|
What even is the ratio of people employed by small business vs. people employed by Coles, JB Hifi etc?
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:52 |
|
|
freebooter posted:What even is the ratio of people employed by small business vs. people employed by Coles, JB Hifi etc? 47% in 2010 according to this (but this is all forms of employment) http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/d3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/d291d673c4c5aab4ca257a330014dda2/$FILE/RBA%20Small%20Business%20An%20economic%20Overview%202012.pdf
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:16
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
Hypation posted:This is the typical left-wing bullshit that pisses me off. I don't understand why people expect that they can pick which 5 of the 7 days a week they get to work without trading anything for it. The people most affected by penalty rates are small business owners who are working alongside their employees in jobs that are largely indistinguishable from them (in addition to their work managing the business), earning money that is a lot more risky and not that much larger if it is actually larger at all. As a result most fold within 4 or 5 years. If you can't make money and pay penalty rates at the same time you should get the gently caress out of small business and make room for someone who isn't entirely incompetent.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:32
|
|
|
open24hours posted:If you can't make money and pay penalty rates at the same time you should get the gently caress out of small business and make room for someone who isn't entirely incompetent. Bad businesses are lazy and only want to compete on costs rather than compete on service or quality or experience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:44
|
|
|
If we're honest, most of us would accept that a bad business is a little like a bad father or a bad husband
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 01:47
|
|
|
Hypation posted:This is the typical left-wing bullshit that pisses me off. I don't understand why people expect that they can pick which 5 of the 7 days a week they get to work without trading anything for it. Coming hot off the Universities should run 24/7 argument. Either you have Asperger's, or you're a sentient AI. This is just absurd. Captain Pissweak posted:Because the Soviets ( Hypation is a secret communist  open24hours posted:If you can't make money and pay penalty rates at the same time you should get the gently caress out of small business and make room for someone who isn't entirely incompetent. Free Market, Bitches!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:10
|
|
) tried that and it didn't work.
|
Captain Pissweak posted:A true saint. No joke Canberra is boring as hell and his heart is in the right place.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:15
|
|
|
freebooter posted:What even is the ratio of people employed by small business vs. people employed by Coles, JB Hifi etc? More detailed stats are here: http://www.innovation.gov.au/smallbusiness/keyfacts/Documents/AustralianSmallBusinessKeyStatisticsAndAnalysis.pdf Big Steveo posted:And what about us tradies expected to work 6 or 7 days a week? The issue of working >5 days per week is distinct and separate from the issue of determining which days a week you work and whether you should be entitled be paid to choose which you want to work. Captain Pissweak posted:Hypation are you saying that we shouldn't be shackled to concepts like weekends and instead take two days off a week decided on an individual basis? The list of the stuff the Soviets tried and failed at, where others succeeded is too long to mention here. Instead of dwelling on that I would point out that the liberal virtue of individualism is not exactly aligned to communism so you'd think that a plan based on personal choice would fail in the USSR. Assuming a Saturday and Sunday weekend is a convenience. Whether you expect to work then depends on the nature of the job you do. For people who depend on other employees and other people at other firms to do their jobs, a standardised weekend makes sense. However for work where there is a need for a continuous operation throughout the year - eg to maximise plant utilisation; or where your job is not highly integrated into others' such as personal services, then employers should be able to negotiate with employees over which days they work. Sanguine posted:*sigh* No its not - the issues are separate. I agree the issue of unpaid overtime is not appropriate for the reasons you outline. Here the issue is actually getting paid for working, rather than getting paid more to pick which days you work. The choice of working a weekend or not is primarily a matter of convenience and fitting it in to a person's 'busy' weekly schedule. Sanguine posted:The 4th person to open a cafe on the same street in a small town shouldn't be supported by society saying they can bend the rules to make their stupid business idea successful. This café owner is actually supporting society by providing wages and experience to someone who would otherwise be on welfare (the employee or someone taking the job the employee would have got had the one they took not been available). The issue of bending the rules is irrelevant in this particular debate because it is a debate about what the rules should be. I also presume you meant to say the café