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RiotGearEpsilon: Jun 26, 2005; SHAVE ME FROM MY SHELF

Nessus posted:

Don't worry, my long experience at WoD games prepared me for the bitter taste of defeat!

I was able to make it work, kind of, for a while, by spending literally hours a day working on it, and as a result had serious difficulty with some of my college career. Once I had an actual day job, hoo boy, that poo poo did not work anymore.

# ? May 29, 2014 23:19

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# ? May 30, 2024 10:19

Cytokinesis: Aug 18, 2008; He sees the power of a god behind it. A power that has bested him!

So basically Holden is going to continue to ignore all the feedback about how a lot of people consider this a massive problem and cling to his delusional likely one person anecdote about "climbing the mountain", because apparently if you want to play anything besides an idiot savant then obviously the only reason is that you want the game to be harder for you.

Has anyone ever actually purposefully chosen a more realistic ability spread in order to "make it harder" on your character?

I know that the favorite character I've ever played was built on an XP character creation system simply because I could actually make her the way I thought she should be without being dozens of XP behind everyone else. Heck, a BP character progression system would achieve the same thing and be fine to me.

But nope, apparently despite all the various systems that purportedly encourage people to diversify their abilities, actually diversifying your abilities is a trap.

Cytokinesis fucked around with this message at 23:56 on May 29, 2014

# ? May 29, 2014 23:51

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Nessus posted:

Don't worry, my long experience at WoD games prepared me for the bitter taste of defeat!

What really drove me off was how it seemed like it was "Bitching About The White Wolf Forums, with the occasional brief session of RP, which half the time was apparently just a private Nobilis game because everyone hated what the game was actually about and complained about it incessantly." Really it is terribly frustrating - I am not going to claim Exalted is a ball-droppingly astonishing game system, or that it is the best thing ever as a game setting despite its great peaks of brilliance, but other than a couple of in-person campaigns and apparently that Abyssals game in the pbp forum, people just bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about it, instead of, like, playing it.

Hell, I remember from earlier threads here, it sounded like half the time people tried to play it and instead started recreating the rules. Surely SOMEONE out there actually plays this loving game occasionally! Maybe they're just too busy resolving Sidereal martial arts to post.

The problem my group ran into with this game (and we ran a couple of campaigns that met weekly for over a year each) was that after a while, the mechanics got so in the way of the game that it became more frustration than it was worth.

I have a deep and abiding love for the setting, but as you advanced in the game, the mechanical issues become more and more difficult to fix ( I should note that I only ever played 2E). It's very frustrating to have such an amazing setting with such poorly-functional, frequently vague mechanics. I empathize with the people who spent so much time bitching.

But we had some really incredible moments in our games (attending the Scarlett Empress' wedding was a particular highlight), and I certainly had some great times in those campaigns.

# ? May 30, 2014 00:29

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Thanatosian posted:

The problem my group ran into with this game (and we ran a couple of campaigns that met weekly for over a year each) was that after a while, the mechanics got so in the way of the game that it became more frustration than it was worth.

I have a deep and abiding love for the setting, but as you advanced in the game, the mechanical issues become more and more difficult to fix ( I should note that I only ever played 2E). It's very frustrating to have such an amazing setting with such poorly-functional, frequently vague mechanics. I empathize with the people who spent so much time bitching.

But we had some really incredible moments in our games (attending the Scarlett Empress' wedding was a particular highlight), and I certainly had some great times in those campaigns.

I completely understand that, but it was aggravating to come in slightly late to the party and experience little but a constant torrent of bitching, slightly boiled-down from whatever rotten tripe had bubbled out of the roadkill farm that was the official forums. Oh well, my couple of TT games were pretty cool.

# ? May 30, 2014 01:01

RPZip: Feb 6, 2009; WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

Hugoon Chavez posted:

What I don't get is why people take WoD games in general so seriously. I've met some weird d&d players (one of them was convinced he was an elf and forced his GF to have an abortion, because half-elves suck) but I know a LOT more dudes that go loving insane for WoD and think they're some kind of vampire otherkin or such.

Two things:

1) You're kind of undermining your premise with "White Wolf players are crazy, let me just mention this guy who thought he was an elf and made his GF get an abortion so she wouldn't have a half-elf but no really those Vampire players man."

2) How the hell did nobody else comment on this?

# ? May 30, 2014 01:52

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Half-elves are terrible, dude.

