|
Raskolnikov38 posted:Well there's really not much to discuss, everyone agrees mental health issues need to be addressed and gun chat goes no where. The GBS thread is currently exploring just how pathetic this guy was. well apparently there is something to disucss because mental health wasn't the issue any more than mental health was McVeigh's issue: they're both products of (albeit different) cultures that justify political violence: against women in Rodger's case, against the government in McVeigh's. Rodger was a domestic terrorist, and his target was women.
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 19:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 6, 2024 20:11 |
|
|
He was a spree killer, I don't know if 'terrorist' is the right term here. He didn't seem to care about creating fear among the greater population to further an political or religious agenda, he just wanted revenge for perceived slights against himself. I wouldn't call a serial killer who targets only women a 'terrorist' either.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:08
|
|
|
Give him a beard and a tan and the media would be talking about terroristic honor killings.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:09
|
|
|
I'd have to agree that mental health isn't the issue here. So should MRAs continue to be ignored as a silly group of misogynistic assholes, or is it time to take them seriously and take further action against those who espouse their beliefs? That is to say, is violence the logical end result of their belief system or was this a lone nut who took it too far? EDIT: I believe a line has been crossed here and those folks should be hounded like members of the KKK, but I'm happy to hear why I'm wrong.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:11
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:He was a spree killer, I don't know if 'terrorist' is the right term here. He didn't seem to care about creating fear among the greater population to further an political or religious agenda, he just wanted revenge for perceived slights against himself. I wouldn't call a serial killer who targets only women a 'terrorist' either. Male supremacy is political
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:12
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:Male supremacy is political Yeah, but his motives didn't seem to be to further male supremacy as a political ideology. He was influenced by the politics of the world, but he was acting primarily for personal, vengeful reasons.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
Yo WhiskeyJuvenile can you add something for people that haven't been following the various threads and need some back story/context?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:19
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:Yeah, but his motives didn't seem to be to further male supremacy as a political ideology. He was influenced by the politics of the world, but he was acting primarily for personal, vengeful reasons. He did, however, broadcast his message far and wide with a violent campaign to ensure his manifesto would be discussed for some time to come. He was clearly making a public point...
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:24
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:Yeah, but his motives didn't seem to be to further male supremacy as a political ideology. He was influenced by the politics of the world, but he was acting primarily for personal, vengeful reasons. It seems like he was a lonely narcissistic rear end in a top hat with no friends who hated himself for being less successful with women than others but was too narcissistic to really blame himself... thus he blamed the women instead for being too ignorant and mean to love him. I'd also say that his privileged upbringing might have contributed to his narcissism and judgment of the other non-virgins of being beneath him. The sad thing is it seems like if he had friends (like the one who ended the friendship supposedly without a reason why) who could have given him a pep-talk/"you'll get 'em eventually, tiger" sort of thing this might have been avoided. EDIT: Basically if he had been given positive attention from peers, hence his public manifesto/cries for attention. So maybe instead of "it was misogyny!" or "it was mental illness!" we can say it was a bit of both and move on (or try to tackle both)? K, that's I all got from my armchair and psychology wiki readings.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:26
|
|
|
Mechafunkzilla posted:He was a spree killer, I don't know if 'terrorist' is the right term here. He didn't seem to care about creating fear among the greater population to further an political or religious agenda, he just wanted revenge for perceived slights against himself. I wouldn't call a serial killer who targets only women a 'terrorist' either. I both agree and disagree with you here. His dream world was one where women were terrorized into submission, in my opinion that's explicitly stated by him. I also think he was too stupid to make it willfully political, so "terrorist" probably isn't the most appropriate term. I think he would have been a terrorist, in the manner of McVeigh, if he wasn't a complete and utter narcissistic dweeb. Also, WhiskeyJuvenile, you misspelled "misogyny" in the title 
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:28
|
|
|
I think it shouldn't be ignored that not only were more men than women killed in this, but that his diatribes also targeted "hedonistic" "successful" "brutes" I.E. men. If you actually look into alot of the things he writes about, you'll see he has kind of a problem with Men of Color associating with "blonde" women, highlighting the racist tendencies present in the Asian-American community to this day. Rodger was also a member of an anti-PUA group and overall he comes off more as a  SEXHAVERS type than anything else. His extreme narcissism manifested itself in hatred of the very women he desired and the men who he saw as being successful with them.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:33
