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Speaking of, what's the deal with companies that say "we know you might be going elsewhere after like a year or so, so we'll help you learn stuff you wouldn't see otherwise"? Paraphrased, obviously. I found it a little odd that they seemed to assume that I'd jump ship so quickly, although it was a startup and I was interviewing for a junior position. Is this common?
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Jun 1, 2014 16:40
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Pollyanna posted:I found it a little odd that they seemed to assume that I'd jump ship so quickly, although it was a startup and I was interviewing for a junior position. Is this common? Yes, the idea of holding a "career" where you get raises that will compete with what you can get shopping around is long gone. They'd rather pay you poo poo for as long as possible and get their moneys worth than invest in to you long term.
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Jun 1, 2014 16:56
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uncleTomOfFinland posted:Seeing that the job situation here is not-so-spectacular and I have no real attachments here, I have been thinking of getting a programming job somewhere where it's preferably warmer and people speak English outside work. I also have heard that the salaries are significantly higher even though the healthcare costs probably do eat into it. Would it be reasonable or at least possible for someone in my situation to seek employment in the US, Australia, NZ or even GB and expect to get any good offers without having some kind of inside contacts? How should I go about it? How are job interviews generally conducted in this kind of situation? Do they hire or at least invite people over based on internet interviews, or do I have to go to some country for months on some kind of temporary visa and hope I land a job there during my stay? It is definitely possible to have minimal to zero healthcare costs in the US and have a much better salary. My healthcare coverage has ranged from paying nothing out of pocket for the coverage, then $15 copays and deductibles for a yearly max out of pocket of like $1500, to "you and your spouse pay literally nothing ever"
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Jun 1, 2014 18:11
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Pollyanna posted:Speaking of, what's the deal with companies that say "we know you might be going elsewhere after like a year or so, so we'll help you learn stuff you wouldn't see otherwise"? Paraphrased, obviously. I found it a little odd that they seemed to assume that I'd jump ship so quickly, although it was a startup and I was interviewing for a junior position. Is this common? What companies actually directly tell you this? If the company thinks that way, they probably think of programmers are cogs they can easily replace. I probably wouldn't work for those companies (again though I probably have the luxury of rejecting these kinds of jobs). It's pretty bad for your business when people of domain knowledge leave your company which, unless you're just totally useless, you should qualify as. Usually it is not the employer paying low wages, it is merely the employees jumping ship because some other company wants a programmer doing X and are willing to pay a little bit more. The problem with this is most startups (bay area anyways) rarely do raises, even though they should be. Company sounds weird though..
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Jun 1, 2014 21:02
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down with slavery posted:Yes, the idea of holding a "career" where you get raises that will compete with what you can get shopping around is long gone. They'd rather pay you poo poo for as long as possible and get their moneys worth than invest in to you long term. Quoting this for posterity. I got poo poo on like a loving toilet while my mother withered and died instead of being given a fair wage/pto so I could, yanno, make the most of those final months. I had literally nothing for bereavement time, let alone that week I watched her die. I had to collect donations to get a cremation and funeral. gently caress Them (and their bullshit): Unless they've scratched your back, you don't owe them poo poo. EDIT: government stuff can sometimes break that mold! Look around - sometimes they don't lowball you enough that the awesome bennies don't make up for it. Fuck them fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 01:12
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Alright guys, just heard back from them, they aren't going to raise salary at all. My wife and I crunched numbers this weekend though and if we were to get an apartment for < $2k somewhere, we would actually be in a better place financially than we are now. I'm going to accept the offer, as it seems like it would be an interesting job and it meets our requirements for finances and gets us to NYC. I'm sure plenty of people in here will advise against this, but I don't want to be getting down to the wire of absolutely having to get to the city for her school and be put in an even shittier spot with an equivalent or worse offer. I'm probably going to take the $5k relocation that would have to be repaid if I leave within 2 years, and put it aside somewhere in the event that I want to bail for some reason. Edit: If anyone has any advice for good places in Jersey City or Hoboken to live, let me know or shoot me a PM. Being near the PATH and not in a sketchy area are our main concerns. trip9 fucked around with this message at 15:19 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 2, 2014 14:54
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It's probably going to be hard for you to find something for less than 2k a month that isn't very small/a shithole and still within a decent commute of Manhattan. If you're able to do it, start looking now, and you need to physically go up there and spend some time looking. Basically do everything you can to avoid needing a broker or you're going to be out several thousand once everything is said and done. That said, they're assholes and you should really consider continuing to look if you think you can swing it. If they can't afford you an extra few thousand to make sure you're comfortable (never mind being closer to something respectable in the market), then they're probably going to treat you like poo poo when you actually start the job. That and it will make it harder to look for something better if you're actually working. Have you expended every resource when it comes to job hunting? Have you checked the good resources like SO Careers? There are often numerous NY-based C# shops listed on there. Addendum: And if you are going to take the offer, KEEP LOOKING FOR WORK. Apply to anything that seems up your alley. You can always go tell them to go gently caress themselves if you get a better offer between now and when you move.