owner is being supported by the employee - which is equally untrue because the employee is being paid. But here the societal benefits flowing from getting someone off welfare should be the primary concern for a government in making the rules. [Of course you could say that everyone could be paid more or less, so everyone is supporting someone] open24hours posted:If you can't make money and pay penalty rates at the same time you should get the gently caress out of small business and make room for someone who isn't entirely incompetent. LOL. The higher the minimum cost of running a business, the higher the risk of a business, the fewer the businesses and jobs there will be. Demanding ever higher minimum standards (in excess of CPI) just means fewer jobs. Hypation fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Jun 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:28
|
|
|
Hypation posted:LOL. The higher the minimum cost of running a business, the higher the risk of a business, the fewer the businesses and jobs there will be. Demanding ever higher minimum standards (in excess of CPI) just means fewer jobs. If only we could reduce the minimum wage to zero, we'd have infinite employment.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:31
|
|
|
You can't say the partnership between Palmer and Ricky Muir is one of convenience. I bet he didn't think his rich person car collection would one day become a political asset!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:33
|
|
|
open24hours posted:If only we could reduce the minimum wage to zero, we'd have infinite employment. We need to give those inefficient and wasteful businesses a chance!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:37
|
|
|
What happens when everyone wants to keep the standard week structure so that they can easily play with their kids or go drinking with friends or organise family gatherings or literally anything to do with socialising.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:38
|
|
|
Captain Pissweak posted:What happens when everyone wants to keep the standard week structure so that they can easily play with their kids or go drinking with friends or organise family gatherings or literally anything to do with socialising. Life isn't about socialising or having families you loving square, it's about the crushing misery of working every moment of your pathetic life.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:40
|
|
|
So Hypation, you support the abolition of public holidays and weekends entirely? There are some businesses that open on weekends and public holidays because they are essential for society to function. However most that do so open on those days because they benefit from being open on the days when everyone else is closed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:41
|
|
|
Captain Pissweak posted:What happens when everyone wants to keep the standard week structure so that they can easily play with their kids or go drinking with friends or organise family gatherings or literally anything to do with socialising. They will be crushed by the robot army.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:41
|
|
|
open24hours posted:If only we could reduce the minimum wage to zero, we'd have infinite employment. No you'd have unemployment at or near the frictional limit of the economy. ie c97% employment. But why would you do that? Minimum wage is critically important in ensuring that no one ever has an economic incentive to remain on welfare- that as well as to ensure that the government can discharge its duty to ensure that the minimum permissible levels of care and sustenance can be provided to the population by having the population itself provide them to the maximum degree.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:45
|
|
|
Captain Pissweak posted:What happens when everyone wants to keep the standard week structure so that they can easily play with their kids or go drinking with friends or organise family gatherings or literally anything to do with socialising. They should take a risk and start up a café
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:46
|
|
|
Hypation posted:then employers should be able to negotiate with employees over which days they work. They did, and it was decided that people who work on Saturdays and Sundays get more money. Penalty rates are enshrined in various industry awards, they're not covered by the national award. That means that they have been bargained for between the relevant industry and union. If employers have a problem with that, they shouldn't accept penalty rates in bargaining and risk the subsequent industrial action. I think you've forgotten that the majority of our "costs of business" are not due to the imposition of minimum standards by the state but rather are simply giving legal force to the result of collective bargaining. What you're saying is that you want to see the ability of workers to bargain and strike curtailed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:49
|
|
Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
|
Quantum Mechanic posted:
You're assuming Hypation doesn't want to see the ability of workers to bargain and strike curtailed.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:53
|
|
|
They should bargain on an individual basis, it's not dangerous for a person to negotiate with an entire business, that's an equal relationship! ~workchoiceeeeeeeeees~