|
|
|
The killer was a product of our culture. Dominant cultural institutions teach young boys that a woman's sexuality exists only to be owned and controlled by men, and that worthy white males with money are entitled to their pick of the most desirable women because they are the most deserving. When Rodger's experience did not match what he had been taught to expect as his birthright, this was perceived by him as an extreme injustice which had to be redressed. I think we can see this as what happens when a combination of a just-world ideology and inflated self-esteem clash with one's real experiences. What happens when belief in one's superiority and the entitled expectations that come with it are frustrated? The killer was only "mentally ill" in so far as our society is constructed so as to mass-produce such mental illness.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:33
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:The killer was a product of our culture. Dominant cultural institutions teach young boys that a woman's sexuality exists only to be owned and controlled by men, and that worthy white males with money are entitled to their pick of the most desirable women because they are the most deserving. When Rodger's experience did not match what he had been taught to expect as his birthright, this was perceived by him as an extreme injustice which had to be redressed. Unfortunately Rodgers is a Hapa/Asian-American and as one myself I would appreciate you not whitewashing his experience/silencing our voices and claiming his identity for whiteness, thank you. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 20:38 on May 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:35
|
|
|
Basically he was the ultimate nice guy who thought that being civil to women entitled him to a sexual relationship and when that didn't work out he decided to kill all women.   From his "manifesto". Of course, the response ranging from the MRA community on the internet ranges from "AHEM Not All Men go berserk and specifically target women for violence due to rejection" to "maybe if these women hadn't friendzoned this dude they'd still be alive." Anyway, this has rightly disturbed women everywhere and sparked a conversation on Twitter about these kinds of dudes who feel entitled to sex from women and also generally how damaging sexual dynamics in America are for women. The #yesallwomen hashtag is a play on #notallmen.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:36
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:I think it shouldn't be ignored that not only were more men than women killed in this, but that his diatribes also targeted "hedonistic" "successful" "brutes" I.E. men. If you actually look into alot of the things he writes about, you'll see has kind of a problem with Men of Color associating with "blonde" women, highlighting the racist tendencies present in the Asian-American community to this day. Rodger was also a member of an anti-PUA group and overall he comes off more as a I think it should be ignored that more men than women were killed, it has very little to do with his motivation. He could have killed 100 men and he still would have been motivated by a hatred for women. He did target men, but it was his opinion that women caused men to be that way and that these men were simply doing the intelligent thing by being "hedonistic", "successful", "brutes", as you put it. He wrote that women are below men and incapable of critical thought, he merely thought the other men were evil by being ensnared by evil women. He thought that the evil of men was a byproduct of the evil of women.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:38
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Unfortunately Rodgers is a Hapa and as one myself I would appreciate you not whitewashing his experience and claiming his identity for whiteness, thank you. My mistake! EasternBronze posted:Rodger was also a member of an anti-PUA group
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:38
|
|
|
I'm inclined to agree with Laurie Penny who characterizes it as "misogynist extremism". http://www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:40
|
|
|
BexGu posted:Yo WhiskeyJuvenile can you add something for people that haven't been following the various threads and need some back story/context? Yea I don't understand this thread at all.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:40
|
|
|
I think that it's political and thus he's a terrorist. The fact that he killed more men than women should NOT be ignored, but it doesn't mean he wasn't motivated by misogyny. Instead, it shows yet again how misogyny is harmful to men as well as women.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
Solkanar512 posted:I'd have to agree that mental health isn't the issue here. Mental health is certainly an issue here, along with a fuckload of others. An entire ocean of social, economic, and political issues churns to create these kinds of events. Maybe if law enforcement were staffed with competent mental health professionals, they wouldn't have looked at those videos where he exhibits an obvious narcissistic disorder while explaining how he is going to have a "day of retribution" and said he was perfectly normal (and would bring no profit to the station like a drug case)? But my real point is too many people try to simplify something like this into "This one thing is the cause".
