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Dreylad posted:Yeah, a bunch of the current leading Conservatives as young Conservatives at university sided with Reagan and Thatcher in condemning Mandela and supporting the South African apartheid government even though Mulroney and Clark opposed apartheid. That was part of the growing divide amongst the Conservative Party in the 80s that would lead to the Reform Party split. It's also worth pointing out that Irwin Cotler was on Mandela's legal team to get him freed. Which is why Justin Trudeau gave up his seat at the funeral so Cotler could go.
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May 31, 2014 17:51
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JawKnee posted:That is a strange point to make, since it still treats a portion of the population as thoroughly 'other', unless I'm misreading how you've related their argument. I don't now how else you could treat a population that has their own legal treaties with the state and are legally seperate nations. Unless you believe in "integration".
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May 31, 2014 17:57
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David Corbett posted:Uh, you're not seriously trying to draw out a comparison between Omar Khadr and Nelson Mandela, are you? It's pretty clearly a joke duder.
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May 31, 2014 18:39
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PT6A posted:He didn't really need to be, as he wasn't brainwashed in the first place, and gave up violence on his own. It seems like you want to have it both ways with Khadr: either he was a brainwashed kid who isn't at all responsible for his actions (fighting alongside Al Qaeda, let's say, just to avoid another derail), in which case he's still brainwashed and dangerous if we don't de-program/rehabilitate him, or he knew what he was doing and thus still represents a danger. Which is it? The truth is likely somewhere in between these two assumptions -- Khadr was brought into the fold of a sort of people who pushed a certain worldview and a certain set of facts onto him and, having the under-developed mind of a 11-12 year old (at the time he was brought into afpak), Khadr may or may not have made a conscious decision join their fight. The origin, history, affiliation and motivation of the group of insurgents that he was found with isn't quite clear from anything I've read (other than they were certainly insurgents against the local warlord, and likely against the American Military), and you could certainly make the case that Khadr himself had no knowledge of the group's ambitions beyond opposing the local US-affiliated warlord as well as the American invasion and occupation of the country. What I've been getting at, between this post and my previous one about the known motivations for terrorism, is that it's pretty reckless to assume, before any psychiatrist can meet with him and produce an opinion, that Khadr is under some sort of Orwellian programming that will direct him towards violence against innocents for the rest of his life. Like I said earlier, Arabs in the Middle-East have very real and very serious grievances against the US (and, in Afghanistan especially, against the Russians) for very real and very serious crimes that were committed and still are being committed across the region. In the Middle-East, where religion is extremely powerful, these grievances take on a religious component and it becomes extremely simple for our elites, who are very much invested in those crimes, to paint simple blowback as irreconcilable and violent religious craziness in order to divert public attitudes away from opposition to criminal foreign policy. If you can convince any random person on the street that terrorism is not much more than revenge for explicit and grotesque criminal activity in the region, their instinctual response to the question of how to stop terrorism is to simply stop committing crimes and provide reparations for them -- that must be avoided at all costs. Young Khadr may have been presented with a very legitimate depiction of the US as this criminal and violent militaristic state that supports terrible dictators, enacts sanctions that result in hundreds of thousands of children starving to death (then sends its secretary of state to tell the press that it was "worth it." How's that for having zero regard for human life?), unconditionally supports the most belligerent and violent state in the region (Israel) and perpetrates coups against governments that don't accede to the interests of American concentrations of capital. With only this picture in mind, it's not hard to imagine how an otherwise normal but impressionable 11 year old might choose to take up arms. Heavy neutrino fucked around with this message at 20:11 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 20:03
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PT6A posted:Khadr was fighting alongside a group that specifically targeted civilians on numerous occasions, and was fighting for fundamental human rights to be taken away from people. It's never been proven to any reasonable legal standard that Khadr did anything wrong, so he is innocent of whatever you're claiming that he did. All you're left with is the argument that he hasn't been "de-programed" and poses a threat to society, which is no different from imprisoning him for thoughtcrime. Any chance of rehabilitating him completely was thrown out the window when people like you decided that arbitrarily robbing a child of fundamental human rights is fine, as long as they're Muslim. Get hosed you authoritarian piece of poo poo.