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:54
|
|
|
Hypation posted:No you'd have unemployment at or near the frictional limit of the economy. ie c97% employment. No, the reason a minimum wage is important is because it makes it more difficult for employers to exploit their employees. There are many countries around the world that do not have weekend penalty rates, can you show that small businesses operating in those countries are more profitable because of it?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:55
|
|
|
Hypation posted:This is the typical left-wing bullshit that pisses me off. I don't understand why people expect that they can pick which 5 of the 7 days a week they get to work without trading anything for it. The people most affected by penalty rates are small business owners who are working alongside their employees in jobs that are largely indistinguishable from them (in addition to their work managing the business), earning money that is a lot more risky and not that much larger if it is actually larger at all. As a result most fold within 4 or 5 years. Most new business fail full stop (because the business owners are terrible or because things happen outside of their control) even in countries without penalty rates.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:56
|
|
|
Hypation posted:The issue of working >5 days per week is distinct and separate from the issue of determining which days a week you work and whether you should be entitled be paid to choose which you want to work. Pop quiz, hotshot. I'm just curious, for the sake of this discussion, where you're coming from with your perceptions of the people working these weekend hours. Out of all the casual retail and restaurant workers in Australia, about what percent do you believe fall into each of these categories, just as a vague guess: A - No control whatsoever, their employer says when they need or want them, and they better show up if they want to keep a job. B - Some control. They negotiate with their employer to request certain times they'd prefer. Sometimes they get what they want, sometimes they don't. C - All the control. Their boss "pays them to choose when they want to work", the employees just tell the employer when they want to work, and always get their way. ...I struggle to believe there's hardly anyone in category C at all, but you're acting like it's some big problem for the business owners, how many there are. Again I ask you, have you ever actually worked in retail? By the way, I don't remember seeing you around when I've been on one of my basic income rants. I'd be curious what your thoughts are on whether a basic income would be a good way to safely reduce the minimum wage, and encourage more entrepreneurs.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 02:59
|
|
|
Katharine Murphy is a welcome change from the usual political reporting we get saddled with.Guardian AU posted:11.26am AEST
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:02
|
|
|
Stop replying to IWC
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:05
|
|
|
Senor Tron posted:So Hypation, you support the abolition of public holidays and weekends entirely? No. I support the abolition of any requirement, requiring the closure of businesses on public holidays and weekends. If someone wants to work Mon to Fri then that person has paid for that choice by forgoing penalty rates. A clip of their wages is then effectively paid to those choose to work weekends. They Mon-to-Fri worker has effectively purchased the right to work Mon to Fri and have the weekend off. That is the trade-off. You want Mon to Fri then you get paid less. This is a good plan. It works for public holidays too. To further optimise the economy the value of the penalty rate should decrease - note: Value not just price. Ideally there should be a labour pool such that it is possible to find people willing to work weekends as readily as those willing to work weekdays. As a result there would be no trade-off to be compensated for and you can reapportion the penalty rate back into the base wages of everyone.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:06
|
|
|
Hypation posted:The issue of working >5 days per week is distinct and separate from the issue of determining which days a week you work and whether you should be entitled be paid to choose which you want to work. I'd agree with you if the employees did get 100% control over when they worked, but in reality very few people get to dictate the days they work. EDIT: Where the gently caress is the workforce utopia you live in anyway? Hypation posted:No. I support the abolition of any requirement, requiring the closure of businesses on public holidays and weekends. So basically penalty rates, but not called penalty rates? Rudager fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Jun 3, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
Flaky posted:Stop replying to IWC It's not iwc.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:09
|
|
|
Hypation posted:To further optimise the economy the value of the penalty rate should decrease - note: Value not just price. Ideally there should be a labour pool such that it is possible to find people willing to work weekends as readily as those willing to work weekdays. As a result there would be no trade-off to be compensated for and you can reapportion the penalty rate back into the base wages of everyone. Hey guys, the government abolished penalty rates so you're all getting a raise to make up for it! - A Business Owner.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:11