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Jun 2, 2014 16:16
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I would definitely email them back to at least discuss the stupidly long period they're hanging over your head for relocation fees. All I'm going to say is if they think a programmer is only worth $75K in NYC, they're going to find other ways to gently caress you over. I know you're in a tight bind but gently caress those guys.
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Jun 2, 2014 17:11
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Strong Sauce posted:But they offer $5k relocation that you have to pay back if you leave before 2 years and an additional $2.5k more that you only payback if you leave under 1 year. How does that even work? I mean why didn't they just say we will give you $2.5K for >1year service and we can offer $5k more if you stay past 2 years. The idea of a relocation fee is that he's going to need the money up-front to be able to move. Getting it later doesn't help him do that. quote:Mniot mentions that your next company will just pay it off. That seems like a big assumption to make. Do you enjoy hidden costs when you buy something? Do you think companies enjoy that any more? Just bring it up when discussing salary, it's not a hidden cost then. And things like that happen and shouldn't be a big deal at a decent employer. quote:Accepting that money is almost like accepting debt. You can't really know what will happen in 2 years and to have it hanging over your head would really suck. Well, it does suck. I'm sure it isn't a coincidence that an offer which most people here seem to consider seriously low-balled has strings attached that make quitting early annoying. Because the risk of low-balling is obviously that the employee realizes he has better options quickly and is out of the door in a heartbeat. That said taking a lovely option for a while can be OK if it brings you to the point where you want to be in your career. In your case, that seems to be from <random place> to NYC, which does sound like it'll open opportunities later. Just remember to keep advancing and looking around.
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Jun 2, 2014 17:27
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Strong Sauce posted:I would definitely email them back to at least discuss the stupidly long period they're hanging over your head for relocation fees. "gently caress them" is the greatest of all protips. Also, money DOES loving matter. Keep looking. If they're cheapfucks and want to hold money over your head instead of compensating you back for the money you make them, gently caress Them. (And their bullshit)
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Jun 2, 2014 18:19
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Skuto posted:That said taking a lovely option for a while can be OK if it brings you to the point where you want to be in your career. In your case, that seems to be from <random place> to NYC, which does sound like it'll open opportunities later. Just remember to keep advancing and looking around. This is probably the most accurate description of where I'm at right now. My main priority was getting to NYC with a job that can allow us to live close enough to the city for my wife to attend grad school. While this offer may seem sub-par to others, given the circumstances it meets my needs at this time. The way I look at it, the worst case is that it gets us over to NYC, if it really blows than I can just look for a new job, and being local it will be easier than job hunting remotely. As much as everyone seems to think it would be a piece of cake for me to get a baller $100k job there, I think that's definitely happy path, and there's just as much of a chance of me not getting a job, or getting a job with the same or worse salary/benefits in the time I have before her school starts. Accepting this job was a compromise, but one that I'm OK with for right now.
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Jun 2, 2014 18:37
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Good luck, I hope it works out for you, but I say it is a bad idea to go the route, "I'll just look for another job while I'm totally miserable in my current one" If you're going to be miserable, at least do it not having the weight of money hanging around you (e.g Not getting PAID or owing people money).
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Jun 2, 2014 18:47
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Speaking of NYC, I just got an offer at the only place I have interviewed so far (mostly just from being unable to take time off). The company is great but I thought from how easy the interview was (~4 coding/algorithm questions, 1 db schema design question, and a couple "how WOULD you implement this?" type questions), they weren't going to give a great offer. Today I had a 5 minute phone convo, not really a negotiation. They pressured me to give a number first, so eventually I just told them 95k. Small pause, then an "ok, I'll talk it over with the team." They call 20 minutes later offering 100k. sw8. It's roughly their average salary on Glassdoor, but given that I'm 2 years out of school and it would be a >40% raise for me I'm pretty psyched.
