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Hodgepodge posted:Honestly, I think I liked the actual misogynists better than the posters showing up to pose as above it all and lecture us with tone arguments. Do you even know what a tone argument is?
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May 31, 2014 20:33
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I do. Do you?
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May 31, 2014 20:39
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U.N. statistics shouldn't stand in the way of a just twitter campaign.
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May 31, 2014 20:40
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I am not a huge fan of twitter campaigns but this has gone in a dumb direction.
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May 31, 2014 20:42
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Hodgepodge posted:I do. Do you? Perhaps you can help me locate the tone argument that was made in this thread, that you're presumably referring to.
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May 31, 2014 20:45
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Brannock posted:Perhaps you can help me locate the tone argument that was made in this thread, that you're presumably referring to. SealHammer asking us to approach misogynists as if we are therapists would be an example. Would you like me to read the thread for you further?
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May 31, 2014 20:55
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Maybe if Roger's therapists and parents had been aware of the groups Roger was associating with, and were more aware of the ideology behind it, they could have been more effective in providing help. I know they saw a youtube video, and I believe some forum posts, but if they weren't aware of this particular worldview, then these things are being seen outside of context. Maybe his mother and father could have sat him down for some nice long chats about men and women. Not that doing this once or twice would have "fixed" him, but perhaps they'd better be able to address where he was coming from had they known more about it.Nessus posted:Right, that's fair, but I am questioning why it is apparently necessary for me, a non-woman-hater, or God forbid women themselves, to engage in a therapeutic relationship with people who loathe them. Like, that is my objection, the implicit requirement for a therapeutic attitude. It is certainly laudatory to do that, but it seems, implicitly, that the choice here is "engage in unpaid amateur therapy for assholes" or "indirectly contribute to whatever bullshit those assholes do, now and in the future." It places responsibility, possibly without bounds, on me (and everyone in general) for the possible harms caused by that individual - which in turn neatly squares the circle and makes it, once again, the victim's fault they were victimized, because if ONLY they, or others, had reached out more...! Yeah, I don't agree that it's necessary at all, it's just one more tactic in fighting this poo poo, to be used when it's best suited. For example, when talking to friends are sympathetic to this stuff. Though sometimes you just have to say "This poo poo isn't welcome around me," whether in person or online, etc. If nothing else it least it keeps people from thinking their views are tolerated by decent people.
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May 31, 2014 20:57
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Brannock posted:Do you even know what a tone argument is? You realize that instead of insinuating that you are smarter than him by knowing something he doesn't, you could have just demonstrated, immediately, how he might be wrong, since its something as simple as the definition of a term? But it's becoming obvious that most people here kind of like to just post things hoping someone trips themselves up instead of actually making a point and trying to shut someone down.
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May 31, 2014 20:59
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Hodgepodge posted:SealHammer asking us to approach misogynists as if we are therapists would be an example. No wonder I missed it then, because I don't see remotely how that's a tone argument. I thought you were referring to my post on the previous page. Apologies for the aggressive question. No one followed up on him, either, so let's look at it since it seems to have rubbed you the wrong way. Might as well figure it out, right? SealHammer posted:If I hate women and believe that everyone supporting women is out to destroy me, then telling me that I'm a crazy rear end in a top hat who is a danger to those around him is probably not going to dislodge me from my views. Quite the contrary, I'm probably going to see that as evidence supporting my delusions and further entrench myself in them. Can you explain what's the problem with this post rather than handwaving it away as ~tone argument~? I mean, take Elliot Rodger as an example. I read his manifesto. I very seriously doubt that heckling and shaming him would have gotten him to change his worldview and opinions. Is it fallacious to suggest that there are perhaps better ways of getting through to someone?
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May 31, 2014 21:00
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Where were the actual misogynists itt?
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May 31, 2014 21:00
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Speak Up: Responding to Everyday Bigotry by the splc might be a good resource for people who find their friends/family members getting drawn into this stuff.
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May 31, 2014 21:01
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ToastyPotato posted:You realize that instead of insinuating that you are smarter than him by knowing something he doesn't, you could have just demonstrated, immediately, how he might be wrong, since its something as simple as the definition of a term? But it's becoming obvious that most people here kind of like to just post things hoping someone trips themselves up instead of actually making a point and trying to shut someone down. I thought he was referring to something else, thus my phrasing of the question. I've gotten the same analysis out of this thread that you did and certainly don't want to contribute to it.
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May 31, 2014 21:01
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Brannock posted:No wonder I missed it then, because I don't see remotely how that's a tone argument. I thought you were referring to my post on the previous page. Apologies for the aggressive question. No one followed up on him, either, so let's look at it since it seems to have rubbed you the wrong way. Might as well figure it out, right? To be fair, I was including you in the 'above it all' category.
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May 31, 2014 21:09
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Hodgepodge posted:To be fair, I was including you in the 'above it all' category. Thus the confusion. And the rest of my post?
