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Quantum Mechanic
Apr 25, 2010

Just another fuckwit who thrives on fake moral outrage.
:derp:Waaaah the Christians are out to get me:derp:

lol abbottsgonnawin

Hypation posted:

The only substantive power a retail worker has is the ability to quit and go somewhere else.

No, the substantive power a retail worker has is the collective withholding of labour. That's what underpins our industrial relations system and is, in fact, why we have penalty rates.

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Synthbuttrange
May 6, 2007

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-03/volunteer-force-could-supplement-victoria-police-under-proposal/5496410

quote:

Victoria Police may introduce volunteer officers to "extend the effectiveness" of the force in times of serious budget constraints, according to a reform blue paper.

The paper, which indicates reforms to policing in the lead-up to 2025, proposes "a formal volunteer program for Victoria Police to supplement and support the activities of staff".

:stonk:

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die


lol at all this nonsense about penalty rates. The workers should cooperatively control the businesses that exploit their labour, you profit-stealing capitalist shills. The next time I read that an employer is doing society a service by employing people, I'll probably projectile vomit onto the moon.

I'm thinking I should get a badge that says "Ask me about the Means of Production" to go with my soy latte. Opinions, tia.

Hypation
Jul 11, 2013

The White Witch never knew what hit her.

Captain Pissweak posted:

Just so I'm clear here, your point is "the system works"?

Or are you suggesting we cut weekday pay in general to funnel towards the people who work weekends (and almost definitely still work weekdays too)?


The system works provided the penalty rate is the fair value of the choice not to work weekends and promotes the workforce flexibility needed to reduce the value of that choice to workers to near zero.


Senor Tron posted:

Yeah I'm not following your argument. It reads like you're saying that people working Mon-Fri should get paid less than those who work weekends, but those who work weekends shouldn't earn more than those who work Mon-Fri?

Currently as it stands, many people currently prefer to work Mon to Fri during the day. As a result the weekend workers should be paid more for working on weekends.

In the ideal case you would have a flexible pool of labour with some willing to work on all days of the week so there would be no need for penalty rates.


open24hours posted:

Hey guys, the government abolished penalty rates so you're all getting a raise to make up for it! - A Business Owner.

If you were the ACTU negotiating new awards and AWAs with no penalty rates is this not the trade you would make?


Edit:

Quantum Mechanic posted:

No, the substantive power a retail worker has is the collective withholding of labour. That's what underpins our industrial relations system and is, in fact, why we have penalty rates.

No. Retail workers do not have that power. Individual workers cannot dictate when their fellow workers will strike.

Hypation fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jun 3, 2014

adamantium|wang
Sep 14, 2003

Missing you
That undeclared $200,000 donation was Grundy and it may have dropped Loughnane into it:

quote:

Mystery Liberal donation: Reg Grundy gave $200,000 via secretive foundation
No donation disclosure form was lodged with the Australian Electoral Commission, even though it is required by law

Michael Safi
theguardian.com, Tuesday 3 June 2014 12.49 AEST



Australian television producer Reg Grundy has been confirmed as the source of a mysterious donation to a fundraiser linked to the Liberal party before the 2013 federal election.

Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) records show that Akira Investments Ltd, a company based in the French Riviera playground for the mega-rich, Monaco, gave $200,000 last financial year to the Free Enterprise Foundation (FEF), a Liberal and National party associated entity.

Regulatory authorities in Monaco told Fairfax Media they had no record of the company. Australian corporate registers also showed no trace. Akira also failed to lodge a political donation disclosure form with the AEC, as required by law.

But an investigation by blogger Stephen Murray found that Akira was once listed as the owner of a superyacht, Boedicia, known to belong to Grundy, the pioneering producer behind TV hits such as Neighbours, Wheel of Fortune and Sale of the Century.

Murray also discovered that the company behind a website showcasing Grundy’s wildlife photography is headquartered at the same Monaco address as Akira Investments.

On Tuesday, an Akira director, Jo Cullen-Cronshaw, confirmed to the ABC that Grundy was the source of the donation.

"I made enquiries of [federal director of the Liberal party] Mr Brian Loughnane and was advised by him that the best way to maintain [Grundy and his wife Joy’s] privacy would be to make the donation through the Free Enterprise Foundation,” Cullen-Cronshaw said in the statement.

"As they are extremely private individuals they always prefer that any donation they make, political or philanthropic, remains anonymous."

Loughnane has denied giving Grundy the instructions, saying all Liberal party fundraising complied with AEC requirements.


The Free Enterprise Foundation came under scrutiny at a recent Independent Commission Against Corruption (Icac) inquiry into Liberal party fundraising on the NSW central coast.