# ? May 30, 2014 01:53

Stallion Cabana: Feb 14, 2012; 1; Get into Grad School

2; Become better at playing Tabletop, both as a player and as a GM/ST/W/E

~~3; Get rid of this goddamn avatar.~~

Nessus posted:

Don't worry, my long experience at WoD games prepared me for the bitter taste of defeat!

What really drove me off was how it seemed like it was "Bitching About The White Wolf Forums, with the occasional brief session of RP, which half the time was apparently just a private Nobilis game because everyone hated what the game was actually about and complained about it incessantly." Really it is terribly frustrating - I am not going to claim Exalted is a ball-droppingly astonishing game system, or that it is the best thing ever as a game setting despite its great peaks of brilliance, but other than a couple of in-person campaigns and apparently that Abyssals game in the pbp forum, people just bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about it, instead of, like, playing it.

Hell, I remember from earlier threads here, it sounded like half the time people tried to play it and instead started recreating the rules. Surely SOMEONE out there actually plays this loving game occasionally! Maybe they're just too busy resolving Sidereal martial arts to post.

I run and play Exalted.

Mostly run.

My group as a whole plays a poo poo ton of Exalted though. I'm just not usually part of those games.

# ? May 30, 2014 01:56

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

RPZip posted:

Two things:

1) You're kind of undermining your premise with "White Wolf players are crazy, let me just mention this guy who thought he was an elf and made his GF get an abortion so she wouldn't have a half-elf but no really those Vampire players man."

2) How the hell did nobody else comment on this?

1) Well I think the point is to show someone who is blatantly batshit and then underline this by saying "And I've met WoD people who are even more/more consistently crazy than THAT"

2) Well anyone who puts up with somebody who literally thinks they're an elf is likely to be a grog, and therefore not play 4E where Half-Elves stop being total rear end. :ms:

# ? May 30, 2014 02:02

Kai Tave: Jul 2, 2012; Fallen Rib

Captain Oblivious posted:

1) Well I think the point is to show someone who is blatantly batshit and then underline this by saying "And I've met WoD people who are even more/more consistently crazy than THAT"

If that's his goal then he can't lead off with "I knew a guy who forced his girlfriend into getting an abortion because something something half-elves" and then leave what's supposedly the actual crazy business an undefined mystery, that's his cue to :justpost:

that poo poo. 'Cause unless he knew a deranged White Wolf fan who literally murdered and exsanguinated someone then half-elf abortionist is a hard act to top.

# ? May 30, 2014 02:08

Zereth: Jul 9, 2003

Captain Oblivious posted:

1) Well I think the point is to show someone who is blatantly batshit and then underline this by saying "And I've met WoD people who are even more/more consistently crazy than THAT"

This loses its punch if not followed up by an actual example of More Crazier, though.

# ? May 30, 2014 02:09

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

Kai Tave posted:

If that's his goal then he can't lead off with "I knew a guy who forced his girlfriend into getting an abortion because something something half-elves" and then leave what's supposedly the actual crazy business an undefined mystery, that's his cue to that poo poo. 'Cause unless he knew a deranged White Wolf fan who literally murdered and exsanguinated someone then half-elf abortionist is a hard act to top.

I'm not saying I don't want the follow up, I'm just saying I can see what he was TRYING to do.

Where's the loving follow up

Edit: But then again his post was originally about frequency of batshit not degree of batshit, in retrospect.

# ? May 30, 2014 02:11

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Zereth posted:

This loses its punch if not followed up by an actual example of More Crazier, though.

This is getting off topic, nobody's discussing eating the fetus.

# ? May 30, 2014 02:22

Vadoc: Dec 31, 2007; Guess who made waffles...

Nessus posted:

This is getting off topic, nobody's discussing eating the fetus.

Not yet.

# ? May 30, 2014 11:59

Hugoon Chavez: Nov 4, 2011; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Welp

RPZip posted:

Two things:

1) You're kind of undermining your premise with "White Wolf players are crazy, let me just mention this guy who thought he was an elf and made his GF get an abortion so she wouldn't have a half-elf but no really those Vampire players man."

2) How the hell did nobody else comment on this?

Sorry, I didn't explain myself very clearly. What I mean is that I've found more people kind of crazy for WoD than any other game, but that's not to say I haven't seen people totally insane about some other RPGs, like this elf dude

Captain Oblivious posted:

Edit: But then again his post was originally about frequency of batshit not degree of batshit, in retrospect.

This!

Captain Oblivious posted:

2) Well anyone who puts up with somebody who literally thinks they're an elf is likely to be a grog, and therefore not play 4E where Half-Elves stop being total rear end.

