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After reading about how RJ organized his notes, it seems like a wiki with C&P instead of links. Add a bunch of custom functions to populate fields from tables such as power levels etc, and it probably would have saved a bunch of time his assistents were researching things.
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May 25, 2014 17:00
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McNerd posted:Well, we can certainly agree there. I do have some fun laughing at his gender commentary but for the most part I try to ignore it or I wouldn't be reading. Popcorn lit or not, it's perfectly fine to react to what the author actually put to paper. When you set aside the hyperbolic fantasy standby of the epic struggle between good and evil, the basic idea behind the series is "Men walk like THIS, women walk like this," end age, smooth some skirts, repeat as necessary. It's kinda hard to ignore. But as already mentioned, at least he didn't beat his readers over the head with too much information.
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May 26, 2014 11:33
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Book Thirteen finished. Onto the home stretch now. I definitely prefer Sanderson's writing style. The text is a lot brisker, with less obsessions over the minutiae of people's clothing. He still occasionally tortures a metaphor ("he was a tough as a hundred year old oak tree that still had axes in it") and the Taraboner accent, it do be as cringingly awful as before I do think. Also Siuan's constant fish metaphors. More than Sanderson's better pace, books 12 and 13 completely outstrip the rest of the series in terms of sheer holy poo poo moments. The Seanchan attack, hardass-Egwene, the three-tiered dream fight, Jaim loving Farstrider. My favourite scene is Olver winning Snakes and Foxes - it's a subtle bit of ta'vereen-ing, but feels bigger and more important, like reality genuinely is warping around them and coming unravelled. The bubbles of evil just felt goofy, and I wish more people actually seemed worried about living in the literal End of Days, but the whole Aelfinn arc had such a great mythic feel. Mat and Perrin are finally becoming the heroes of legend that they need to be. I have a new respect for the scale of Jordan's planning - Perrin's discussion with Noal is the first thing that Egwene dreams, ELEVEN books previously. Is there a list of all the visions/prophecies/ter'angeal induced realities and how they relate to the series? There are some that I'm sure have come true (Egwene and Nynaeve's Accepted tests) but I can't remember enough of the detail to see how it all relates. And Verin owns. So very much.
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Jun 1, 2014 11:21
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Strom Cuzewon posted:
You are wrong and should feel bad. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. Even if that opinion is wrong.
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Jun 1, 2014 15:32
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the JJ posted:You are wrong and should feel bad. Sanderson never wrote the phrase "the die had been cast, if not yet thrown"
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Jun 1, 2014 20:47
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Strom Cuzewon posted:More than Sanderson's better pace, books 12 and 13 completely outstrip the rest of the series in terms of sheer holy poo poo moments. That's because Jordan had spent so much time setting all of the dominos up, and in Knife of Dreams he gave them a little push. Man what a bunch of incredible payoffs we got, though 
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Jun 1, 2014 21:46
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Sanderson never wrote the phrase "the die had been cast, if not yet thrown" The tempest telegraphed the tempest of tempest tempest. Send medical aid.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:32
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Strom Cuzewon posted:Sanderson never wrote the phrase "the die had been cast, if not yet thrown" I must've blocked that one out over the years. Good lord that is terrible. Sanderson does a servicable patch job, but homie really needs to print out a list of synonyms for "tempest" and "sword" and tack them up in his eyeline while writing and never look away from them for more than 30 seconds or so.
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Jun 4, 2014 15:06
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I dunno about patch job because apparently 98%+ of the actual words in the last 3 books were his, which means he wrote like 20-25% of Wheel of Time. Based on notes, sure, but he had to extrapolate and interpolate drat near everything. Which is loving amazing.