The inquiry heard evidence that donations from property developers, which have been illegal in NSW since 2009, were sent to the FEF to be “washed” before being passed on to the NSW Liberals.

The foundation’s trustee, Tony Bandle, denied accusations by counsel assisting the inquiry, Geoffrey Watson, SC, that the FEF was “just a way of funding the Liberal Party”.

A former Liberal fundraiser, Ray Carter, told the commission that the FEF was routinely used to channel property developer money to the party, allegedly with the blessings of senior Liberals. “Everyone knew about it,” Carter said.

He said that when he asked Paul Nicolaou, the former head of the NSW Liberals’ fundraising arm, the Millenium Forum, whether sending banned donations to the associated entity was legal, he was told: “That’s what the Free Enterprise was for”.

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Hypation posted:

(Surprisingly you might say) I am in favour of a basic income. It is a less complex and more efficient way of providing welfare.

Well this is good to hear, at least. I want to believe that more conservatives can eventually come around to agree, since it would shift the burden of welfare to be more distributed across the whole country. As opposed to putting the burden for people's living wage onto individual business owners, who may legitimately be doing it tough.

It would also simplify internet arguments, since telling people they should just go find a different job if they don't like X may actually become a feasible option to casually toss around.

open24hours
Jan 7, 2001

Hypation posted:

If you were the ACTU negotiating new awards and AWAs with no penalty rates is this not the trade you would make?

Absolutely not. If you give up benefits like that and you will never get them back.

Amethyst
Mar 28, 2004

I CANNOT HELP BUT MAKE THE DCSS THREAD A FETID SWAMP OF UNFUN POSTING
plz notice me trunk-senpai

Who would volunteer to be a cop

Drugs
Jul 16, 2010

I don't like people who take drugs. Customs agents, for example - Albert Einstein

Amethyst posted:

Who would volunteer to be a cop

The kind of people who shouldn't be cops

Gough Suppressant
Nov 14, 2008
Pretty late on it but I'll be hosed if I'm reading what I am reliably informed is page upon page of Hypation making GBS threads out of his mouth.

Abbott turning D-Day into a carbon tax stump speech actually makes sense.

At this point there is no-one who has the capacity to be appalled by Abbott's lack of tact who is not already so.

He can't piss anyone else off about it so what effect did it have? It got his "Australia is open for business" line into the press again. Having the claim repeated enough is an important part of getting people to believe it. At this point Abbott could go up to Thredbo and piss "Open For Business" in the snow at the memorial and it would be a good media move.

G-Spot Run
Jun 28, 2005
Exactly the sort of nutbar who shouldnt be one, even temporarily, and especially without expensive training and pay incentives

Freudian Slip
Mar 10, 2007

"I'm an archivist. I'm archiving."

Amethyst posted:

Who would volunteer to be a cop

The worst kind of people

E: Beaten with phonebooks and battons

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Haters Objector posted:

The kind of people who shouldn't be cops

Exactly

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die


Gough Suppressant posted:

Abbott turning D-Day into a carbon tax stump speech actually makes sense.

This happened?

What kind of crazy rhetorical acrobatics were involved in twisting D-Day into being about axing the carbon tax? :psyduck:

Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?

Endman posted:

This happened?

What kind of crazy rhetorical acrobatics were involved in twisting D-Day into being about axing the carbon tax? :psyduck:

yeah, Hitler was pushing like mad for a final solution to the carbon problem and was conquering Europe to enforce a carbon price.

Pidgin Englishman
Apr 30, 2007

If you shoot
you better hit your mark

Hypation posted:

No its not - the issues are separate.

I agree the issue of unpaid overtime is not appropriate for the reasons you outline. Here the issue is actually getting paid for working, rather than getting paid more to pick which days you work. The choice of working a weekend or not is primarily a matter of convenience and fitting it in to a person's 'busy' weekly schedule.


This café owner is actually supporting society by providing wages and experience to someone who would otherwise be on welfare (the employee or someone taking the job the employee would have got had the one they took not been available). The issue of bending the rules is irrelevant in this particular debate because it is a debate about what the rules should be. I also presume you meant to say the café owner is being supported by the employee - which is equally untrue because the employee is being paid. But here the societal benefits flowing from getting someone off welfare should be the primary concern for a government in making the rules.

[Of course you could say that everyone could be paid more or less, so everyone is supporting someone]

The issues of overtime and weekend work are separate, sure, but surely they stem from the same accepted norms - formalised as whatever form of law covers them. It's the same argument for public holidays as discussed.

