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Varys will get Tyrion out because Varys hasn't done anything this whole season except testify and feel bad. He won't watch another chill dude die; at some point, evasive pragmatism becomes resignation to the chaos. Or, drat, maybe loving Tywin will do it. He won't pardon him publicly, but he'll let Tyrion go to keep Jaime pliable. He can't afford to actually kill him (though his hateboner may blind him to that). Windfall posted:Ned was not the cause of his own death. This also serves as a really good summation of why Littlefinger is the reason Cat (and everyone else) is dead. This whole thing came from him, in a way that's hard to see when watching the episodes piecemeal. If anyone has a big, wrathful death coming to him, it's Petyr Baelish. I really hope it's Sansa that sends him on his merry way. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 06:22 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 06:19
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BETRAYAL AT KNIFEPOINT 
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Baelish is my favorite character at this point, because he flew so hilariously under the radar from everyone watching this show, yet he was instrumental (and often directly responsible) for the deaths of all of the major characters in the show.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:31
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"Don't leave me alone in this world." "Never." When Obie died, my heart looked like his head. gently caress.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:35
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I doubt Baelish played any part in the Red Wedding and killing his beloved Cat since he turned on the Lannisters right after it, going as far as killing Joffrey. That doesn't mean he won't catch any blame for it once Arya bumps into him in a few minutes and remembers who she saw him meeting with last.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:37
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Windfall posted:I doubt Baelish played any part in the Red Wedding and killing his beloved Cat since he turned on the Lannisters right after it, going as far as killing Joffrey. That doesn't mean he won't catch any blame for it once Arya bumps into him in a few minutes and remembers who she saw him meeting with last. So if Cat was all he ever wanted in this world who does he seek vengeance upon? Bolton and Frey? And does he have a perverted hardon for Sansa because shes all he has left of Cat?
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Jun 3, 2014 06:44
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So even accounting for GRRM "realism" or "justice" or whatever you call it, who can we use metatextual knowledge to reasonably assume is safe for a while? Characters who are sufficiently big deals and whose arcs have not in any way become anywhere close to finished so they are safe: Arya Dany Stannis Jon Bran Sansa Littlefinger Characters whose arcs could be considered finished but the way the show and press work are almost certainly not going away: Tyrion Jaime Brienne Cersei Theon/Reek Yara Characters the story needs whether they have arcs or not: Varys Jorah Sam Grey Worm apparently (ugh) Daaaaaaaario (maybe) So, who is not on any of those lists? Tywin The Hound Gendry (probably not dying though since what the gently caress man he's not even in this season) Davos Melisandre Probably any of those five are next up on the Get hosed list.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:45
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No More Heroes posted:And does he have a perverted hardon for Sansa because shes all he has left of Cat? Yes, equal parts "the daughter I should have had with Cat" and "a younger verson of Cat that's a bigger babe than she ever was"
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Jun 3, 2014 06:46
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precision posted:So even accounting for GRRM "realism" or "justice" or whatever you call it, who can we use metatextual knowledge to reasonably assume is safe for a while? -Ned Stark -Catlyn Stark -Rob Stark -King Geoffrey
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Jun 3, 2014 06:51
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Has any dead character had their "arc" finished before they died?
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Jun 3, 2014 06:54
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ironlung posted:Has any dead character had their "arc" finished before they died? Maester Luwin maybe? I'm still sad that he's dead. that guy was cool 
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Jun 3, 2014 06:56
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precision posted:Characters the story needs whether they have arcs or not: Why does the story need them?
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Jun 3, 2014 06:58
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the posted:-Ned Stark Rob and Joffrey's arcs were finished. Rob's was finished the moment he married for love, Joffrey's was finished when he was crowned king. It's not like anyone expected him to become anything other than a complete psychopath. Ned Stark's arc was finished before the show even started. You might be trying to say his story wasn't finished, but that's not the same thing. Ned didn't even have an arc. And since we're talking meta-text, there was every reason to believe Ned wouldn't last very long; people may have been swerved because he died SO soon, but casting Sean Bean meant he was never going to finish out the series at least. Catelyn? I don't think she really had an arc either.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:07
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Yeah there's no way they kill Tyrion off. If it happens in the book I hope HBO just tells GRRM to gently caress off or something because Dinklage is without question the best actor on this show by a landslide.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:10
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Can someone explain Oberyn's plan to me? He and the Dornish are apparently already convinced of the version of events he told Tyrion when first introduced. Let's say he took The Mountain down, crucified him, and finally badgered him into outright going "It was me who did it - but it was Tywin Lannister wot gave me the specific order to do so, in writing". What was the expected outcome? Tywin going "you got me dead to rights yer honor, guess I best go take The Black for my crimes of all my crimes"? Tywin's cronies doing the equivalent?