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May 31, 2014 20:33
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Whiskey Sours posted:It's never been proven to any reasonable legal standard that Khadr did anything wrong, so he is innocent of whatever you're claiming that he did. All you're left with is the argument that he hasn't been "de-programed" and poses a threat to society, which is no different from imprisoning him for thoughtcrime. Any chance of rehabilitating him completely was thrown out the window when people like you decided that arbitrarily robbing a child of fundamental human rights is fine, as long as they're Muslim. He was fighting with Al Qaeda, and presumably on some level he agreed with their ideology. I want to make there's no hint of sympathy of Al Qaeda, fundamentalist Islam, or violence in his character before he's released. The people who are oppressed by fundamentalist Islam are very much victims, and we should help them, but until we can purge their brainwashing, we must regard them as possibly dangerous enemies. The idea of a society based on fundamentalist religion is fundamentally at odds with our own civilization, and it's time we actually address that elephant in the room instead of pretending the choice to be a fuckin' nut is a harmless personal decision. Let me guess: you think the Christian "apostate" in Sudan should be hanged because, hey, it's their culture and who are we to criticize them? I hate this "progressive" disease that turns reasonable people into apologists for lovely despots and lunatics. EDIT: And just so you don't think I'm biased only against Islam, I also think that Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories should be removed, in their entirety and by whatever degree of force is necessary. Their brand of bullshit is every bit as bad and dangerous, and we shouldn't put up with it either. PT6A fucked around with this message at 20:43 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 20:38
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I'm not sure that Omar Khadr is actually in a position to change Canadian society to become that thing you said. An insanely famous and conspicuous crippled blind dude could not effectively fight for change even if he wanted to. edit: Further, imprisoning someone who has not been convicted of any crime for what he may or may not believe is pretty hosed up, and not like, in line with the western liberal democracy you claim to be advocating for. actually an argument could be made that keeping him imprisoned is more harmful to the cause of fighting fundamentalist Islam because it shows a great concrete example of the west acting like giant shitheads and imprisoning and torturing a child for over a decade. jsoh fucked around with this message at 20:49 on May 31, 2014 |
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May 31, 2014 20:45
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PT6A posted:He was fighting with Al Qaeda, This has only ever been proven in a kangaroo court. Assuming he was, he was a child soldier and the rules are different. Get hosed. PT6A posted:and presumably on some level he agreed with their ideology. Presumably. Clearly the highest legal standard. Get hosed. PT6A posted:I want to make there's no hint of sympathy of Al Qaeda, fundamentalist Islam, or violence in his character before he's released. The people who are oppressed by fundamentalist Islam are very much victims, and we should help them, but until we can purge their brainwashing, we must regard them as possibly dangerous enemies. Like I said, thoughtcrime. Get hosed. PT6A posted:The idea of a society based on fundamentalist religion is fundamentally at odds with our own civilization, and it's time we actually address that elephant in the room instead of pretending the choice to be a fuckin' nut is a harmless personal decision. I'm much more worried about fundamentalist Christians taking away my rights than I am about being blown up by terrorists. Apparently you disagree. Get hosed. PT6A posted:Let me guess: you think the Christian "apostate" in Sudan should be hanged because, hey, it's their culture and who are we to criticize them? I hate this "progressive" disease that turns reasonable people into apologists for lovely despots and lunatics. The gently caress did this come from? Khadr has human rights, and was deprived of them. The Sudanese Christian you describe has human rights, and was deprived of them. Get hosed.
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May 31, 2014 20:54
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PT6A posted:He was fighting with Al Qaeda, and presumably on some level he agreed with their ideology. I want to make there's no hint of sympathy of Al Qaeda, fundamentalist Islam, or violence in his character before he's released. The people who are oppressed by fundamentalist Islam are very much victims, and we should help them, but until we can purge their brainwashing, we must regard them as possibly dangerous enemies. You know, a standard we apply to literally nobody else in the country. This is some scary poo poo you're posting, and if mental reprogramming was a thing, you should certainly qualify.