Back in Venezuela there weren't that many players, so you kinda took the good (ok, decent) with the bad (ok, batshit insane). This was in the days before even 3.5, I think, so yeah I still played third ed. 4ed is much better and gently caress the haters :colbert:

As for the story, there's little more to it (and I've already posted it in the catpiss thread). The guy was an acne-ridden fat 20-something that always played elves, GM'd about elves, and wanted people to call him lord Solar. He even tried to behave as one, being super stiff and "royal".

Then he knocked up his GF, and forced her to have an abortion (that's what she told me at least). The half-elf thing was a joke, since that's what I pictured his mental process to be like.

But hey, good news is, the guy died of a heartattack at 28ish. I thought elves lived 300+ years?

# ? May 30, 2014 12:41

Vadoc: Dec 31, 2007; Guess who made waffles...

Hugoon Chavez posted:

I thought elves lived 300+ years?

Maybe he was if counted kind of like Dog years.

# ? May 30, 2014 13:08

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO: May 8, 2006

Vadoc posted:

Maybe he was if counted kind of like Dog years.

half elf baby versus half elf dog

# ? May 30, 2014 14:41

Punting: Sep 9, 2007; I am very witty: nit-witty, dim-witty, and half-witty.

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

half elf baby versus half elf dog

WoD thread is the other way, that's the appropriate place for all BvD discussions.

# ? May 30, 2014 14:54

Cool Dad: Jun 15, 2007; It is always Friday night, motherfuckers

Right that would be Fae-blooded baby Vs fae-blooded-dog-beastman.

# ? May 30, 2014 20:01

mistaya: Oct 18, 2006; Cat of Wealth and Taste

Hey StephenLS, I want to talk about charm text and editing and what I don't want to see in 3E.

Let's look at a very basic archery charm from the Abyssals core book, Splinter of the Void:

quote:

SPLINTER OF THE VOID
Cost: 2m; Mins: Archery 2, Essence 2; Type: Supplemental
Keywords: Combo-OK, Mirror (Essence Arrow Attack; Exalted, p. 188), Obvious
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None

The deathknight imbues a ranged attack with the Essence
of Oblivion, making every arrow a talon of the Neverborn
and every firewand blast a shrieking exhalation of Primordial
doom. This Charm adds the Abyssal�s Essence to the raw
damage of an Archery-based attack. Learning the Charm also
gives the Abyssal one of the following effects. Additional
effects cost one experience point for each or one bonus point
for two. Abyssals may apply as many known effects to each
attack as desired, but each costs two motes to use.

Bloodthirsty Arrow: The necrotic Essence infusing the arrow
brings certain death. The archer adds two dice to post-soak
damage or reduces the target�s DV against the attack by one, as
he chooses. The character can stack these effects by spending additional
motes, but cannot increase damage or reduce the target�s
DV by an amount greater than his permanent Essence.

Dream-Shattering Spite: The attack unravels the illusions of
life and hope. It inflicts aggravated damage to creatures of the
Wyld. The attack inflicts normal damage to all other targets.

Hundred Paces Bite: Imbued with necrotic power, the attack
disrupts and devours Essence. If the attack hits a being with an
Essence pool (regardless of whether it inflicts any damage), the
victim loses a number of motes equal to the Abyssal�s Essence
rating. Beings with Personal Essence lose motes from this pool first.
Abyssals who know Ravening Mouth of Archery absorb the drained
motes. Otherwise, the energy simply fades into Oblivion.

Imposition of Agony: The Neverborn suffer without the
release of death. An attack blessed with this effect carries a
brief taste of this cold torture. If the attack hits an animate
target (regardless of whether it inflicts any damage), the victim
convulses and falls prone from psychic shock, unless her player
successfully rolls to resist knockdown (Exalted, p. 153). If
the Abyssal chooses, this effect can also remove all physical
damage from the attack, transforming the projectile into a
writhing corona of red and black lightning on impact.

Pretty simple right? Gives you a few magical arrow effects, all of which are handy, and can be stacked and swapped out at will. Let's take a look at the problem.

quote:

This Charm adds the Abyssal�s Essence to the raw
damage of an Archery-based attack. Learning the Charm also
gives the Abyssal one of the following effects. Additional
effects cost one experience point for each or one bonus point
for two. Abyssals may apply as many known effects to each
attack as desired, but each costs two motes to use.

So the first bolded line says you know one of the magic arrow types when you buy the charm (and can buy additional types for xp or bp.) The second bolded line says each effect costs two motes.

It is not at all clear that it is only each effect after the first that costs 2m in addition to the base 2m cost. The solar mirror is more clearly worded, but doesn't allow the effects to stack, so has no mention of the additional 2m cost.