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Jun 4, 2014 15:11
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It's done. The series is finished. I didn't leave the house on Sunday, but I finished it. What the gently caress was the ending? That was nonsensical bollocks. I'll back up to what I liked. The battle in the book, the actual Tarmon Gai'don, is fantastic. It's not stunning writing, but having travelled with these characters for so long it was crushing to see them all cut down like that. Jordan seemed to favour quantity over depth with his minor characters, but it still pays-off well - Bashere, Rhuarc, Doesine, Congar, these hit me just as hard as the major deaths. And those major character deaths were brutal - everyone got great final scenes, enough for me to overlook the wobbly organisation of the battle, or the literal conga-line of heroic sacrifices into Demandred. I can't help feel that it was all somewhat unnecessary - the battle was never for anything, but from a character perspective I loved every second of it. Especially Mat. And Perrin. And Andros. Christ, couldn't we have had Andros and Pevarrin three books earlier? But then we get to the ACTUAL last battle, Rand v Shaitan, the fight the whole series has been building up to. And we get a freshman essay on freewill and the nature of evil. Satan can't die because men have to choose not to be evil. Not for any transcendent moral reason, but because the world Rand spins from the pattern is boring and goofy. I am genuinely angry at having read that. "the evil was in men's hearts all along" is a pretty dumb twist, but it's even worse when your opponent is literally Satan. If Shai'tan has no actual power, then what's the True Power all about? What are bubbles of evil? It's nonsense. There's sod all in the previous books about actually choosing good vs evil. There's no struggle. Not ever. People are good, people are evil. If one day you decide to be evil then that's it. You're stuck. Trapped by Satan's magic-hand in your brain, forcing you to keep on being evil. The Dark One is a conscious, deliberate, and corrupting influence on the world. He's Evil, not evil. That's how the entire series works, and then we suddenly swerve into theodicy. And Rand's solution to this dilemma - he pulls him out the pattern. Evil can't be killed, that would be bad. But evil can be torn from existence, thrown outside of reality. Somehow that's acceptable. (I actually like the twist on the way the seals were used creatively, after all the build up on how the kept Shai'tan in his prison. I was expecting Rand to climb IN with him and then seal the bore, so the two would be trapped in some yin-yang situation. That would actually give some justification for people having to choose good or evil, Rand or The Dark One. ) I'm not even touching the epilogue. Rand is now as powerful as The Creator. And alive. Somehow. Willie Tomg posted:I must've blocked that one out over the years. Good lord that is terrible. He also keeps using Jordan's bit about Myyrdraal "not knowing it's dead til morning". That was a great phrase the first time I read it. The twentieth, less so. While we're here, lets take a look at Jordan's talents with names. One Power. True Power. True Source. These are different. Mesaana. Masema. Noal. Noam. Subsequent chapters. There are two Damodreds and a Demandred. Sheriam and Shemerin have a conversation. Baldhere and Balvere don't, which is convenient. Bashere might. Barstere definitely doesn't.
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Jun 4, 2014 19:00
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Strom Cuzewon posted:It's done. The series is finished. I didn't leave the house on Sunday, but I finished it. I have a number of issues with Sanderson's work, but as far as the ending goes, I find myself wondering if what RJ intended was then filtered through Sanderson's background as a Conservative, deeply religious Mormon.
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Jun 5, 2014 04:15
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I'm a little torn on the battle with Shai'tan. No doubt it could have been handled better, and my initial reaction was a lot like Storm Cuzewon's. At the same time though, just as you say, there's a major theme throughout the series to the effect that evil doesn't stop with the literal monsters and mass murderers; we all have our weakness and shortsightedness and it all hurts humanity and unintentionally serves the Dark One. The evil of the Whitecloaks and the Seanchan was never totally distinct from Shai'tan: he fed it and guided it and loved it. Even the Forsaken were just tiny people motivated by petty concerns and given a big stick. Equating human imperfection with Satan isn't the direction I expected things to go; frankly it's a little trite (although largely that's because I think it's a pretty orthodox Christian view) but I think it's at least coherent. In any case though, the final battle against evil had to somehow resolve this theme. Storm Cuzewon posted:or the literal conga-line of heroic sacrifices into Demandred. Funny you mention this because I'm rereading AMoL right now and just noticed something nice. Demandred got to steal Rand's name in the history books after all  He's the fire-spouting "Dragon" that the various Knights of the Round Table go on little quests to confront. (If anyone does not know what I'm talking about then click here and then go reread the whole series, you'll thank me. Edit: Not a complete list, there are some pretty obvious omissions).