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May 31, 2014 21:19
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I see, in fundamentalist religion of all types, a serious threat to my way of life and the values I hold dear. I'm not going to stand here and watch while they gain power, aided and abetted by a bunch of weak-willed progressives who don't want to call it out for what it is, because god loving forbid they offend some fundamentalist piece of poo poo who would see everything they stand for taken away from them. When you don't call this fundamentalist horse poo poo, and those who practice it, out, you might as well be on their side.
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May 31, 2014 21:52
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hey, al qaeda dont hate the west because they are fundamentalist they hate the west because of the terrible poo poo the united states and europe have done to the people of the middle east. There is a strictly materialist reason for all of the things.
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May 31, 2014 22:00
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jsoh posted:hey, al qaeda dont hate the west because they are fundamentalist they hate the west because of the terrible poo poo the united states and europe have done to the people of the middle east. There is a strictly materialist reason for all of the things. And Hitler had good reason to be pissed at the Treaty of Versailles, too. Big loving whoop. I'd rather be Churchill than Chamberlain.
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May 31, 2014 22:06
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PT6A posted:I see, in fundamentalist religion of all types, a serious threat to my way of life and the values I hold dear. I'm not going to stand here and watch while they gain power, aided and abetted by a bunch of weak-willed progressives who don't want to call it out for what it is, because god loving forbid they offend some fundamentalist piece of poo poo who would see everything they stand for taken away from them.  Jesus loving christ you're dense. I simultaneously believe that fundamentalist religion is incompatible with secular liberal democracy, that those who pose an imminent threat or cause harm to others should face consequences through the legal system, AND that Omar Khadr's treatment was unacceptable, infringed on his human rights and that at most, he should have been treated as a child soldier. You're aligning yourself with neoconservatives and Christofascists who want to strip away my rights, just like they did to Khadr. Get hosed.
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May 31, 2014 22:13
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Whiskey Sours posted:
No, I've maintained consistently that I disagree, unequivocally, with everything that happened to Khadr prior to being in Canadian custody. No one deserves to be tortured. However, like with other child soldiers, we need to provide treatment so that he can become a productive, normal person without any fundamentalist tendencies. I don't think they take child soldiers in Africa, take away their gun, say "war is bad, m'kay?" and then send them on their way...
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May 31, 2014 22:18
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PT6A posted:we need to provide treatment so that he can become a productive, normal person
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May 31, 2014 22:22
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Are you seriously comparing the Middle-East today to inter-war Germany, which was by far the most advanced civilization in the world in terms of industrialization, the sciences and techonology? I mean, you should have told us from the start that you were just operating under base fear, paranoia and disregard for other people; it would have saved me a ton of time trying to correct your reckless and honestly dangerous assumptions. Now I know that you're just a frightened little sheepling, spooked to sleep by horror stories about people you've never met or even made an effort to learn about as told by people who have a vested interest in propagating them. (Nobody in the Middle-East gives a poo poo about your way of life, and I question what the values are that you hold dear when you call for the extinction of people that you have been taught to hate)
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May 31, 2014 22:23
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PT6A posted:I see, in fundamentalist religion of all types, a serious threat to my way of life and the values I hold dear. I'm not going to stand here and watch while they gain power, aided and abetted by a bunch of weak-willed progressives who don't want to call it out for what it is, because god loving forbid they offend some fundamentalist piece of poo poo who would see everything they stand for taken away from them. Congratulations, you feel exactly the same way as the fundamentalists feel about you. Neither viewpoint is particularly enlightened.
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May 31, 2014 22:25
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Can someone give me a link to an article where I can learn more about ISC (the Islamic State of Canada), PT6A seems to be implying they exist and I guess I must be out of date on my global politics?