|
|
|
Hypation posted:If someone wants to work Mon to Fri then that person has paid for that choice by forgoing penalty rates. A clip of their wages is then effectively paid to those choose to work weekends. They Mon-to-Fri worker has effectively purchased the right to work Mon to Fri and have the weekend off. That is the trade-off. You want Mon to Fri then you get paid less. Just so I'm clear here, your point is "the system works"? Or are you suggesting we cut weekday pay in general to funnel towards the people who work weekends (and almost definitely still work weekdays too)?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:11
|
|
|
Hypation posted:Ideally there should be a labour pool such that it is possible to find people willing to work weekends as readily as those willing to work weekdays. As a result there would be no trade-off to be compensated for and you can reapportion the penalty rate back into the base wages of everyone. Guess what, this ideal labor pool of people magically dividing up their wants and preferences to provide a convenient consistent 7-day supply to business has already been engineered! Through SCIENCE! It's called paying more on weekends.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:15
|
|
|
Yeah I'm not following your argument. It reads like you're saying that people working Mon-Fri should get paid less than those who work weekends, but those who work weekends shouldn't earn more than those who work Mon-Fri?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:18
|
|
|
Here's my take on the whole weekend wages issue: http://thisisseriouscom.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/productivity-the-mantra/
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:22
|
|
|
Why do people like Hypnation forget that there was a time where his worker's utopia existed except people were miserable, could barely afford to live, died in droves or were permanently injured, were shot and killed for striking, etc. The special amazing place where businesses ruled the day has come and gone, and it was terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:26
|
|
|
cat doter posted:Why do people like Hypnation forget that there was a time where his worker's utopia existed except people were miserable, could barely afford to live, died in droves or were permanently injured, were shot and killed for striking, etc. The special amazing place where businesses ruled the day has come and gone, and it was terrible. For people like us. Not for business owners, like him.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:33
|
|
|
Reminder that Hypation is paid money to teach students about business.
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:41
|
|
|
Bifauxnen posted:Out of all the casual retail and restaurant workers in Australia, about what percent do you believe fall into each of these categories, By the way, I don't remember seeing you around when I've been on one of my basic income rants. I'd be curious what your thoughts are on whether a basic income would be a good way to safely reduce the minimum wage, and encourage more entrepreneurs. The only substantive power a retail worker has is the ability to quit and go somewhere else. Both sides - the worker and management know this. The extent of that power depends on the availability of other positions, the cost of training a new replacement as minimal as that may be, and the ability to fill the role. An employee who quits is a bad result for all concerned which is why employers want happy staff. (Surprisingly you might say) I am in favour of a basic income. It is a less complex and more efficient way of providing welfare. It comes with built in incentives to augment it and find work while the disincentives to work can be removed through 'measures'. It is automatically financed out of income tax rates, provided you change the rates. Arguably a parabolic tax curve is needed. One that is regressive at the low end to pay pack the basic income and then becomes progressive. The key issues are how large and what the new rates will be. A secondary consideration is what should happen to state payroll tax given that the wages bill will be lowered due to the basic income - arguably a federal payroll tax should administered as the employer is the primary beneficiary of lowered wages if a basic income was introduced. Simply increasing corporate income tax will not work due to cost shifting ability.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:42
|
|
Captain Pissweak posted:Just so I'm clear here, your point is "the system works"? I'm reading it as "weekend workers still get paid more than weekday workers, but everybody gets paid less than they do now."
|
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 09:52 |
|
|
Haters Objector posted:I'm reading it as "weekend workers still get paid more than weekday workers, but everybody gets paid less than they do now." But see this system is great because then people who work weekends will STILL get paid more than weekday workers, which means the restaurant lobby still has something to cry poor about in the papers and whinge until the government forcibly cuts rates across the board again, when people who work weekends will still get paid more...
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2014 03:55
|
|