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May 31, 2014 21:12
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Powercrazy posted:Where were the actual misogynists itt? Powercrazy posted:if someone is concerned about being treated unfairly in a divorce trial, or being kicked out of a university because a student tribunal found them guilty of something they did to someone, rather then say, "hey maybe it's kind of hosed up that the system is setup this way," it's much easier to say your kind deserve it, categorize them as a misogenist and move on smug in your moral righteousness. EDIT: Also you might be surprised to learn that people who care about this stuff on the Internet sometimes go out into the real world and try and make a difference. But no, it's the Internet and that means it's just farting into space and moralizing circlejerks.
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May 31, 2014 21:14
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Brannock posted:Thus the confusion. And the rest of my post? Not much different from the rest. You seem to have confused yourself for a professor of rhetoric and this thread for your students.
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May 31, 2014 21:17
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Also people saying "We should sit down and patiently listen" (though that might be an option to people with friends into this stuff) should perhaps realize that a lot of MRA poo poo is about hurting women, first and foremost, whether it's economically, socially, emotionally, or physically. So sometime of this ridicule and shame being thrown their way is a defense mechanism. They have all the ammo they need just because women exist. Again, mockery and perhaps righteous hate are sometimes the only available ways a person has to deal with poo poo like this:avoiceformen posted:In that light, I have ideas about women who spend evenings in bars hustling men for drinks, playing on their sexual desires so they can get shitfaced on the beta dole; paying their bar tab with the pussy pass. And the women who drink and make out, doing everything short of sex with men all evening, and then go to his apartment at 2:00 a.m.. Sometimes both of these women end up being the “victims” of rape.
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May 31, 2014 21:18
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The dumb misogynists are hanging tough with their wrong opinions and getting a train run on them. The smart misogynists are attacking the dumb ones, safe in the knowledge that their opinions will be unassailable. Yes, I am complaining about the witchhunt by escalating it. agarjogger fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 21:19
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Hodgepodge posted:Not much different from the rest. You seem to have confused yourself for a professor of rhetoric and this thread for your students. To be fair this would probably be going better if we were being less passive aggressive towards each other. At least it would be much less confusing.
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May 31, 2014 21:21
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Powercrazy posted:Where were the actual misogynists itt? [goatse] (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)
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May 31, 2014 21:25
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CharlestheHammer posted:To be fair this would probably be going better if we were being less passive aggressive towards each other. Every thread in this subforum would have like 2 pages of posts tops if people were less passive aggressive toward each other. Mostly because the vast majority of the people who post in it would be unable to do so.
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May 31, 2014 21:30
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How many of you have reported my previous post?
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May 31, 2014 21:32
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lmao D&D is literally the laughing stock on SA now.
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May 31, 2014 21:34
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SA literally has child pornographic images hosted on its servers and you dumb faggots try to word play it as nothing more than NWS because its anime.
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May 31, 2014 21:35
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May 31, 2014 21:37
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Ungoal posted:lmao D&D is literally the laughing stock on SA now.
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May 31, 2014 21:42
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Nessus posted:Right, that's fair, but I am questioning why it is apparently necessary for me, a non-woman-hater, or God forbid women themselves, to engage in a therapeutic relationship with people who loathe them. Like, that is my objection, the implicit requirement for a therapeutic attitude. It is certainly laudatory to do that, but it seems, implicitly, that the choice here is "engage in unpaid amateur therapy for assholes" or "indirectly contribute to whatever bullshit those assholes do, now and in the future." It places responsibility, possibly without bounds, on me (and everyone in general) for the possible harms caused by that individual - which in turn neatly squares the circle and makes it, once again, the victim's fault they were victimized, because if ONLY they, or others, had reached out more...! I'm not saying you have an obligation to be an angel to someone and I'm not saying you have an obligation to not be a dick to someone. All I'm saying is that widespread awareness of how to treat people like that is probably the best way to nip a problem in the bud before it ever has an opportunity to materialize. It's like if you have knowledge that a person may plausibly commit a crime - you have no obligation to report it to the police, as the onus is not on you to make sure people don't commit crimes. But the crime might never happen in the first place if you take five minutes to call the police and voice your concern. Most people don't have the same amount of knowledge or concern with regards to mental/social help as they do with regards to the police or other emergency services. Thoughtful, proactive solutions that eliminate the possibility of problems are much more effective than reactive solutions born out of fear and anger. I think the cop who posted earlier in the thread said it best when he said that the systems in place to prevent people like Rodger from getting to the point where they're committing murder were deficient or totally broken at every level. The easiest and probably simplest place to start in order to make sure more Elliot Rodgers don't show up in the future is to examine and understand where those systems failed and devise ways to strengthen them so that those people don't fall through the cracks. Hodgepodge posted:SealHammer asking us to approach misogynists as if we are therapists would be an example. Can you describe to me what a tone argument is, and how my post is an example of it? Serious question. SealHammer fucked around with this message at 21:50 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 21:42
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Every D&D poster is a pathetically hypocritical piece of loving poo poo when it comes to feminism, capitalism, social justice, etc. Also, yeah lets just sit inside all day posting about how much you're jealous of the people who are actually getting laid on a loving friday night.
