with up-to-date rules 
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May 30, 2014 03:18
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So this is the army I'm making to play opposite my Death Guard. Legiones Astartes (Iron Warriors) HQ Legion Praetor + Cataphractii + Warsmith + Cortex Controller + Digital Lasers + Thunder Hammer Pride of the Legion 220 points Troops Legion Terminator Squad + 5 Terminators + 2 Reaper Autocannons + 8 Volkite Chargers 397 points Tyrant Siege Terminator Squad 295 points Tyrant Siege Terminator Squad 295 points Heavy Support Castellax + Castellax + 2 Multi-meltas (?) + power blades 190 points Lord of War Typhon + Lascannons 390 points I'm not sold on the Typhon here, but it is cheap for the slot, and brings a lot of damage to the table.
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May 30, 2014 03:20
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jng2058 posted:crashed Rok I posit that a Rok cannot crash - it can only land.
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May 30, 2014 03:23
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twistedmentat posted:Though I don't think too many armies can really go nuts with psykers; tyranids and eldar seem the ones to watch out for.  AbusePuppy posted:Just to point out, you do not place the Escape Hatch until a model embarks onto the building, so no shenanigans in that respect. PeterWeller posted:I get you, but I do think there should be a fluffy reason why stuff happens. As I have said, the mechanics codify and model the fluff. But that said, fluff shouldn't be an excuse for poor rules, and fluff should be compromised when it gets in the way of good and fun rules. A good example of the latter is how poor marines are in the rules compared to how they are portrayed in the fluff because if they were up to fluff snuff, they would simply roll over everything else.
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May 30, 2014 03:26
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Power blades on Castellax are a waste of points. MCs already do AP2 attacks by default and they FAQed the 'pair of shock chargers' to give you +1 attack. Also at 220 points for a preator I would consider grabbing one of the named dudes since they cost less and for better abilities.
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May 30, 2014 03:30
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There has never been a better time for GW to take the "all orks are psykers" bit of fluff to heart.
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May 30, 2014 03:36
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I don't see why they couln't, every mob of 10 or more boyz contributes a die to the pool.
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May 30, 2014 03:38
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BULBASAUR posted:Power blades on Castellax are a waste of points. MCs already do AP2 attacks by default and they FAQed the 'pair of shock chargers' to give you +1 attack. Also at 220 points for a preator I would consider grabbing one of the named dudes since they cost less and for better abilities. The power blades are honestly so I can only buy 2 models and not have to mix and match buying 4 Castellax; likewise 50 points of the Praetor is spent on Warsmith+Cortex. He's a big investment but the Castellax are a big part of the list so I think it's worth it.
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May 30, 2014 03:45
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