McNerd fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 15:17
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McNerd posted:Funny you mention this because I'm rereading AMoL right now and just noticed something nice. Demandred got to steal Rand's name in the history books after all Gawain and Lancelot, at any rate. It's one of the clear signs that Brandon "gets it".
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Jun 5, 2014 15:38
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api call girl posted:Gawain and Lancelot, at any rate. It's one of the clear signs that Brandon "gets it". Don't forget Galahad the Pure! Edit: Also, can anyone fill me in on where Logain falls in all of this? I can't place him in the mythology, but at the end he's the one who finds the Grail and doesn't take it (Sangreal=Sa'angreal, specifically Demandred's, a staff with a chalice on it). McNerd fucked around with this message at 15:55 on Jun 5, 2014 |
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Jun 5, 2014 15:46
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The Lord Bude posted:I have a number of issues with Sanderson's work, but as far as the ending goes, I find myself wondering if what RJ intended was then filtered through Sanderson's background as a Conservative, deeply religious Mormon. I highly doubt that. Sanderson himself is an avid fan of the Wheel of Time series, and he's not so conservative in his own works.
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Jun 6, 2014 02:42
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Rand surviving the last battle by switching bodies was so out there and not foreshadowed at all that it was a legit deus ex machina. I really hated that part the most. Either introduce some reason why someone who isn't the evil satan character can swap bodies with people or don't do it.
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Jun 6, 2014 13:55
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The part I was most upset about was Lan surviving. The setup for his death was perfect, stretching all the way back to Rand's sword lessons in The Eye of the World and Lan's final advice. The setup, the fight, the deathblow, everything was perfect. And then he had to ruin it by having Lan survive and removing all the impact from Sheathing the Sword. Also, that Sea Folk chick "helping him die" by hiding some clothes and gold where he could find them after the Last Battle was just the absolute worst cop-out bullshit and I hate it.
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Jun 6, 2014 14:13
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Khizan posted:The part I was most upset about was Lan surviving. The setup for his death was perfect, stretching all the way back to Rand's sword lessons in The Eye of the World and Lan's final advice. The setup, the fight, the deathblow, everything was perfect. And then he had to ruin it by having Lan survive and removing all the impact from Sheathing the Sword. These two are my main complaints. Rand surviving was idiotic, if obvious. (We're not reading GRRM here) Lan was basically on a deathwish for over half of the books and easily survives.
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Jun 6, 2014 15:14
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I guess I'm the only one that enjoyed Rand's surviving? Just goes to show the Pattern has a sense of humor after all. Not every prophecy has to be dire and serious business, sometimes they're a little silly. And sometimes the Creator doesn't just poo poo on you for eternity. Alivia might have found a more substantial way to contribute to the process but, whatever. Incidentally, the epilogue was primarily written by RJ so it's pretty certain that this was always the plan, for what it's worth.