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Jun 2, 2014 22:25
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trip9 posted:This is probably the most accurate description of where I'm at right now. My main priority was getting to NYC with a job that can allow us to live close enough to the city for my wife to attend grad school. While this offer may seem sub-par to others, given the circumstances it meets my needs at this time. The way I look at it, the worst case is that it gets us over to NYC, if it really blows than I can just look for a new job, and being local it will be easier than job hunting remotely. As long as you go in with this attitude, I think you're making the right choice. Once you're in the area it becomes much easier to duck out of the office for an interview. And if you stick around past the magic 1-year mark and add a couple good keywords to your resume you jump up a lot in desirability. Keep looking after accepting, though. Maybe apply to Pie Colony's new place.
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Jun 3, 2014 02:21
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Pie Colony posted:Speaking of NYC, I just got an offer at the only place I have interviewed so far (mostly just from being unable to take time off). The company is great but I thought from how easy the interview was (~4 coding/algorithm questions, 1 db schema design question, and a couple "how WOULD you implement this?" type questions), they weren't going to give a great offer. Congrats, that's awesome. Let me know if you like it in 6 months or so and if you're hiring!
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Jun 3, 2014 03:24
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down with slavery posted:Yes, the idea of holding a "career" where you get raises that will compete with what you can get shopping around is long gone. They'd rather pay you poo poo for as long as possible and get their moneys worth than invest in to you long term. This should go in the OP, holy poo poo.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:28
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jiggerypokery posted:This should go in the OP, holy poo poo.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:34
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9 AM Monday, bitches!  Which is to say, I've just about accepted a developer apprentice position. It's a compensated part-time position during the summer, after which I will transition into full-time (with matching benefits and salary bump) to help advise the students in the fall class. My responsibilities as I understand them will be to contribute to the company's curriculum (learn stuff), work on internal projects (use stuff), and advise students (teach stuff). They said that since I have more experience than most people who start in the position, I'd be a good fit, and I agree with that assessment, so I'm not so worried about ending up incompetent or something. It sounds like a great job for me and they're interested in me joining up, so I thought, no reason not to accept, right? I'm reasonably confident about it. I'm a little worried about the "learn stuff" part in terms of structure, so I'll have to figure that part out a bit more. Other than that, though, 
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Jun 3, 2014 19:43
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All right. Close the thread. Pollyanna is also now employed. Congrats.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:51
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She also works within walking distance of my workplace  lol
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Jun 3, 2014 21:18
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Congrats!gently caress them posted:She also works within walking distance of my workplace  Just kidding, we love you 2banks and Pollyanna.  edit: So wait, where did you get the job at? Some kind of college? edit2: \/\/\/ meant Pollyanna. Cicero fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 21:22
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County clerk of court. Kinda fell into the job given the prior job had me as a (Sub)contractor doing similar work for a state level case management system. Kind of a ridiculous palace of a courthouse but it's a great gig.
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Jun 3, 2014 21:34
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"Walking distance" means something rather different in Jacksonville.Cicero posted:So wait, where did you get the job at? Some kind of college? At an accelerator. The kind of company that advises startups and entrepreneurs and helps train them. My specific job as I understand it is basically an apprenticeship - part learning, part working. The accelerator also does classes for local students to get development experience and education, and I'm expected to help out on that in the fall (IIRC). That's what I meant by classes. I expect to be a full-time employee by that time - around when benefits and insurance kick in. I'll try and keep an eye out for anything I don't quite understand in the contract when I sign it.
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Jun 3, 2014 22:49
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 I've actually managed to get some companies interested in potentially giving me a shot at my first junior dev position, one of which is MPC London (a huge Visual Effects place), along with a couple of companies that recruiters sent me off to. I'm absolutely making GBS threads myself.I've got Cracking the Coding Interview on its way already, in the vain hope that I might be able to slightly learn something from that in time to help me not gently caress up horrendously. Surprise T Rex fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 13:53
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Surprise T Rex posted:
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Jun 4, 2014 14:07
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I don't know what the hell is up with today specifically, but I also got an interview offer at Double Negative, another huge visual effects house in London (though only for a runner position, so bleh.), and a third recruiter calling me up. I think I might be dreaming? CTCI can't arrive soon enough.
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Jun 4, 2014 18:18
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Is there a proper protocol for approaching a company you interviewed with in the past, to see if they're still hiring and would consider you again?
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Jun 5, 2014 18:30
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Zero The Hero posted:Is there a proper protocol for approaching a company you interviewed with in the past, to see if they're still hiring and would consider you again? Ask the recruiter you spoke to last time politely if they're still looking for X. If they're no longer with the company, I suppose you could just reapply.