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Jun 3, 2014 07:11
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Joffrey's arc was "be as big a poo poo as possible to everyone until someone finally says 'gently caress it' and kills you".
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Jun 3, 2014 07:12
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Windfall posted:I doubt Baelish played any part in the Red Wedding and killing his beloved Cat since he turned on the Lannisters right after it, going as far as killing Joffrey. That doesn't mean he won't catch any blame for it once Arya bumps into him in a few minutes and remembers who she saw him meeting with last. He didn't plan it, and obviously would not have, but the fact that it happened is definitely on him. The whole war is. Every casualty is on him, Cat just happens to be the only one he might care about. I just wonder if he's willing to face that. precision posted:So even accounting for GRRM "realism" or "justice" or whatever you call it, who can we use metatextual knowledge to reasonably assume is safe for a while? I don't follow. None of the Lannister children have had a completed arc. Cersei has not come crashing down from her mighty place of insanity; Jaime has not been redeemed, and Tyrion has not stepped out of the shadow. Brienne hasn't completed her mission, and Theon has been in a pit longer than he ever was anywhere else. Yara didn't do anything yet. The story may need Varys, as the unseen force that keeps everything from falling apart, but why on earth does it need Grey Worm and Daario? Even Jorah and Sam don't have much going for them (where the hell is Jorah even gonna go?) The Hound is also somewhat incomplete, though that doesn't mean he can't die (please no). Gendry dying now wouldn't track (and no one knows who or where he is). I kinda hope he just stays gone; a Baratheon bastard is rapidly losing any purpose. Davos, Melisandre, and Tywin all do have possible deaths soon. Well, Davos OR Melisandre (or both in a trade), depending on which way Stannis breaks. Tywin is just too much of a force, Cersei, Jaime, Tommen, pretty much all of King's Landing character development is on hold until he clears out, and there's probably only one way that happens. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 07:13
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Bobo the Red posted:
Winterfell sure has been burning for a long time... oswald ownenstein posted:
Same with Varys who was last seen at the Purple Wedding. Oh wait he was at Tyrions trial my bad.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:22
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Maarak posted:Why does the story need them? Varys is a walking Deus Ex Machina. He's probably literally a God in human form for all I know. Jorah has served very little purpose and his sending-off serves absolutely no purpose if he just dies or is never seen again. Again, think metatextually. Same with Grey Worm. There would have been no introduction of his ~love story~ if he weren't going to be around for a little bit. Otherwise it's just literally wasting screen time when there is an army of zombies and poo poo. Dario hasn't really done anything yet but is a big enough deal to assume will eventually do something. Sam has "done things" but they've been blundering. There is absolutely no reason for him to be alive or dead at this point, yet a considerable amount of screentime has been devoted to him and to making sure we know that his wildling waifu and adopted son are still alive. This is television 101 here, he's not dying any time soon because there is an obvious place for him in the story.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:27
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precision posted:Varys is a walking Deus Ex Machina. He's probably literally a God in human form for all I know Guys I think I understand the mind of GRRM. The show is really about Littlefinger and Varys and the Game between them. They're like God and the Devil. Yin and Yang. Everyone else are just bit players!
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Jun 3, 2014 07:43
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precision posted:Same with Grey Worm. There would have been no introduction of his ~love story~ if he weren't going to be around for a little bit. Otherwise it's just literally wasting screen time when there is an army of zombies and poo poo. It's to give him some characterization and make it sadder when he catches an axe to the head the next time something interesting happens in his vicinity, which is to say not any time soon.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:56
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Xander77 posted:Can someone explain Oberyn's plan to me? He and the Dornish are apparently already convinced of the version of events he told Tyrion when first introduced.
