Hand of the King posted:

I have a negotiation question, but I've been jumping around between Resume and Interviews thread and this one, so here's a background story on my situation.

I applied for a senior position that requires 5 years of clinical operations experience, interviewed, and was told today the recruiter will have an offer for me early next week. Yay!

While I have 2 years of clinical research and 1 year and 9 months of clinical operations experience for a total of ~4 years of clinical experience, I don't have the 5 years of actual clinical operations experience, which the interviewers and the recruiter pointed out. My current company does not make the distinction between clinical research and clinical operations, but this new company does as the job was originally supposed to be posted as a project management/operations position that supports clinical studies. But a lot of the core skills/experience in both clinical research and clinical operations carry over to this position for which I applied.

The recruiter already let me know the salary range for the senior position is from $75k-$86k, which is more than $10k above my current pay, but she wasn't sure how that would work as I didn't meet the "minimum of 5 clin ops experience" requirement. She briefly mentioned the possibility of a level II position, which is a level below senior.

So, while I don't have the offer yet, I want to strategize how I can respond in the event they offer the worst case scenario: level II with a much lower salary range. I understand my situation, but my goal out of this negotiation is to get that senior title because it will, at minimum, get me to $75k. If they offer the senior title and $75k (I would be completely happy with this), should I bother countering considering I don't meet one of the main requirements which they pointed out? Do I even have a leg to stand on?

asur posted:

I don't necessarily agree with Dwight. You only have good leverage if they didn't find a candidate to fill the more senior position and want you to fill it with the lower title. The issue is that you probably don't if this has occurred or if they decided to hire you in the junior position in addition to someone in the senior role.

Uranium 235 posted:

It's only been two business days since my interview but I'm getting antsy. I hate this part of the process.

I think the worst part is constantly thinking things like, "Oh man I should have said x when they asked y, that would have been way better than when I said z."

TheSpartacus posted:

I was wondering how far I should push a negotiation. I just recently graduated college with a science degree, and I was just offered a job starting at $40k, normal healthcare and vacation schedule (2 weeks). From what I have found on the internet for similar jobs, the range is about $35 to 60k per year with the median being about $43k. I have some questions regarding benefits and I am going to call the HR person tomorrow morning, and at the end of that conversation I was going to ask about a change in compensation, to the tune of $44k per year.

Generally I think the conversation will start with telling them I'm excited about the job and had a few questions regarding certain benefits. After asking those, I was planning on asking the HR person if it is appropriate to speak with them about salary negotiations, and if so if I could get a bump to $44k based on the median for that kind of role.

I'm only hesitate to do this because this is my first and only job offer out of college, and I already know that I am the "second best" candidate because I was not hired originally, but the other person backed out because of whatever reason. I am generally happy with $40k, but I would be happier with $44k. Even if they wouldn't move on the salary, I would still take the job, I'm just afraid of them rescinding the offer because I have the audacity to negotiate with them.

Also, I was given a handbook with laid out all the benefits and what not, but it seems that things like vacation is fixed, is that something that generally is hard fixed? If I got another week of vacation I'd be happy, even without salary bump.

Thanks for any advice, and I will post my negotiation experience once I can!

TheSpartacus posted:

I like the idea of phrasing the conversation around the offer instead of just benefits, and will do so!

swenblack posted:

You can also just ask if the offer is negotiable. Anything other than a firm "No," means it is. For entry level positions, it frequently isn't, but I cant see any harm in asking. I'd recommend not playing hardball, though.

TheSpartacus posted:

Well I talked to the boss, and got a "the economy is bad" line, but he said he would get back to me within a day or two because the position needs to be filled and they don't want to wait weeks on this. I expressed my interest in the job and even moved up my start date (which was negotiable to begin with) as well as asking for a $3k bump to "get me all the way there". I wasn't met with a hard no, just the economy line. I expect a firm no soon, and I will accept at the 40k mark, but either way I tried!

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Asking if you can negotiate immediately puts the conversation on the wrong foot: "can I have your permission to get more money". The worst that will happen is they say their original offer is final.

swenblack posted:

You always seem to take the position in this thread that there's no harm in asking for more money at every step,

swenblack posted:

As an aside, I don't appreciate the straw man argument. Asking if an offer is negotiable is way to gain information about it without committing yourself, it's not asking permission.

FrozenVent posted:

It's a great opportunity for the other person to say "No, it's final!" which if they have any smart about them, they will do.

A better way to phrase the question is "Do you want me to accept this lowball?"

FrozenVent posted:

I was making a joke.

If you ask someone if you can negotiate, they will tell you no if it's not in their interest for you to negotiate. Open with a counter offer, don't ask for permission first.

swenblack posted:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but my experience has been quite different. At most large organizations, mine included, HR is extremely unlikely to be the person authorized to negotiate salary and will usually not commit to any particular course of action without consulting with the hiring manager. As a result, they won't actually say "No, the offer is final" unless it has been pre-coordinated as non-negotiable. In either case, you get valuable information before you actually commence negotiations with the hiring manager.