I do agree that it is a matter of convenience, and as such you should be compensated for the inconvenience of working on the weekend. It doesn't have to do with your 'busy schedule' (you should still only be working so many hours), it's to do with the requested schedule impacting on your quality of life. Framing it as the employee 'picking which days to work' is somewhat naive, very few jobs (if any) give you the flexibility to go 'I think I'll work Saturday this week for the extra pay'. It's either accepted that someone needs to work on the weekend and it's a roster , or no one does.

As for the cafe owner being supported by the employee, no. If anything I agree that it is the other way around, the owner takes the risk and 'supports' the employee with wages. This is a fairly weaselly way of putting it though. In a small town there's only so many coffees to sell, my point is that the if you risk opening a business in a saturated market then you shouldn't be complaining that industrial rights are hamstringing you when it was a bad idea to start with. If the market is healthy then surely the extra demand on weekends covers the extra wages?


e: ugghhh, don't leave reply windows open :facepalm:

Hypation posted:

The system works provided the penalty rate is the fair value of the choice not to work weekends and promotes the workforce flexibility needed to reduce the value of that choice to workers to near zero.

Excuse my poor non-business tertiary education, but are you saying 'The system works if it eventually nullifies any extra pay for working weekends'? I realise it's coached as an open-market ideal about every day being the same, but that's not the society we live in. From what I'm reading you've written 'the system works if it overcomes anything of cultural value in order to make labor as predictable and manageable as possible for employers and the free market, gently caress everything else'.

Pidgin Englishman fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Jun 3, 2014

Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Endman posted:

This happened?

What kind of crazy rhetorical acrobatics were involved in twisting D-Day into being about axing the carbon tax? :psyduck:

Yup.

Senor Tron
May 26, 2006


Endman posted:

This happened?

What kind of crazy rhetorical acrobatics were involved in twisting D-Day into being about axing the carbon tax? :psyduck:


Goffer
Apr 4, 2007
"..."

Worked pretty well in the US https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WuRa1F37tc

Bifauxnen
Aug 12, 2010

Curses! Foiled again!


Endman posted:

This happened?

What kind of crazy rhetorical acrobatics were involved in twisting D-Day into being about axing the carbon tax? :psyduck:

It was more of a basic somersault than acrobatics. It was pretty much just:

I. Today's the anniversary of D-Day
II. Some completely unrelated stuff about carbon tax
III. I'm saying this to some other countries which are also remembering stuff about D-Day, thus in conclusion, I have proven they are totally connected, the end.

Then he increased the margins on the page and made the font really big and triple-spaced everything hoping the teacher would still give him full credit.

Endman
May 18, 2010

That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die



:suicide:

BlitzkriegOfColour
Aug 22, 2010

ewe2 posted:

He's an evil chicken, if he doesn't get human blood once a day he melts.

Van Badham has a good rant in the Guardian about the dumb pro-work for the dole arguments:


As usual, Abbott & Co try to resurrect God-King Howard evil recipe #128 in the hope that glory will cover them too. It's a loving cargo-cult. Meanwhile corporate interests rub their hands muttering "at last at last it begins".

It's anecdotal, and I'm in no way in favour of WFTD programmes, but I have a friend who suffered severe anxiety and depression, bordering on agoraphobia. Getting him to get on Centrelink, then Centrelink eventually putting him in a position chucking boxes out the back of a Salvos store, actually turned his life around a fair bit. He lost ~50 kilos, met a nice girl, did some courses at TAFE and now, with his new positive attitude, really wants to work (it's too bad he's got a gap of ten years on his resume and still suffers from a bit of social anxiety). In terms of getting him into work, it's not really great. But, in terms of helping him get well, it's doing a pretty good job.

Halo14
Sep 11, 2001

Thought it would be this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29XHh2rdVxk

Tokamak
Dec 22, 2004


I'm not convinced.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.
DE-FAULT *CLAP CLAP CLAP* DE-FAULT *CLAP CLAP CLAP*

quote:

Australia's emissions cut target triples overnight thanks to failure to repeal carbon tax

Date
June 3, 2014

26 reading now

Peter Hannam
Peter Hannam
Environment Editor, The Sydney Morning Herald

View more articles from Peter Hannam



Australia's greenhouse gas cut targets quietly tripled on Saturday night, from a 5 per cent cut by 2020 to a cut of more than 18 per cent.

The failure of the federal government to repeal the carbon price has triggered a far more ambitious emissions reduction target.

As of midnight May 31, the Clean Energy Act 2011 passed by the Gillard government sets a default target that is more than triple the previous 5 per cent goal.

Under the existing legislation, the government of the day was supposed to have decided on an emissions cap to enable the start of a carbon emissions market in 2015. Since no cap has been set, a default target is automatically generated.