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May 31, 2014 22:31
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DrProsek posted:Can someone give me a link to an article where I can learn more about ISC (the Islamic State of Canada), PT6A seems to be implying they exist and I guess I must be out of date on my global politics? Ezra Levant wrote a good summary of its leader a few months ago: quote:But to say the shahada is ... to join that faith by testifying that it’s the only true faith.
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May 31, 2014 22:40
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Stop biting down on PT6A's troll bait you simplistic fucks.
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May 31, 2014 22:50
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Stephen Harper attacks Vladimir Putin and 'evil' communism First it was leg warmers, now the 1980's are back with Cold War rhetoric!
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Jun 1, 2014 01:43
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Professor Shark posted:
quote:The evening's goal was to help raise money for Tribute to Liberty, which aims for a permanent memorial in Ottawa to communism's "hundreds of millions" of victims. FREEDOM! LIBERTY! We must pay tribute to our gods  It is she who safeguards the well-being of the patrician class. Only she can save us from the vile Political Whores fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 01:52
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PT6A posted:No, I've maintained consistently that I disagree, unequivocally, with everything that happened to Khadr prior to being in Canadian custody. No one deserves to be tortured. However, like with other child soldiers, we need to provide treatment so that he can become a productive, normal person without any fundamentalist tendencies. I don't think they take child soldiers in Africa, take away their gun, say "war is bad, m'kay?" and then send them on their way... You don't understand psychology very well do you? People respond to situational context way more than past experience. There is no need for "deprogramming" if he is treated like a normal Canadian kid in his everyday life he will act that way for the most part. He may need therapy for PTSD though. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 02:06
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I really wish Harper would shut the gently caress up about Russia and Ukraine. A simple statement about how the sovereignty of nations should be respected and blah blah blah. There is not a single loving thing that we as Canadians can do to affect the outcome of that situation. We have no real ball in that court other than NATO membership.
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Jun 1, 2014 02:09
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Rutibex posted:You don't understand psychology very well do you? People respond to situational context way more than past experience. There is no need for "deprogramming" if he is treated like a normal Canadian kid in his everyday life he will act that way for the most part. Could we at least establish that the process has occurred properly, in that case? If he's renounced his attachment to fundamentalism of his own volition, and we can verify it, I have no problem with setting him free without further de-brainwashing. Apparently treating him like a normal Canadian kid didn't work the first time, because he grew up part of his life here, and he still turned out to be working with Al Qaeda.
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Jun 1, 2014 02:10
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PT6A posted:Could we at least establish that the process has occurred properly, in that case? If he's renounced his attachment to fundamentalism of his own volition, and we can verify it, I have no problem with setting him free without further de-brainwashing. Apparently treating him like a normal Canadian kid didn't work the first time, because he grew up part of his life here, and he still turned out to be working with Al Qaeda. He grew up with parents that indoctrinated him into joining the Taliban, that's not a normal upbringing.
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Jun 1, 2014 02:15
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Make your own thread, PT6A, your talking-to-a-brick-wall derails are loving annoying.