I'm salty about this because I was spending double the proper cost per essence arrow for about a year in my current game because of unclear charm wording. It made my game a lot more difficult. My archer flurries 4 shots a round, so I was bleeding 8 motes per round for no reason, or simply not applying charm bonuses I had paid for at char-gen.

If we're not going to get bullet points, we need to at least get clear prose that doesn't contradict itself in the charm text. I'm willing to chalk part of this up to Mirror being awful and ruining most of the Abyssal charms, but the point still stands.

# ? May 31, 2014 01:32

Lioness: Feb 6, 2014

...I don't get people who don't like half-elves, the Melnibon�ans were basically half-elves.

# ? Jun 1, 2014 14:02

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

Lioness posted:

...I don't get people who don't like half-elves, the Melnibon�ans were basically half-elves.

I think it's because game mechanics wise they suck (except in 4E).

# ? Jun 2, 2014 02:18

Dammit Who?: Aug 30, 2002; may microbes, bacilli their tissues infest
and tapeworms securely their bowels digest

# ? Jun 2, 2014 05:57

A_Raving_Loon: Dec 12, 2008; Subtle
Quick to Anger

Lacks Woodmellon.

# ? Jun 2, 2014 06:07

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

They're melons!

# ? Jun 2, 2014 06:30

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

Dammit Who? posted:

Haven't we had enough exposed melons in this game line already?

# ? Jun 2, 2014 07:33

Fans: Jun 27, 2013; A reptile dysfunction

Nessus posted:

Don't worry, my long experience at WoD games prepared me for the bitter taste of defeat!

What really drove me off was how it seemed like it was "Bitching About The White Wolf Forums, with the occasional brief session of RP, which half the time was apparently just a private Nobilis game because everyone hated what the game was actually about and complained about it incessantly." Really it is terribly frustrating - I am not going to claim Exalted is a ball-droppingly astonishing game system, or that it is the best thing ever as a game setting despite its great peaks of brilliance, but other than a couple of in-person campaigns and apparently that Abyssals game in the pbp forum, people just bitch and bitch and bitch and bitch about it, instead of, like, playing it.

Hell, I remember from earlier threads here, it sounded like half the time people tried to play it and instead started recreating the rules. Surely SOMEONE out there actually plays this loving game occasionally! Maybe they're just too busy resolving Sidereal martial arts to post.

I think people hate the rules because they really want to love the game, but holy gently caress those rules. I just run it in FATE and have no problems, bar occasionally having someone stick tags on the scene so weird I dread them actually being used. That and Exalted attracts a lot of truly awful character applications, not that other systems don't but Exalted seems to be extra good at it.

Exalted has this weird rule system that's not sure if it prefers narrative, crunch or sticking to the not especially good Storyteller system out of nostalgia. Exalted 3rd Ed was meant to be this clean break where we get to finally just ditch all that awkward mechanical and setting baggage, except a lot of it is coming back because "Well it was there before so we have to have it" or "I don't see why people hate it so much, it works for my play group"

Even most of the awkward setting baggage is coming back but with assurances it'll be totally fine this time, no really, why is everyone so angry? At least Desus is gone. (He is still gone right?)

People like to bitch in the hope they'll change their mind but people have donated over half a million to kickstarter anyway so they already got their money and they don't really have to give a gently caress about what people want. We'll get what we get.

# ? Jun 2, 2014 18:14

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

Is third edition out yet

Edit: It just seems like it's taking a really long time idk

# ? Jun 2, 2014 19:57

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

I'm sure they'll get it out sometime after fourth edition.

# ? Jun 2, 2014 20:14

Bardlebee: Feb 24, 2009; Im Blind.

Sexpansion posted:

Is third edition out yet

Edit: It just seems like it's taking a really long time idk

I dunno. No one knows. I stopped caring. Their updates are still non-updates.

"We are getting close to finishing the charms. We are making good head way on the evocations. We are close to Phase Delta Star-Scream on Chapter 3.IV and Holden enjoys long walks on the beach, which is also in the third phase of play testing. In our unlimited phases of playtesting that also gives no timeline of what that system is like."

It tells me nothing! All of it tells me nothing! No time line and no "Hey these are the chapters we feel are absolutely done. The only chapters left are ABC and A is nearing completion."

How hard is it to make a sentence that gives more timeline context without giving a firm date?! Give us some hope, even if its false!

EDIT: Judging by my first sentence and post, apparently I still care.