This goal is based on a tally that is 38 million tonnes below the 2012-13 emissions level, shrinking each year by 12 million tonnes. In practise, since 2012-13 emissions were much less than expected, the resulting trajectory is also for a lower target by the end of the decade.

The default target is 475.8 million tonnes by 2019-20, equivalent to 18.8 per cent below 2000 levels, according to the Greens, who had their estimates confirmed by the Parliamentary Library.

Greens leader Christine Milne said the measure was inserted in the act to insure against ''a government like this refusing to set a cap''.

''It won't have realised because it never put its mind to the detail,'' Senator Milne said. ''By doing nothing more than we are already doing, we are getting to 18.8 [per cent] and if we put a bit of effort in, we can go even higher.''

A spokesman for Environment Minister, Greg Hunt, declined to confirm the government had overlooked the default.

''We have always said we will repeal the carbon tax - lock, stock and barrel,'' the spokesman said. ''We will cut emissions by 5 per cent from 2000 levels by 2020, and we'll do it without a carbon tax.''

The potential for a higher Australia target comes as the US prepares to unveil a much more aggressive climate policy of its own on Monday.

President Barack Obama is expected to unveil plans to slash emissions from existing power plants by 30 per cent of 2005 levels by 2030 – a move likely to add pressure for countries like Australia and China to lift their own objectives.

Andrew Macintosh, an associate professor at the Australian National University, said the cost of cutting emissions was falling. ''The economic cost of meeting the 5 per cent target is likely to be significantly lower than previously forecast,'' Professor Macintosh said.

While the government remains confident it can secure enough votes in the new Senate after July 1 to repeal the carbon price, uncertainties will fester so long as the current tax remains.

For instance, should the debate linger to September trade-exposed industries will be eligible for many free emissions permits, said John Connor, chief executive of the Climate Institute.

“Retailers are beside themselves that they may have to rebill people,” Mr Connor said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/c...l#ixzz33XysqF1T

The devils in the details, though Tony and his ilk never seem to read the things in the first place so the devils in the book I guess.

Sisgmund
Jan 31, 2006

Preferred leader of the libs:

Turnbull 31%
Abbott 18%
"Someone Else" 19%

...someone else! Someone else! Someone else! Someone else! Someone else!

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

Sisgmund posted:

Preferred leader of the libs:

Turnbull 31%
Abbott 18%
"Someone Else" 19%

...someone else! Someone else! Someone else! Someone else! Someone else!

I'M SOMEONE ELSE!

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.



Bread Liar


The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

If only all of life's problems could be solved by smoking a professor of ancient evil texts.



Bread Liar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYxkZ9jTvk

Quantum Mechanic
Apr 25, 2010

Just another fuckwit who thrives on fake moral outrage.
:derp:Waaaah the Christians are out to get me:derp:

lol abbottsgonnawin

Hypation posted:

The system works provided the penalty rate is the fair value of the choice not to work weekends and promotes the workforce flexibility needed to reduce the value of that choice to workers to near zero.

It is, or it wouldn't have been bargained~

Hypation posted:

No. Retail workers do not have that power. Individual workers cannot dictate when their fellow workers will strike.

It is a substantive power held by retail workers, and it is what underpins the current industrial system. Stop redefining the question to suit your bullshit needs. Retail and hospitality workers have penalty rates because they are something they value and have bargained for, up to and including being willing to strike for them. That is PRECISELY THE IDEAL THEORETICAL OUTCOME OF THE SYSTEM YOU DESIRE. Penalty rates are not simply being maintained by the cackling, greedy Sunday workers lording it over their weekday kind. They are and have been maintained by collective worker action.

I get the strong impression that what you are dancing around admitting here is that you do not want workers to have the right or ability to collectively bargain. When you say you want workers to bargain for penalty rates, you mean on an individual basis, going cap in hand to their boss every week and convincing them they're worth the 50% loading.

Anidav
Feb 25, 2010

ahhh fuck its the rats again

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/queensland-budget-2014-at-a-glance-20140603-zrvyd.html?rand=1401770026377 posted:

The key measures in the Queensland budget handed down on June 3, 2014.

Economy:

Budget deficit: $2.27 billion
2014-15 fiscal operating surplus: $188 million
Forecast growth: 3 per cent
Dwelling investment forecast growth: 9.5 per cent
Unemployment forecast: 6 per cent
Key revenue sources (taxation, GST and royalties) revised down by $1 billion
Asset sales

Aiming for $25 billion in asset sales and private sector investment to reduce the state's debt to $55 billion
Sales would reduce annual interest bill from $4 billion to $2.7 billion
$5.2 million allocated in 2014-15 for Strong Choices advertising plan
$8.6 billion of anticipated $33.6 billion sales to fund Strong Choices investment program, including road, rail, school and community fund and the BaT Tunnel
Pensions and concessions

The Queensland government will not replace the entire $54.2 million in federal budget cuts from the value of pensioner concessions.