Like I said before, there's a difference between asking HR if the offer is negotiable and asking the hiring manager for permission to negotiate. A huge part of negotiations is understanding who you're talking to and what authority they have to approve or reject your objectives.

swenblack posted:

Wow. I guess all of you have had vastly different experiences than I have had, in both being hired and hiring people.

I do want to re-iterate a few points though:
-Making a counter offer in general negates the previous offer.
-HR and the hiring manager are two separate entities
-The worst thing that can happen is that the offer is retracted, not that they say its non-negotiable

All I'm advocating is the TS evaluate his own situation and throwing out an alternative course of action to gather more information before he negotiates with the person actually empowered to grant what he wants. If TS is completely unwilling to accept even a tiny chance of the offer being retracted, then making a counteroffer isn't necessarily in his best interests, and that's an evaluation that only TS can make.

Telling people to always make a counteroffer is like telling people to put their retirement savings in stocks because stock prices always go up. It's generally proven true over the long run, but the unique situations where it isn't can really bite you.

Otto Skorzeny posted:

That's probably because Kalenn Istarion has been posting itt since before the thread got moved from CoC to BFC.

swenblack posted:

Wow. I guess all of you have had vastly different experiences than I have had, in both being hired and hiring people.

I do want to re-iterate a few points though:
-Making a counter offer in general negates the previous offer.

swenblack posted:

The worst thing that can happen is that the offer is retracted, not that they say its non-negotiable

swenblack posted:

Telling people to always make a counteroffer is like telling people to put their retirement savings in stocks because stock prices always go up. It's generally proven true over the long run, but the unique situations where it isn't can really bite you.

Kalenn Istarion posted:

- Making a counter-offer doesn't negate the original offer unless your counterparty is negotiating in bad faith, in which case you're doing yourself a favour by discovering that in advance. If someone pulled that on me, I'd feel relief at having dodged a bullet.

Cranbe posted:

Legally true, but they can extend an offer, allow you to accept, and then cancel your employment before you ever start working for them anyway—so practically speaking, who cares?

Well, obviously (but see my comment above). I was talking about a scenario in which the person is disinclined to take the offer extended and intends to counter.

That wasn't what I was debating, at least. All I'm saying is, if you want to counteroffer, don't first ask whether you're allowed.

Actually, in a negotiation, a counteroffer does negate the previous offer. That is, in pretty much any negotiation if you counteroffer and they decline, you can't then legally hold them to their previous offer that was made before your counter, because the act of making a counteroffer is an implicit declining of their offer. In the context of hiring negotiations, it's a moot point for reasons mentioned above.
(Not a lawyer—this is based on my layperson's understanding.)

Kalenn Istarion posted:

I can't tell what point you're getting at with this.

Kalenn Istarion posted:

First, it sounds like you've had some really lovely hiring experiences, and that sucks.

That said, and in response to your bullets:
- Making a counter-offer doesn't negate the original offer unless your counterparty is negotiating in bad faith, in which case you're doing yourself a favour by discovering that in advance. If someone pulled that on me, I'd feel relief at having dodged a bullet.
- Your second point is correct, but assuming the company isn't dysfunctional, they will talk to each other. I agree that the tone of your discussion needs to be tailored to who you are talking to and that you should seek to discuss with the decisionmaker, but my earlier comment was in response specifically to your suggestion that you should ask if you can negotiate. This is bad and should be called out as such. You gain literally nothing that you can't gain by asking more directly for a better deal and risk losing what little leverage you might have.
- This is technically correct, but I have not personally experienced this in 8+ years of negotiating on both sides of the hiring table. I do not know of any person to whom this has happened either. I do however know of a great number who have done better for themselves by negotiating so, on balance which do you think I am going to advise people to do?

Otto Skorzeny posted:

Most employers of software engineers are not moronic shitheels, thus your advice contains the (reasonable) assumption that the hiring firm is neither moronic nor a shitheel.

swenblack posted:

I have had some really lovely hiring experiences, including having an offer withdrawn during negotiations, and I know I'm not unique in that experience. The correct approach isn't always the same thing, but rather dependent on the person's individual situation.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario. Al and Bill are roughly similar in their experience, with the exception that Al has been unemployed for a year, while Bill has a job making $85k/yr. Both Al and Bill get an offer for $90k. Both Al and Bill assess that there's a 50% chance they'll be able to negotiate a $5k bump to bring their pay up to the industry standard, but in doing so, there's a 5% chance the offer will be rescinded.

For Al, this means that his EV for negotiating is .5 * $95k + .45 * $90k + .05 * $0k = $88k vs. $90k for not negotiating.
For Bill, the EV is .5 * $95k + .45 * $90k + .05 * $85k = $92.25k.