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Jun 6, 2014 15:30
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Nitrousoxide posted:Rand surviving the last battle by switching bodies was so out there and not foreshadowed at all that it was a legit deus ex machina. I really hated that part the most. Either introduce some reason why someone who isn't the evil satan character can swap bodies with people or don't do it. Phone posting, so I can't find the quote right now, but the swap is foreshadowed in Eye of the World in one of Rand's dreams. The one with all the mirrors. edit: Robert Jordon posted:Rand turned about in one spot, staring. Staring at his own image thrown back at him a thousandfold. Ten thousandfold. Above was blackness, and blackness below, but all around him stood mirrors, mirrors set at every angle, mirrors as far as he could see, all showing him, crouched and turning, staring wide-eyed and frightened. Guiness13 fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 16:00
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Odette posted:I highly doubt that. Sanderson himself is an avid fan of the Wheel of Time series, and he's not so conservative in his own works. There's also the excerpt from Jordan's notes a few pages back:  Which somehow makes it even more inane. Especially as literally everyone is dragged to Tarmon Gai'don by prophecy, which circumvents free will just as much as Rand zapping all over the place and shouting "ffs people work together". Also "notes on books two through 6"
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Jun 6, 2014 16:16
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That's a *very* early draft/note of the ending though, note the early (80ies?) name of Shai'tan. RJ was very pulpy with his drafts apparently, not really laying on the special sauce until the final drafts (there's an example of this with the prologue bit with the farmer and the last book in one of the blogs leading up to the release). But yeah, I never thought he had anything particularly special planned for the ending, and fantasy literature went quite a long way since when he started writing this stuff (Phantasy Star IV did a variant on the ending during the 90ies after all  ).Noted, no one ever dies from Sheathing the Sword  (Yeah he should totally have bit it there).Another thing laying the groundwork for body-swapping at the end was all the Soul-pulling and stuffing Shai'tan did with Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear etc, so we already knew that was possible. The Sword flaws were also foreshadowed pretty well (and all the other things basically pointing out how he had to die to live blabla), so I'm not entirely miffed at that part. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Jun 7, 2014 |
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Jun 7, 2014 13:35
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Yeah, I thought that part was projected pretty clearly, to the point where it was almost a disappointment when it all worked out the way I expected.
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Jun 7, 2014 14:50
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It would have been a bit more oh-and-ah worthy if the series had been done at like 3 or 6 books, back in the 90ies. Instead it's way more about "the journey" than the destination, which I'm also fine with (but not everyone likes that, obviously).
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Jun 8, 2014 08:51
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My ideal ending for Lan would have had Lan killing Demandred and dying in the process. In dying, he'd end up bound to the Horn of Valere, which means he would come back when they blew the Horn later in the Last Battle and get a chance to say his goodbyes.
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Jun 8, 2014 09:04
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You'd think odds were he was already a member. Not that many other characters around during the final battle carrying a "I'm a Total Bad rear end Hero  " rep card like him (no, not even out of our main cast of characters and *ta'verens*).Dude could star as the main character in any pulpy Conan-like story and would be a borderline gary stu. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 10:53 on Jun 8, 2014 |
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Jun 8, 2014 10:51
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Khizan posted:My ideal ending for Lan would have had Lan killing Demandred and dying in the process. In dying, he'd end up bound to the Horn of Valere, which means he would come back when they blew the Horn later in the Last Battle and get a chance to say his goodbyes. Seeing Jain alongside Birgette and co was awesome. I would totally have been okay with a high-camp ending where every dead character from Tarmon Gai'Don - Egwene, Lan, Bashere - and even the ones from before like Verin and Tylin, came back when the horn was blown and kicked the Dark Ones arse.
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Jun 8, 2014 17:05
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Nitrousoxide posted:Rand surviving the last battle by switching bodies was so out there and not foreshadowed at all that it was a legit deus ex machina. I really hated that part the most. Either introduce some reason why someone who isn't the evil satan character can swap bodies with people or don't do it. It was foreshadowed almost to the point of beating you over the head with it. I don't think there's a single book in the series that doesn't have at least one trippy scene or vision that points to the ending. And it was easy, since RJ said numerous times that the denouement was something he'd had written or outlined since the beginning.