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Jun 5, 2014 18:44
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So I see in the OP that they suggest interviewing for positions the semester before you graduate, but my question is does the same hold true for internships/co-ops? My program requires a semester of internship/co-op to graduate (it's an associate degree program, but surprisingly focused compared to most programming two-year degrees I've seen) and I am planning on fulfilling that requirement in my last semester, which will be Spring 2015. My understanding of the school's expectation is that you would interview for internships and co-ops the semester before you do them. The school does have placement assistance, but from what I understand from the instructor in charge of the program, there are rarely enough positions for every student, and he recommends outside internships if possible. Should I be looking for positions now, or should I wait until the start of the fall semester to start seriously hunting? Most of the positions I've seen that come up don't list a specified start time they're looking for, but I also don't want to go in and interview for a position that won't start for another six months. Also, (midwest region specifically) is there much of a stigma against programmers with only an associate degree? I'd like to finish a bachelor's once I have steady work (and hopefully tuition reimbursement), but if experience and a decent github will be more effective at getting me better positions, then it's not such an urgent need to find and stay somewhere that'll pay for a bachelor's.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:21
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down with slavery posted:Yes, the idea of holding a "career" where you get raises that will compete with what you can get shopping around is long gone. They'd rather pay you poo poo for as long as possible and get their moneys worth than invest in to you long term. As a counterpoint, I'm making over double my (already reasonable) starting salary, without ever asking for or negotiating a raise, and without any change in job description/title.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:24
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Zhentar posted:As a counterpoint, I'm making over double my (already reasonable) starting salary, without ever asking for or negotiating a raise, and without any change in job description/title. You are likely making less than you could be.
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Jun 5, 2014 19:33
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Zhentar posted:As a counterpoint, I'm making over double my (already reasonable) starting salary, without ever asking for or negotiating a raise, and without any change in job description/title.
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Jun 5, 2014 21:12
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Daaang, how high do salaries go in this field?
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Jun 6, 2014 03:14
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Doghouse posted:Daaang, how high do salaries go in this field? I've been offered 120k before as a senior dev, which isn't uncommon or very high for the NYC area. Of course some companies pay a lot more than others. Basically, being a developer is awesome.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:06
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See, I hear things like this...Tunga posted:I used to think like this. Then I quit and went somewhere else and six months later I'm earning 70% more than at the old place. And I wonder if maybe they're true. But then they're followed by things like this... Ithaqua posted:I've been offered 120k before as a senior dev, which isn't uncommon or very high for the NYC area. Of course some companies pay a lot more than others. Which makes me doubt it. I'd need something around $200k in NYC just to break even after considering cost of living.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:15
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Zhentar posted:See, I hear things like this... To be fair, I live in New Jersey, and the company that offered me that was a NJ company. NJ is expensive compared to the rest of the country outside of a few places, but it's still a lot cheaper than NYC.
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Jun 6, 2014 05:26
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How do you "graduate" to serious programming? I have a B.Sc. in computer engineering and have worked python/django web dev crap for 2.5 years. Web dev is awful and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm looking for a new gig, but I don't really have a lot of experience doing any kind of actual programming. I've not really had any success getting through the phone screens for such roles. Should I be doing some open source or something? How do I "break out"?
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Jun 6, 2014 06:04
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Doghouse posted:Daaang, how high do salaries go in this field? It's hard to nail this down, since it varies a lot by location and specialty, and as you move up the ladder your compensation moves away from salary and towards bonus and equity. My benchmark for a senior dev in the bay area is $200k, although it can certainly go higher if you have the right skills and good timing. I know some people making double that, but at that point you're getting paid more for proven domain expertise and technical leadership than for programming per se.
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Jun 6, 2014 07:03
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Zhentar posted:See, I hear things like this...
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Jun 6, 2014 09:30
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Zhentar posted:Which makes me doubt it. I'd need something around $200k in NYC just to break even after considering cost of living. Reconsider this. At the levels of salary we're talking about, a straight cost of living conversion doesn't work because the whole of your salary isn't going towards living expenses. A dollar saved in NYC is the same as a dollar saved in bumfuck nowhere. Further, with the globalization of retail (Amazon), the differences are even smaller. What really changes is a) cost of food, b) cost of entertainment (dining, bars, movies), c) cost of renting/buying, d) changes in state tax laws, e) insurances. When we were calculating out what a real comparison for cost of living was for us, we took our current numbers for those and calculated them specifically for that category. Suddenly, the high cost of living salary was a lot more attractive. (Further, if you account for things like not necessarily having to drive in a place like NYC... your car insurance will probably lower, or you might just go with a car share which is huge savings.) When my fiance moved from a very high cost of living area to a fairly low one, after calculating out everything, even with a pay raise it was actually a pretty significant pay cut. But he also lost a ton of equity, so that had to do with it.
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