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:51
|
|
|
It's a bit reminiscent of the 1989 École Polytechnique massacre in Montreal though perhaps the motivation isn't quite the same (Marc Lepine seemed to have more of a hatred for women who were more successful than him professionally rather than those who wouldn't sleep with him). At any rate the 1989 massacre is still commemorated in Canada today and did spark some political response including stricter gun control laws, though those have recently been rolled back.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 20:55
|
|
|
Bob le Moche posted:
This is the crucial rebuttal to anyone who tries to hand wave away his MRA views in either defending that view (which I'm not accusing anyone here of doing) or trying to point to other things as the underlying cause of his actions/reasoning. The guy was a militant misogynist to the core and if not for the fact that the sorority house's door he targeted was locked the kill count would have been much higher and the ratio of female to male victims would have been drastically different so yes, I do think that the MRA crowd not only can be linked to him, but should be linked to him just like anti-government militias were linked to McVeigh.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:01
|
|
|
Since my post is in the op I would like to clarify that my nothing to discuss remark was for USPOL where discussions on misogyny aren't really the point of that thread.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:02
|
|
|
I don't think mental illness is the issue, and should not be made the issue. Mental illness is stigmatized enough as it is.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:03
|
|
|
Jimbozig posted:I think that it's political and thus he's a terrorist. The fact that he killed more men than women should NOT be ignored, but it doesn't mean he wasn't motivated by misogyny. Instead, it shows yet again how misogyny is harmful to men as well as women. Thanks for saying this. I believe that it should be "ignored" in the context of "he killed more men than women, therefore he wasn't motivated by misogyny", but not in the context that you put it in. That's actually a more thoughtful way to put it. DONT CARE BUTTON posted:Mental health is certainly an issue here, along with a fuckload of others. An entire ocean of social, economic, and political issues churns to create these kinds of events. Maybe if law enforcement were staffed with competent mental health professionals, they wouldn't have looked at those videos where he exhibits an obvious narcissistic disorder while explaining how he is going to have a "day of retribution" and said he was perfectly normal (and would bring no profit to the station like a drug case)? The "day of retribution" video was not uploaded until after the police had questioned him, but I agree that the other videos he had posted showed enough warning signs. I also get annoyed at people trying to simplify it into "this one thing is the cause" and agree that all aspects should be looked at. I don't think anyone here is trying to simplify it to that degree, though.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:04
|
|
|
e: nm. I'll just say his target obviously wasn't "women." He had a lot of issues that had an extremely complicated intersection on his psyche. But women weren't "the true victims" or whatever dumbass SJWs are arguing.
ate shit on live tv fucked around with this message at 21:15 on May 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:07
|
|
|
DONT CARE BUTTON posted:Mental health is certainly an issue here, along with a fuckload of others. An entire ocean of social, economic, and political issues churns to create these kinds of events. Maybe if law enforcement were staffed with competent mental health professionals, they wouldn't have looked at those videos where he exhibits an obvious narcissistic disorder while explaining how he is going to have a "day of retribution" and said he was perfectly normal (and would bring no profit to the station like a drug case)? It most certainly is. There's no doubt that the self-selected cultural and media outlets that he exposed himself to were not any help, it only fueled his delusions of persecution. In watching the video he made, it's pretty clear he was an extreme narcissist. His fixation on finding a girlfriend or sexual partner precluded nearly every other pursuit in his life. Amergin is also correct in pointing out that this was not helped by the fact that he likely didn't have any real friends, even of his own gender. He pretty clearly held contempt for anyone who wasn't him. Regarding why he wasn't getting treatment, the involuntary commitment law in California provides that he could have been committed by police officers or family members if they were as disturbed by those videos as they should have been. Detailed here: http://www.disabilityrightsca.org/pubs/502401.pdf So the question that I would ask, why didn't the parents, or the police, having watched his ramblings, not push for commitment? He makes very specific, targeted threats against others in his videos. I'll tell you this, having worked mental health field, if this were a poor person on SSDI making these threats he would have been committed. The mitigating influence of his parents money/wishes were absolutely a deciding factor in not taking action to have him committed. Had they given the word, he likely would have been. (Video evidence of homicidal urges are rare in commitment hearings) the parents, as bad as they no doubt feel, could have had him committed prior to his actions.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:13
|
|
|
Powercrazy posted:He killed 2 women and 4 guys what does 'misogeny' have to do with it? This is a joke, right? Have you read his manifesto? Have you forgotten that he headed straight for a sorority house full of women with the intent of killing them all, but was fortunately stopped by a locked door? Have you not heard that prior to this he was so enraged at women that he went to a party and tried to push some women off a balcony?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:13
|
|
|
Powercrazy posted:He killed 2 women and 4 guys what does 'misogeny' have to do with it? Because in his rambling manifesto of delusions it seems he hates women somewhat more than he hates men or at least theoretically hates them for a different, totally incoherent reason. Plus, he COULD have killed more women.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:14
|
|
|
I wonder how common Narcissism is among mass shooters? I also wonder what a concerted effort to stigmatize and eliminate it would look like.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:18