Mathematically, Bill should negotiate and Al should not, even though the offer is the same for both of them. If I was Al, I'd take a negotiating approach that would minimize the likelihood of the worst outcome, which might include asking if the offer is negotiable before counter-offering, even though doing so reduces the likelihood of receiving the salary increase.

If I were Bill, I'd take the approach of maximizing the best outcome, because I might not be willing to change jobs for only a $5k/yr raise. I'd likely play hardball and tell the company that I wouldn't entertain any offers below $95k, because $90k simply isn't enough to make me leave a job I like.

This is all a made up example, but I hope it illustrates the point I'm trying to make: People should make an assessment of their situation before counter-offering. Most of the time the correct answer is to make a counter-offer, but not always. Telling people to counter is generally good advice, but it isn't always the best advice.

Hand of the King posted:

HR is short staffed so things are backlogged Waiting for this offer is becoming physically painful

Uranium 235 posted:

Update:

Just got out of my interview and I nailed it. I don't think it could have gone better. I am convinced that this is a really great opportunity and they pretty much sold me on leaving my current employer.

I did not disclose my salary or my expectations, saying that I needed to know more about the benefits package and job responsibilities. I asked what range they were thinking, and the HR person said 90-115k, which is a little low. She asked what was typical, and I said 120k is median, 110k is 25th percentile, and 132k is 75th percentile. We moved on after that and didn't revisit my salary or my expectations, so I am curious to see where things go from here.

They want to make a decision soon so hopefully I hear from them soon. Right now I think I will get the offer.

I'll report back after things move along.

Kalenn Istarion posted:

I guess my point is that the risk of having an offer rescinded is much lower than 5%, meaning the calculus ends up almost always favouring negotiations. I agree that an experienced unemployed person is going to be a bit more conservative, but for TC, who I think we're still talking about, your BATNA as a student isn't really zero, it's some other equivalent job in roughly the same salary range, time-lagged by a few months.

Uranium 235 posted:

So I got the offer today. I have to say, my HR contact is a way better negotiator than me. This will be my second "real" job, and she's been in HR for decades.

Anyway, she called with the offer, and I expressed my enthusiasm. She immediately asked what my salary expectation was, instead of offering a salary first. Unsure if I could dodge it, I went ahead and said 120k (I make 104.5k now). She countered with 107.5k, and I said I couldn't leave my job for that. I asked if we could get to $115k, and she said she'd go try. She came back with $112k which I accepted.

I honestly don't know where that stands in my city's salary range for my profession. Salary.com gives the range I cited in my earlier post, but my professional organization's salary surveys don't give any data for specific metro areas.

Although I didn't get the salary I really wanted, I did get a 7.2% raise, and my benefits are almost identical. More importantly, I'm going to be in a brand new facility working with cutting edge technology and with people who are pioneering in our field. I'll learn a lot of new skills and I'll do a lot of things I'd like to do but can't do where I am now. In other words, the environment and culture will be a lot better.

While I don't think I negotiated perfectly, I learned enough from this thread to avoid naming my current salary and to be unafraid to ask for a number that was outside the range they'd quoted me in my interview. Initially I had thought I would ask for 125k, but she anchored my expectations in the interview by quoting a 90k-115k salary range for the position. My current salary is only $104.5k, so I don't have a great BATNA. My profession is very small, and even though I live in a huge metro area, there are usually only 1-2 nearby openings at a time. It's not easy to line up a better offer.

All things considered, I'm happy. I improved my position and I don't think I would have even considered trying if I hadn't read this thread.

Kalenn Istarion posted:

Sounds like you did fine, and almost certainly better than if you hadn't negotiated. Put a different way, you got to almost the top of her range, and halfway between your current salary and your target. Don't undervalue the benefits of being at an industry leader. You'll learn stuff there which will translate into better pay for the rest of your career.

If you want to arm-wave to your local adjusted salary with reference to the national average, you can adjust based on cost of living. Don't use the full national average as that includes places like rural Arizona where I'm going to guess there aren't any people in your field, but if you can get an 'urban' average cost of living and factor your salary against that for the cost in your city it might give you a better sense.

swenblack posted:

Bisty Q. posted:

Jesus, dude. You are wrong. Having an offer rescinded is earth-shatteringly rare. You've poured about 10,000 words into this thread to exhaustively argue with everyone that it is something you should even consider. You shouldn't. The chances of them going "oh, you asked for another $5K? No, and also gently caress you!" are so small it is literally not worth considering.

Any company that you should ever entertain working for would, at the worst, say "Nope, sorry, offer is firm" and not go "HEY MAN gently caress YOU WE'RE JUST GOING TO GO WITH OUR FIRST CHOICE WHO WANTED THE SAME AMOUNT AS YOU." I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but the odds of any professional company rescinding an offer are quite literally zero for all intents and purposes that don't involve fraud.

They decided on you for a reason (and made you #1, not #2 or 3) and ultimately nobody involved really cares if you get an extra $5K or not. Really. The recruiter doesn't get the difference added to their check. The hiring manager doesn't get a bonus for keeping salary low.