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May 31, 2014 21:43
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Ungoal posted:Every D&D poster is a pathetically hypocritical piece of loving poo poo when it comes to feminism, capitalism, social justice, etc. Also, yeah lets just sit inside all day posting about how much you're jealous of the people who are actually getting laid on a loving friday night. Nice tu quoque fallacy. 
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May 31, 2014 21:50
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I like how people's true colors come out when they get frustrated. People have been quietly and calmly shutting down all the stupid little arguments that Ungoal and others have brought up, and now he finally snaps and oh look what a surprise, he posts on Something Sensitive.
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May 31, 2014 21:52
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we must work to ensure ungoals revolutionary suicide was not in vain
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May 31, 2014 21:54
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agarjogger posted:The dumb misogynists are hanging tough with their wrong opinions and getting a train run on them. Since you're the person who said rape and sexual assault didn't affect you, I assume you're in the "dumb misogynist" correct?
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May 31, 2014 21:59
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Ungoal posted:SA literally has child pornographic images hosted on its servers and you dumb faggots try to word play it as nothing more than NWS because its anime. Yes, people posting ITT are more to blame for this than you? I don't even get this. What a sad weird meltdown. Ungoal posted:Also, yeah lets just sit inside all day posting about how much you're jealous of the people who are actually getting laid on a loving friday night. Haha this owns. People getting laid on a friday night = regulars who post on a forum obsessed with another forum they got banned from. I'm sure lowtax will refund your $20 soon. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:11 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 22:07
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rkajdi posted:Since you're the person who said rape and sexual assault didn't affect you, I assume you're in the "dumb misogynist" correct? hold that thought, I'll brb right back
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May 31, 2014 22:13
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So anyway, this article seems like the kind of thing that more men should be saying. Not that men being more comfortable talking about not having sex is some sort of panacea, but if we were more comfortable with this, I feel that PUAhate type peope, at least some of them, would feel they have more of a place at the table when it comes to talking about sex. quote:I know, however, that it's no more easy for me to be vulnerable with someone and say that I haven't had sex – knowing that people may react with disgust or disdain – than it is for women to be vulnerable and admit they've had sex when people may well react with similar disdain or disgust (or in more destructive ways then that). Really, though, virginity is a bullshit concept that helps no one, and the sooner we throw it away, the better.
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May 31, 2014 22:18
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SealHammer posted:Can you describe to me what a tone argument is, and how my post is an example of it? Serious question. Yeah, for sure. This blog post defines it nicely: quote:The tone argument is where you object to someone else’s argument based on its tone: it is too angry, too hateful, not calm enough, not nice enough, etc. It is a logical fallacy because none of those things has anything to do with whether the truth was spoken. It is used to derail and silence. In your case, suggesting that we're just going to alienate misogynists further by confronting them is a tone argument. It suggests that the problem with our argument isn't its content, but its presentation. This is frequently used to derail arguments about gender, race, etc, by distracting from the actual substance of the matter at hand. Not that there is no role for being pleasant or empathetic. See my first post in this thread for an example.
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May 31, 2014 22:19
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Concerning the path of sympathy and stuff, is there any risk that that could assist in the normalization of their thinking, just the same as hanging out in isolated community does? Like "oh, this guy doesn't find it THAT disgusting, maybe it's not as bad as I thought!" or something? That's what I'm worried about.
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May 31, 2014 22:24
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Nessus posted:I was unclear, are you saying I'm mirroring their attitudes or that I've touched on the implicit threat underlying much of their desires? The second one (I think). "Moderate" "reasonable" reactionaries express Deep Concern about rhetoric and the level of discourse in their defense of shrieking hate and an inherently violent status quo. You see this on every front. The left/blacks/ladies/queers are being told HAY BE NICE while the other side rapes, murders and generally brutalizes their opponents. You are probably aware of this, so don't think this is pointed at you or anything. More just, yeah; you got it.
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May 31, 2014 22:32
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Samurai Sanders posted:Concerning the path of sympathy and stuff, is there any risk that that could assist in the normalization of their thinking, just the same as hanging out in isolated community does? Like "oh, this guy doesn't find it THAT disgusting, maybe it's not as bad as I thought!" or something? That's what I'm worried about. Depends on how impressionable you are. Some people form their own opinions regardless of the majority around them and others will change mindset quickly and without reflection to follow the majority.
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May 31, 2014 22:33
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Pope Fabulous XXIV posted:The second one (I think). "Moderate" "reasonable" reactionaries express Deep Concern about rhetoric and the level of discourse in their defense of shrieking hate and an inherently violent status quo. You see this on every front. The left/blacks/ladies/queers are being told HAY BE NICE while the other side rapes, murders and generally brutalizes their opponents. "Women should be raped" *crickets* "Hey look at these stupid assholes saying women should be raped." "Whoah easy there, you're just going to drive them away from the conversation"
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May 31, 2014 22:38
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