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Jun 1, 2014 02:16
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PT6A posted:Could we at least establish that the process has occurred properly, in that case? If he's renounced his attachment to fundamentalism of his own volition, and we can verify it, I have no problem with setting him free without further de-brainwashing. Apparently treating him like a normal Canadian kid didn't work the first time, because he grew up part of his life here, and he still turned out to be working with Al Qaeda. I'm just going to go out on a limb here and assume he isn't going to be returned to his family. The best deprogramming they could give him would be to send him to a Canadian college with a nice stipend. Kafka Esq. posted:Stop biting down on PT6A's troll bait you simplistic fucks. Rutibex fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 02:20
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PT6A posted:Could we at least establish that the process has occurred properly, in that case? If he's renounced his attachment to fundamentalism of his own volition, and we can verify it, I have no problem with setting him free without further de-brainwashing. Apparently treating him like a normal Canadian kid didn't work the first time, because he grew up part of his life here, and he still turned out to be working with Al Qaeda. PT6A, I understand where you're coming from. The notion that Khadr should be rehabilitated into Canadian society before simply being released isn't that uncommon, and it's the same thought that exists for a lot of other people, most notably ordinary criminals--they should be rehabilitated instead of just let loose on the rest of us. I get that. The problem I have with applying this Omar Khadr's case is that there's very little proper evidence that Khadr actually bought into the fundamentalist worldview his family were espousing. First of all, as a child he didn't really have an option to just up and leave his family, which becomes less true as he gets older (though 15 is still pushing that a lot) but more true as his family moves to increasingly isolated places, culminating in a compound in the middle of rural Afghanistan, which I imagine would be a pretty hard place to just up and leave because you didn't like your family's attitudes. Second, we have evidence that Khadr wasn't really interested or involved in his family's activities. Just as an example, the initial CSIS report on Khadr after his interrogation was that he was uninterested in his father's terrorist activities and spent his time out playing instead of inside making bombs or listening to fundamentalist lectures. This directly contradicts the evidence Khadr confessed to at his trial, that he was intimately involved--evidence that he agreed to, never forget, after ten years of confinement and torture, and facing the prospect that if he did not admit to everything and take the plea bargain, he would spend the rest of his life in Guantanamo Bay. Personally, I'm much more likely to believe the initial report than the one obtained under torture and confessed to in order to avoid life in a hellish prison. If you're willing to take Khadr's word for it, in a legal document from last year he stated that the plea deal he signed was "constructed by the U.S. government in its entirety," and that he had signed it only to escape the "continued abuse and torture" at Guantanamo Bay. Third, rehabilitation and reintegration of child soldiers is very different from rehabilitation of adult criminals. Yes, it is a long and arduous process, taking years. But the three big things you need to successfully reintegrate former child soldiers, according to the World Bank's Conflict Prevention and Reconstruction Unit, are 1) a family or community support network (note that child soldiers with no families have been successfully reintegrated before, so Khadr's lovely family is no obstacle here); 2) psychological support, especially for post-traumatic stress disorder and incorporating processes that teach the former child soldier how to trust other people again, given their abusive treatment (I would include Khadr's family and terrorist family friends as abusive adults); and 3) access to educational and economic opportunities. Admittedly, these processes are designed for former soldiers who are still children, not ones who have spent 12 years growing up in prison, but I think the point still stands. It's much more about helping the former child soldier build a new life, rather than focusing on the lingering negative effects of their old one. Providing Khadr with aspects of an actual Canadian life and lifestyle that he was denied by his family's choices, like the chance to attend university, or talk about his experiences for monetary gain, would probably go a long way further towards re-socializing him into Canadian society, than keeping him in prison and trying to forcibly reeducate him to love Western democracy, when his experience of Western democracy since the age of 15 has been that it doesn't care about him, wants to keep hurting him, and that probably everyone involved would prefer if he had just died in Afghanistan and saved them all the headache, would. That being said, I'm curious how the process of teaching him to love Western democracy is supposed to work. vyelkin fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 09:50
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MA-Horus posted:I really wish Harper would shut the gently caress up about Russia and Ukraine. A simple statement about how the sovereignty of nations should be respected and blah blah blah. Much like their support for Israel, their belligerence towards Russia for the situation in Ukraine is mostly for internal consumption. There are a lot of Ukrainians here. There are worse things we could be doing than flinging poo poo at Russia over it.