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Jun 9, 2014 08:33
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Alright, so. I started the Wheel of Time series way back when I was in 7th grade. At that time, book 11 had not been written yet. My reading teacher and I had frequently had long discussions about literature, including Tolkien, Roger Zelazny, Neil Gaiman, Frank Herbert, and Cormac McCarthy. She recommended the series to me, having shortly before introduced her husband to them, and did me the immense favor of not only lending me the early books but later going ahead and giving me all the ones currently out. In short, she was awesome. She was very partial to Nynaeve and Egwene, I remember. I was always a fan of Mat and Thom, whom we both agreed was the best badass ever. Anyway, backstory over, because of Robert Jordan's death I was unwilling to continue reading the books after his death, because muh author bias. Eventually however, I did read The Gathering Storm and The Towers of Midnight, and surprisingly I highly enjoyed them. But life soon got complicated, and I wasn't able to get around to reading the final book until literally yesterday, a year and a half after I read the last two. (I devoted the entirety of yesterday to the book, started it at around 10 and finished at around 12). So, my thoughts. Book was awesome. Book was so awesome. But then I got to the ending. Ending is...not poo poo. It is not garbage. But it did not satisfy me. At first I thought that this was simply the usual sorrow of reaching the end of a great book. But then I remembered some of the other books in the series that I had read. The one that immediately springs to mind, either The Gathering Storm or Towers of Midnight, when Rand stands poised to destroy the world, the madness consuming him, and breaks on through with the realization that he was reborn to make it better and comes to terms with who he is. THAT was a fantastic ending. The final shot of the light breaking through the clouds atop Dragonmount was amazing. I felt nothing but positive waves toward that ending. But this ending was so unsatisfying. The last fifty or so pages are kind of bland, considering the world is saved, major characters have fought, bled, and died, and LITERALLY THE ENTIRE SERIES HAS BEEN BUILDING UP TO THIS. And it just ends with Rand in Moridin's body, without any kind of channeling, not ta'veren, yet apparently still able to magic, because I don't know, he's just so innately connected to the Pattern after his ordeal that he can do that? I didn't get that, but I don't care. That shot of him riding into the fourth age was crap. I would have preferred that he actually died. I would have preferred that the last shot was him meeting up with Mat, leaning up against a wall, spear tucked into his shoulder, and Perrin, arms folded across his hairy, beefy, perfectly sculpted, rippling, sweat clinging, wolf chest opposite of him, and together the three of them ride off to either a peaceful life or more adventures. Either of those two would have softened this for me. And who was that grey haired woman supposed to be? And that part where Rand pulls the Dark One into reality and finds it this small powerless thing. That could have been something amazing. But instead it's...there. He shoves him back into the outer void and seals the Bore properly this time. And things wrapped up both hastily and badly. Cadsuane sort of bullied into the Amyrlin? Nynaeve not finding out? The remaining Forsaken being "defeated" that easily? Mashadar just kind of being...there. I have at least one more complaint but I can't remember it. It's just a mediocre ending to both a series and a novel where you had tons of poo poo just going all over the place. Egwene being a crystal nuke, discovering the opposite of balefire. Perrin's dream-real world duel with Slayer. Mat's strategy war with Demandred. Hell, that literal MULTIPLE FINAL BOSS FIGHTS against Demandred. He goes through the gauntlet of Gawyn, Galad, Logain, and Lan to prove what an insane bad rear end he is and how Rand is still better. Unrelated to the above, but the Snakes and Foxes are basically space aliens.
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Jun 12, 2014 01:15
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But at least Rand didn't do some bullshit like bring every single dead good guy character back to life by weaving them back into the Pattern or some poo poo like that. Can you imagine how pissed off people would be?
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Jun 12, 2014 01:19
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Apparently the whole "alternative realities" part between Rand and the DO was entirely Sandersons invention, as was Androls part in the Black Tower. I'm guessing a lot of Demandred's stuff was Sanderson as well, RJ was never one to focus overly much on the forsaken so anything beyond a "Doesn't get to face Rand. He shows up on the battlefield and is a pain until overwhelmed/killed"-style note would surprise me. The epilogue I'm pretty sure was a (more or less unfinished) draft from RJ though, that Sanderson didn't want to modify, so it came across as just kinda... there.
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Jun 16, 2014 20:55
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Yeah that all matches what I remember hearing. Androl was all Sanderson. Honestly I hated him but I can respect the point that Sanderson couldn't just quit introducing characters and taking risks, and a weak channeler inside the Black Tower was a good choice. I think RJ would've given Demandred some significant screentime, although I agree he probably didn't write any of the actual scenes. He built him up for a long time, and this is still less than say Moghedien, Lanfear, or probably even Asmodean got.