Bardlebee fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Jun 3, 2014

# ? Jun 3, 2014 03:21

Sexpansion: Mar 22, 2003; DELETED

I had a lot of enthusiasm for the new edition at first, but now it all just seems kind of sad and hilarious at the same time.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 04:07

KittyEmpress: Dec 30, 2012; Jam Buddies

At the beginning, I was excited. I dropped 150ish bucks on it because everyone [I]knew[I] Holden and PoH and etcetc were geniuses Zhou would fix the game. Then I just isolated myself from the game line, expecting the worst. Then I decided to look poo poo up here, and the first bit of rape charms was already out.

If I could go back in time I would take my money back. Never kick starting a product based on the team again.

I am still interested in the product, but likely not for 2-5 years, when all the books are out. It does not hold the same amount of appeal that the promises did at first reveal.

I got caught by hype, and it was dumb.

The worst thing is that the idea I was so hype'd on was "Creation Sans Rapists" (and baby eaters) and apparently the game can't even deliver on something that simple.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 04:23

Bigup DJ: Nov 8, 2012

I think at this point it's a cliche to say there's no good reason why the devs are handling communications like this. Everyone knows it's completely substandard, and (as far as I know) there's no specific person we can hold accountable for it because we're not entirely sure who decided it should be like this. We don't have any real leverage to demand change because they've already got our money.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 04:46

Plutonis: Mar 25, 2011

lol @ caring about things

# ? Jun 4, 2014 04:49

Argas: Jan 13, 2008; SRW Fanatic

Bigup DJ posted:

I think at this point it's a cliche to say there's no good reason why the devs are handling communications like this. Everyone knows it's completely substandard, and (as far as I know) there's no specific person we can hold accountable for it because we're not entirely sure who decided it should be like this. We don't have any real leverage to demand change because they've already got our money.

Isn't it some higher up's orders? AFAIK, it's not any of the main writers so their hands are tied.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 04:52

Bigup DJ: Nov 8, 2012

Argas posted:

Isn't it some higher up's orders? AFAIK, it's not any of the main writers so their hands are tied.

Yeah that's what they've said, but they're not actually telling us who it is and giving us someone we can direct our complaints to. Anyway it's not worth worrying about because there's really not much we can do without knowing who's responsible for it.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 05:25

Thanqol: Feb 15, 2012; because our character has the 'poet' trait, this update shall be told in the format of a rap battle.

It's a really astounding case study, this. I made the decision early not to back the kickstarter so I've got no skin in this game, but the Exalted 3E has pretty much followed the five stages of grief to the letter. First there was denial - everything was gonna be great! - which slowly broke and gave way to anger as people started to comprehend just how badly everything was hosed. Then that turned into bargaining, desperate negotiation with stephenls to see if he could change anything, if he could please remove some of the rapey poo poo or give out actual content. And now we've finally reached the point of depression where the only posts in this thread are people lamenting their decision to back it in the first place.

I think the decision to cough up $20 for a copy of Apocalypse World instead was the only winning move here.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 07:03

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Uh, what are you talking about. Did you maybe only read the last ten posts or something.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 07:17

RPZip: Feb 6, 2009; WORDS IN THE HEART
CANNOT BE TAKEN

Ferrinus posted:

Uh, what are you talking about. Did you maybe only read the last ten posts or something.

It does closely map onto your experience with Martial Arts vs. Brawl, though.

Except maybe for the acceptance part.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 07:20

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

The whole of human history has been building to my opening the Exalted 3rd edition corebook and learning that a character's Martial Arts ability costs Current Rating x3 experience points to advance. There's no denial here, friend.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 07:21

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# ? May 30, 2024 10:19

Captain Oblivious: Oct 12, 2007; I'm not like other posters

KittyEmpress posted:

At the beginning, I was excited. I dropped 150ish bucks on it because everyone [I]knew[I] Holden and PoH and etcetc were geniuses Zhou would fix the game. Then I just isolated myself from the game line, expecting the worst. Then I decided to look poo poo up here, and the first bit of rape charms was already out.

If I could go back in time I would take my money back. Never kick starting a product based on the team again.

I am still interested in the product, but likely not for 2-5 years, when all the books are out. It does not hold the same amount of appeal that the promises did at first reveal.

I got caught by hype, and it was dumb.

The worst thing is that the idea I was so hype'd on was "Creation Sans Rapists" (and baby eaters) and apparently the game can't even deliver on something that simple.

This has been pretty much my experience. I "care" insofar as I feel intense regret for not backing out of my pledge when I had a chance.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 07:42

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