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Jun 3, 2014 07:58
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Xander77 posted:Can someone explain Oberyn's plan to me? He and the Dornish are apparently already convinced of the version of events he told Tyrion when first introduced. This is assuming someone like Oberyn even had a plan beyond "make him admit the truth and then kill him". Someone capable of making coherent plans with logical conclusions tend to include steps like "kill the realm-reknowned murderer at your feet instead of playing with him". Oberyn wasn't only arrogant, he was about as self-absorbed as it comes. He didn't give a gently caress about Tyrion, didn't give a gently caress about the realm, or politics or anything. All he wanted at that moment was a confession from the Mountain as part of the justice he was seeking, so that's all he sought, consequences and aftermath be damned. That's someone else's problem. deadEd fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 07:59
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Vehementi posted:He wanted the confession to point to Tywin so he could proceed to dismantle them. Killing the proximate perpetrator is easy and not his ultimate goal.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:03
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Littlefinger's arc could reasonably be considered finished. He started the show proclaiming his loyalty to Caitlyn and has finally made good on it. Plus the way he sets the stage for Robin and Sansa comes off as almost bowing out. Sure he could scamper off and return to twirl his mustache some more in the future, but he's at a reasonable end.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:05
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kater posted:Littlefinger's arc could reasonably be considered finished. He started the show proclaiming his loyalty to Caitlyn and has finally made good on it. Plus the way he sets the stage for Robin and Sansa comes off as almost bowing out. Sure he could scamper off and return to twirl his mustache some more in the future, but he's at a reasonable end.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:06
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precision posted:Rob and Joffrey's arcs were finished. Rob's was finished the moment he married for love, Joffrey's was finished when he was crowned king. It's not like anyone expected him to become anything other than a complete psychopath. That's a little cynical. -Rob never even got to King's Landing or even fought against the main Lannister force -Joffrey was King from like Episode 4. That wasn't his Arc. His Arc should have been "fresh boy-king" to "king" -How is "Ward of the North becoming Hand of the King and managing everything that comes with it. Being the "good guy" and overthrowing the "bad guys" not an Arc?" The arc had only just started, but it's still an arc. -Catlyn - "find herself after losing her husband, search for her lost kids and groom her son to be king" sounds like an arc. Xander77 posted:Can someone explain Oberyn's plan to me? He and the Dornish are apparently already convinced of the version of events he told Tyrion when first introduced. Thinking about the real world, victims of crime want Justice. It's one thing to convince yourself, it's another to hear a killer say it.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:06
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JibbaJabbaJimmy posted:So how does Tyrion get out of the execution? His execution is the obvious thing so I think it's safe to assume its not going to happen right? Or maybe its a double GRMM fake-out? I recommend everyone watch this for an example of how to avoid an execution in medieval times with cunning planning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_(Blackadder) Grizzled Patriarch posted:Yeah there's no way they kill Tyrion off. If it happens in the book I hope HBO just tells GRRM to gently caress off or something because Dinklage is without question the best actor on this show by a landslide. Yeah stupid books, lets just change things because an actor is cool. Should have done the same for Sean Bean in Season 1. Also it's loving dumb that Gollum dies at the end of lord of the rings, gently caress Tolkien, he should have relented and had Sam keep him as a pet or something.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:14
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There is really only one thing I want to see for the season finale. And that is for Barristan to do some fighting. Motherfucker is the greatest knight to ever live and we don't see him fight once. Him dying before we get to see him fight would literally the most dispointing thing that GRRM has ever done.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:17
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Dolphin posted:Littlefinger's most important arc is his relationship with Varys, which hasn't concluded. I actually thought the scene where Littlefinger revealed what he had done to Ros was a pretty good final "chat" between the two of them, as it finally revealed fully to Varys how hosed in the head Littlefinger actually is. All their little smug wordplay was kind of thrown aside as Littlefinger just reveled in his cruelty, when Varys has never appeared malicious.... hell, even when he had the guy who castrated him delivered to him in a crate he appeared restrained and controlled.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:18
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Mr Beens posted:Yeah stupid books, lets just change things because an actor is cool. Should have done the same for Sean Bean in Season 1. Also it's loving dumb that Gollum dies at the end of lord of the rings, gently caress Tolkien, he should have relented and had Sam keep him as a pet or something. I mean, yeah totally. If it works. I don't get why nerds need their adaptations to be pure 1-1 interpretations of the source material. Peter Dinklage is awesome and gently caress GRRM if he kills off his character. I'd love it if the show runners kept a few characters around that died in the books and vice versa.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:18
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Mr Beens posted:Yeah stupid books, lets just change things because an actor is cool. Literally yes. Why the hell not? If the show can be better than the books then why not?