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Jun 16, 2014 21:37
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Apologies for bumping an old thread, but I've been slogging through the series once again and trying to dig up all the details I can, like figuring out what the hell Nakomi is. One fact that I've been able to discern is that at some point after AMOL, Rand DOES return to the world as The Dragon. He must've gotten Aviendha preggers here, and was around for 10 years or so. Probably picked up by others, but I've been wondering what the hell happens post-Tarmon Gaidon and just stumbled across this realization. EDIT: My soul is brown.
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Jul 7, 2014 07:33
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I'm not sure if any of that necessarily follows. All 3 of Rand's wives know where he is, he need not return to the world himself. Though I agree that from here it looks like the world's new worst-kept secret since at least Cadsuane and Alivia already know and Nynaeve's already on to it. So maybe all this just gives Rand a head start before the "Who's Rand Galt" posters start going up.
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Jul 7, 2014 16:53
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Well, I'm gathering it from Towers of Midnight, chapter 49, when Aviendha sees the vision in the glass columns through her daughter Padra's eyes. The first thing of note is that that Padra and her siblings (quadruplets) were most likely fathered by Rand in his new body, as her brother Alarch "took more after their wetlander side" since he has dark hair. This could not have been via Rand's original body: his mother Tigraine was blond and his father Janduin was presumably a redhead (like the vast majority of Aiel), since Rand himself has inherited red hair. Both these genes would also be recessive towards darker shades, so original-Rand couldn't have had wetlander "dark hair" genes hiding in him to pass onto Alarch. His new body (which belonged to Moridin most recently) has black hair, so that's most likely the source of the children's conception. The second is the timing. Even supposing ALL the fighting was done immediately after the Bore was sealed and Padra was conceived soon after (so that she's roughly 16 years old, the scene takes place 17 years after Tarmon Gai'don), it would be obvious to the Aiel that Aviendha must've gotten pregnant after Rand's death rather than before, since that'd be the only possible timeline for the conception. Rand was stuck near the Bore battling the Dark One, while outside something like two months passed. If Aviendha claimed that her children (who the Aiel do identify as Children of the Dragon) were conceived before the Last Battle, this would mean an 11-month pregnancy, minimum. This is not something the Aiel would overlook, particularly since the Wise Ones use the One Power to check the health of fetuses. It therefore becomes the case that at some point, the Aiel must realize that Rand is still alive and kicking and impregnating their women. I misconstrued some of the other timing scenarios, so I'll have to retract my idea that Rand publicly outed himself to the Aiel. Still, they should be able to figure it out on their own at least.
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Jul 8, 2014 04:28
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I wouldn't read too much into gene dominance in a fantasy setting.
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Jul 8, 2014 09:38
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ShadowCatboy posted:Well, I'm gathering it from Towers of Midnight, chapter 49, when Aviendha sees the vision in the glass columns through her daughter Padra's eyes. Regardless, they choose to treat the vision as though they can avert it.
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Jul 8, 2014 13:08
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Neurosis posted:I wouldn't read too much into gene dominance in a fantasy setting. The seed is strong!
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Jul 8, 2014 13:45
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Neurosis posted:I wouldn't read too much into gene dominance in a fantasy setting. Nihilarian posted:Let me just cut right here. I believe that Rhuarc is alive in Aviendha's vision, but he dies in the last book. That means that the vision doesn't mean anything, they've already stopped it from happening. Even if we ignore the genetics behind it, the line specifically said "Alarch took more after his wetlander side, and had dark hair," which strongly indicates that the father was dark-haired rather than a redhead. Whoever authored the line certainly must've been thinking it. In any case, Rand must return to father those kids anyway. Min saw it in one of her visions. I certainly think that Aviendha getting pregnant by the Dragon, after Tarmon Gai'don, would raise a few eyebrows as to the status of his death.
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Jul 8, 2014 15:31
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Yeah, but...Rand is a reality warper now. gently caress visions.
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Jul 8, 2014 18:42
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