Fifteen per cent cuts are being considered to these maximum annual concessions:

Electricity Rebate Scheme, currently $321
Pensioner Rate Subsidy Scheme, $200
SEQ Pensioner Water Subsidy Scheme, $120
Reticulated Natural Gas Rebate Scheme, $68
Translink Transport Concessions: 50 per cent discount to drop to 35 per cent.
Debt

Average debt per Queenslander is $16,209
Western Australia is just under $13,000 and New South Wales just under $9000
The average debt per person in other states is $8834
Natural disasters

Since 2010-11 have cost Queensland $9.3 billion
Cyclone Ita damage bill: $450 million
Natural gas production

Ramp up in LNG production expected to boost economic growth to 6 per cent in 2015-16, before settling to 4 per cent in 2016-17

Infrastructure

$49.1 million to fund early works on the Commonwealth Games Village
$2.5 million per year for four years to fund the independent Gas Fields Commission
Health

$255.2 million to the Lady Cilento Children's Hospital and Centre for Children's Health Research
$369.8 million to the Sunshine Coast Public University Hospital
Justice

$31.1 million over four years for the establishment of 15 Safe Night Out precincts across Queensland
Police

$109.4 million for additional police officers
$110 million for capital works, information technology and equipment
Key announcements

$406 million over five years to overhaul the child protection system
$62 million for drought assistance, including fodder and water subsidies, rent relief and mental health support programs
Family primary production concession extended to include non-lineal descendants.

Hypation
Jul 11, 2013

The White Witch never knew what hit her.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

I get the strong impression that what you are dancing around admitting here is that you do not want workers to have the right or ability to collectively bargain. When you say you want workers to bargain for penalty rates, you mean on an individual basis, going cap in hand to their boss every week and convincing them they're worth the 50% loading.

They should have the right to collectively bargain which means the ability to choose whether to accept a default agreement/award/whatever for that position / industry, collectively bargain for a different deal with that one employer or individually negotiate a contract. The choice of the option should be up to the employee.

hambeet
Sep 13, 2002

Tokamak posted:

I'm not convinced.

Iwc would've changed the topic to Tim flannery by now.

Fruity Gordo
Aug 5, 2013

Neurotic, Impotent Rage!
He's not IWC, check his rap sheet. He's such a pathetic weenie that he wants people to think he's IWC.

plumpy hole lever
Aug 8, 2003

♥ Anime is real ♥

adamantium|wang posted:

Clive drove to work again today



New avatar found

plumpy hole lever
Aug 8, 2003

♥ Anime is real ♥
I had a dream last night that I was on holidays with Clive except up close his skin is an amazing bronze tanned, and he was hitting up girly bars and trying to get me to come with him

Drugs
Jul 16, 2010

I don't like people who take drugs. Customs agents, for example - Albert Einstein
e: pee poo

Drugs fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 3, 2014

Hypation
Jul 11, 2013

The White Witch never knew what hit her.

Those On My Beet posted:

Iwc would've changed the topic to Tim flannery by now.

Have you not seen my posts on the Climate thread in D&D...

(a) Ripping into people for not understanding what science is - "where's the scientific proof" Umm, Dude, Proof exists in mathematics not science. "science is not consensus" - ah, well how are theories accepted then?

(b) Generally nuking arguments against anthropogenic climate change in favour of the scientific consensus;

(c) Suggesting climate policy and renewable energy (such as solar PV, Solar therm, distributed grids, generally not nuclear unless its Thorium MSR);

(d) Sometimes I can appear on the other side of the debate when someone raises a secondary effect argument that is not supported with a weight of evidence. Edit: These guys are more dangerous than the likes of Plimer because they take the focus off the main problem and give the 'do nothing' easy wins.


BTW - Tim Flannery got his budget cut and then the community gave it back to him, now what's that say about government funding priorities and policy outcomes?

Hypation fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jun 3, 2014

Hypation
Jul 11, 2013

The White Witch never knew what hit her.

Fruity Gordo posted:

He's not IWC, check his rap sheet. He's such a pathetic weenie that he wants people to think he's IWC.

I am not, nor have I ever been IWC. I never even claimed to be.

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plumpy hole lever
Aug 8, 2003

♥ Anime is real ♥
Denial is a sure sign of gilt

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