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Jun 3, 2014 08:20
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Shwqa posted:There is really only one thing I want to see for the season finale. And that is for Barristan to do some fighting. Motherfucker is the greatest knight to ever live and we don't see him fight once. Him dying before we get to see him fight would literally the most dispointing thing that GRRM has ever done.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:20
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xcore posted:That's a little cynical. I don't think you know what a character arc is. Rob's CHARACTER arc had nothing to do with the war and everything to do with the way he lived his life - concluded by him saying "gently caress common sense, I love this girl". Arc over. Joffrey having an arc is really a kindness on my part. He didn't have one at all. He was a mewling evil dick from start to finish and nothing suggested he would even have an arc. Ned, I don't know, maybe? I'd have to rewatch season 1 to see if it was really a character arc or if it was just "things happening". Catelyn, you also may have a point on, but it's a stretch since hardly any of it was taking hold and Robb dying killed a big chunk of what you're saying her arc would have been.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:24
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precision posted:So even accounting for GRRM "realism" or "justice" or whatever you call it, who can we use metatextual knowledge to reasonably assume is safe for a while? I wouldn't agree with all of this, but I've been applying some meta thinking to this as well, and I definitely agree that Dany, Bran, and at least one of the two Stark girls are probably safe for a while. Dany almost definitely because other than some season one mentions and causing Tywin to try to suck up to the Martells her whole story has had zero impact on anything. Likewise, Bran's story hasn't really gone anywhere yet so he probably won't die before something happens or else that was all a waste of time (unless Hodor or one of the Reeds become more important with his death). Sansa and Arya are in similar situations, but they're surrounded by people who, compared to Dany's and Bran's company, are relatively important, so their deaths could still catalyze something rather than just abort a plotline. Stannis is probably good too, really; thinking about it I'd put him closer to Dany than Sansa or Arya on the "probably not gonna die" list. Tyrion and Jon I'd say are maybe safe, but I could see them dying. Latter in particular; the Wall falling means the Wildlings and later the White Walkers will be coming down into Westeros, and that's huge. Others... Well I'm tired and have a headache so I'm going to stop rambling. Having trouble remembering some of my thoughts on this when I went over them with someone I know earlier today (or maybe yesterday, can't remember). But, yeah. While I think a metatextual analysis is valid, complete "arcs" aren't what you should go on for it.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:35
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I don't think Jon will be dying any time before the final season/final few episodes, if then. Same with Tyrion, to a lesser extent. I'm not saying the story will follow conventional fantasy happy ending tropes, but that if it follows even the most very basic of storytelling notions, Jon Snow has to live to see how it ends. He survived being shot full of arrows, and maybe he gets the Jaime treatment and loses a limb or something, but I very much doubt he'll bite it even if the Wall falls.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:51
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Shwqa posted:There is really only one thing I want to see for the season finale. And that is for Barristan to do some fighting. Motherfucker is the greatest knight to ever live and we don't see him fight once. Him dying before we get to see him fight would literally the most dispointing thing that GRRM has ever done. He killed that bug that time
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Jun 3, 2014 08:56
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Blazing Ownager posted:I kind of want the Night's Watch about to get overrun and that's when the huge-fuckoff-of-all-white-walker armies joins the party. Would make for an interesting.. change of situation. I like that idea, I hope it isn't a book spoiler because it actually makes a lot of sense. They keep on bringing up how outnumbered the Watch are. They also made a point in the last episode of having a discussion about locking the tunnel through the wall down, and ultimately decided to keep it open. Jon Snow was then put on watch on top of the wall, perfect place to see armies coming from both directions. I can see them about to be swarmed by the Wildling army, when they realise White Walkers are advancing on the other side of the wall. The Watch opens the tunnel and White Walkers come through and start loving up the Wildlings.
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Jun 3, 2014 08:58
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Senor Tron posted:I can see them about to be swarmed by the Wildling army, when they realise White Walkers are advancing on the other side of the wall. The Watch opens the tunnel and White Walkers come through and start loving up the Wildlings.
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Jun 3, 2014 09:00
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Accretionist posted:Literally yes. Why the hell not? If the show can be better than the books then why not? This is almost inconceivable in the mind of a book reader. One problem as a book reader is that you develop a very personal attachment to the story as it is told and to your interpretation of that story. In a film/tv adaption, the slightest digression from its source, from the the choice of actor to the minute technical details involved in transforming words on paper into flesh and blood individuals, is like stomping all over the connection a reader has already established with the story. For me, if I'm going to enjoy a film adaptation of a book I've read and enjoyed, I almost have to treat the book as a separate creature, if not forget it entirely. BubbleGoose fucked around with this message at 09:13 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 09:11
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BubbleGoose posted:This is almost inconceivable in the mind of a book reader. One problem as a book reader is that you develop a very personal attachment to the story as it is told and to your interpretation of that story. In a film/tv adaption, the slightest digression from its source, from the the choice of actor to the minute technical details involved in transforming words on paper into flesh and blood individuals, is like stomping all over the connection a reader has already established with the story. The film of American Psycho is immensely better than the book. Doubly so for Fight Club. Adaptations can surpass and transform their source material. If they're good, that should be their goal in the first place.
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Jun 3, 2014 09:12
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