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Because in his rambling manifesto of delusions it seems he hates women somewhat more than he hates men or at least theoretically hates them for a different, totally incoherent reason. Plus, he COULD have killed more women. He didn't just hate women "somewhat more" than he hated men, he hated women and the result was that he hated men because he believed women caused him to hate men. He didn't hate men as a fundamental concept, he did hate women as a fundamental concept. He literally thought that men would be fine if women didn't exist, and that women caused all the evils in men. Afterall, he was a man and he was "good", therefore his explanation was that men must be corrupted by women. This was his view according to his writings. It's a subtle but important difference.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
Prosopagnosiac posted:So the question that I would ask, why didn't the parents, or the police, having watched his ramblings, not push for commitment? He makes very specific, targeted threats against others in his videos. I'll tell you this, having worked mental health field, if this were a poor person on SSDI making these threats he would have been committed. The mitigating influence of his parents money/wishes were absolutely a deciding factor in not taking action to have him committed. Had they given the word, he likely would have been. (Video evidence of homicidal urges are rare in commitment hearings) the parents, as bad as they no doubt feel, could have had him committed prior to his actions. The video was uploaded right before the killings. The parents alerted the police and drove straight down toward his place of living. They heard about the shooting on the radio on their way there. They also called the police regarding his mental health once before. And the officers found him to be "a perfectly fine young man". So what the hell do you want them to do?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
How could Timothy McVeigh be a racist? poo poo-tonnes of white people in OKC.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
WarEternal posted:He didn't just hate women "somewhat more" than he hated men, he hated women and the result was that he hated men because he believed women caused him to hate men. He didn't hate men as a fundamental concept, he did hate women as a fundamental concept. He literally thought that men would be fine if women didn't exist, and that women caused all the evils in men. Afterall, he was a man and he was "good", therefore his explanation was that men must be corrupted by women. This was his view according to his writings. It's a subtle but important difference. Not important enough to him it seems to cause him to actually kill more women than men. Please though, let's really deeply analyze everything this guy wrote, it would be dangerous to just dismiss it as the product of a diseased mind. Have we thoroughly investigated to the point where we can rule out that he had accomplices in the MRA community?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:22
|
|
|
WhiskeyJuvenile posted:well apparently there is something to disucss because mental health wasn't the issue any more than mental health was McVeigh's issue: they're both products of (albeit different) cultures that justify political violence: against women in Rodger's case, against the government in McVeigh's. Those aren't necessarily exclusive categories. You can be mentally ill and also be a domestic terrorist. poo poo like this doesn't have a single isolated cause. The mental illness makes people vulnerable to the cult indoctrination, etc. That said, the angle that's most under-discussed is the media's role in encouraging and perpetuating these kinds of spree killings. quote:Paul Mullen, Christopher Cantor and colleagues have published an analysis of possible copy cat mass slayings where they argue the influence of one rampage on another may have occurred across continents, and even over many years. http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/batman-shooting-mass-killings-are-mass-killings-contagi_b_1697364.html I know, huffpo link, but it's the angle on these issues I see discussed the least.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Not important enough to him it seems to cause him to actually kill more women than men. Please though, let's really deeply analyze everything this guy wrote, it would be dangerous to just dismiss it as the product of a diseased mind. Have we thoroughly investigated to the point where we can rule out that he had accomplices in the MRA community? Is there any reason to think this or are you just getting a boner for going after them? I think if you look hard enough you can find shitbags like this dude for any ideology.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Powercrazy posted:e: nm. I'll just say his target obviously wasn't "women." He had a lot of issues that had an extremely complicated intersection on his psyche. But women weren't "the true victims" or whatever dumbass SJWs are arguing. motherfucking page one god drat
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:23
|
|
|
Baron FU posted:The video was uploaded right before the killings. The parents alerted the police and drove straight down toward his place of living. They heard about the shooting on the radio on their way there. Actually, the police interviewed him at his door and didn't enter his apartment / room and had they done that they would have seen a few weapons. He admits that in his manifesto that he was almost busted but thankfully the cops just talked to him and didn't take a look around. Really, the only fault I can really find with the parents is that they were too apathetic with their obviously special needs child which while unfortunate isn't exactly the worst thing in the world. I find way more fault with the local PD (and this isn't just a "gently caress the police" mentality) for not being thorough along with (by last count) 4 professional counselors that saw him and didn't see any warning signs.
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:25
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Not important enough to him it seems to cause him to actually kill more women than men. Not for lack of trying, though. Or did you miss the part where he didn't get to attack his intended target?
|
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 6, 2024 20:11 |
|
|
Lessail posted:motherfucking page one god drat Yep. Whenever you try to "score points" for your ideology it gets called out pretty quickly. Anyway we can add "misogeny" to his list of problems, cool. Now what? A Winner is Jew posted:Actually, the police interviewed him at his door and didn't enter his apartment / room and had they done that they would have seen a few weapons. He admits that in his manifesto that he was almost busted but thankfully the cops just talked to him and didn't take a look around. Yea this is actually much more interesting. Society as a whole failed here. Not just for creating this kid, but also when it was rightly pointed out that, "hey there is a problem with this guy right here." We, as a society, have nothing in place to handle this. The problem is 100% identified, but there was nothing anyone could do. ate shit on live tv fucked around with this message at 21:29 on May 27, 2014 |
|
#
?
May 27, 2014 21:27
|
|