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Jun 1, 2014 17:04
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ocrumsprug posted:Much like their support for Israel, their belligerence towards Russia for the situation in Ukraine is mostly for internal consumption. There are a lot of Ukrainians here. Yeah, Harper's roots are firmly in the Reform party, and its worth keeping in mind that the Reform movement was propelled by western grievances against Ottawa and the Quebec-Ontario power axis that dominated the country for most of our history. They really didn't have a foreign policy position prior to coming into power (beyond reflexively supporting America that is), which means they've sorta improvised as they've gone along. Wherever possible they seem happy to just pick fights or posture in whatever way they think will win them votes with the demographics they want to attract internally. The most interesting example of this is China. Reform supporters tended to hate China because they see it as an atheistic government that forces abortions on its citizens. Early on the Conservatives snubbed China and looked at it much in the way they look at Russia. However, as they've come to recognize that China is the key in their vain plans to make That's lead to some really weird stuff, like the Conservatives providing government money to commemorate Norman Bethune, a communist doctor who spent a couple years with Mao and the Chinese communists in the late 30s, where he died. He's still remembered in China as a popular foreign figure so the Conservatives were willing to help build a statue of him in his home town of Gravenhurst, ONT. As the government notes: quote:Dr. Bethune is most famous for his humanitarian actions during the last two years of his life in China where he served as a surgeon and teacher. Generations after his death, his story continues to be taught as an example of selfless humanitarianism to millions of Chinese students. Three delegations traveled from China to participate in today's official opening ceremonies. It's not every day Tony Clement praises a communist revolutionary, but the Conservatives understand that good business is where you find it. Helsing fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Jun 2, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 18:01
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One thing you have to give grudging praise to the new Conservatives for is their attentiveness to issues in minority communities.
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Jun 1, 2014 18:38
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The one thing I like is that the truly widely admired Canadians are all socialists or communists. I mean, Tommy Douglas won the award for best Canadian!
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Jun 1, 2014 22:58
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MA-Horus posted:I really wish Harper would shut the gently caress up about Russia and Ukraine. A simple statement about how the sovereignty of nations should be respected and blah blah blah. I'm gonna laugh until I puke when a Bear rumbles its way over the Parliament buildings.
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Jun 1, 2014 23:06
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Updates on the Assembly of First Nations and the First Nations Education Act. The AFN met last week and voted to reject the FN Education Act. They are however demanding that the attached funding ($2 billion) be given regardless, arguing that funding for First Nations education shouldn't be contingent on accepting the government of Canada bill (especially since a huge amount of First Nations communities don't like the bill). Minister Valcourt and AANDC disagree, saying: (http://www.cbc.ca/news/aboriginal/first-nations-education-bill-should-be-withdrawn-immediately-chiefs-demand-1.2655458)AANDC posted:"As we have said all along, this legislation will not proceed without the support of AFN, and we have been clear that we will not invest new money in an education system that does not serve the best interests of First Nations children; funding will only follow real education reforms," Clearly AANDC and Valcourt know whats best for First Nations children. Except in the past few days the federal government has announced that funding for children with special needs living on reserves will be cut, as will funding for Wapaskwa Virtual Collegiate (a Manitoba program that allows high school students to stay in their communities while still receiving credits, has been extremely successful in reducing drop out rates). I'm not sure whether these cuts have been long planned or are directly related to the rejection of the Education Act by the AFN. Either way the timing is interesting.
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Jun 1, 2014 23:43
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Ardent Communist posted:The one thing I like is that the truly widely admired Canadians are all socialists or communists. I mean, Tommy Douglas won the award for best Canadian! Don Cherry is no communist
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Jun 1, 2014 23:56
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Ardent Communist posted:The one thing I like is that the truly widely admired Canadians are all socialists or communists. I mean, Tommy Douglas won the award for best Canadian! And Trudeau Sr. won the award for Worst Canadian in the contest that ran concurrently! He got more votes than Paul Bernardo and Karla Homolka.
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Jun 2, 2014 00:33
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Number Two Stunna posted:Don Cherry is no communist Not one communist on this Wall of Heroes. 
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Jun 2, 2014 01:11
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Ardent Communist posted:The one thing I like is that the truly widely admired Canadians are all socialists or communists. I mean, Tommy Douglas won the award for best Canadian! Prior to the ingress of American political views in the past two decades, Canadians were largely proud and supportive of our socialist society. FYGM only got its lovely fingers in the pie in the late 1990's.
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Jun 2, 2014 01:27
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I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the hate speech and general insanity that passes for conservative talking points these days doesn't have something to do with the enthrallment of just enough of the population to keep Harper in power.
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Jun 2, 2014 05:10
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