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Lycus posted:If we assume they took some Winterfell girls to the Dreadfort dungeons when they took Theon, Roose can just pull the noblest-looking one out, and there we have fake-Arya. It doesn't particularly matter who she is beyond that, though they can call her "Jeyne". Speaking of the fake Arya plot, what do you guys think will happen with it about how show Ramsay has a girlfriend and she's almost like a female Ramsay?
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Jun 3, 2014 12:55
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Yes GRRM loves his food descriptions but I actually think that it makes perfect sense that characters would devote considerable attention to what they eat, particularly nobles who've eaten luxury meals their entire lives, people in general pay a lot of attention to food. In Brienne's chapters you don't get such lavish descriptions of meals and it makes sense for her character, Tyrion on the other hand is a gourmand who eats fancy meals and enjoys them. It's not such a big deal anyway, as opposed to a TV show with a limited amount of screentime where you need a strict economy of 'what matters' vs. 'what doesn't matter' in the books you can devote every fancy meal a paragraph or two of descriptions and it's all fine. It's also worth noting in the context of 'nobility vs. commoners' that the luxurious meals enjoyed by pretty much every single POV character also serve as a counterpoint for those times where we get to see what commoners actually eat or hear about the food situation in castle black, the nobility is clearly detached from the commoners and the food descriptions are a reminder of that.
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Jun 3, 2014 12:59
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All I know is that every nobleman in Westeros eats lamprey pie and they all think it's disgusting. Kind of want to try it.
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Jun 3, 2014 13:02
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Describing all of the food in detail is a good way to illustrate class differences. However GRRM did answer the question as to why he spends so many words on food description, in the forward for the Inn at the Crossroads cookbook no less. GRRM's reasoning is, surprisingly, that he just really likes food so he enjoys writing about it.
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Jun 3, 2014 13:23
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asvodel posted:Speaking of the fake Arya plot, what do you guys think will happen with it about how show Ramsay has a girlfriend and she's almost like a female Ramsay? Ramsay can't be the lord of Winterfell and married to some common girl. He'll make her eat her fingers in a heartbeat
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Jun 3, 2014 13:41
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Those are all good points, I just meant to say that the subtle characterization of younger brothers as more measured in their outlook (Ned, Kevan) than firstborn sons Aurubin just pointed out, was lost to me in the lists of food and house names. I'm only reading the series for the second time now, I read them all as soon as the show was announced. I'm at Arya at Harrenhal and I forgot how much of a loss Vargo Hoat and co. are, considering the shows gone balls deep with Ramsay and Oberyn, and fookin legend, why leave out lancers on zebras, shagwell and that pedo-septon going Rwanda and chopping people's tits off?
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Jun 3, 2014 13:43
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Haven't seen this posted yet, but this is my favourite reaction video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vob2_MSpXQc.
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Jun 3, 2014 13:45
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cargo cult posted:Those are all good points, I just meant to say that the subtle characterization of younger brothers as more measured in their outlook (Ned, Kevan) than firstborn sons Aurubin just pointed out, was lost to me in the lists of food and house names. I'm only reading the series for the second time now, I read them all as soon as the show was announced. I'm at Arya at Harrenhal and I forgot how much of a loss Vargo Hoat and co. are, considering the shows gone balls deep with Ramsay and Oberyn, and fookin legend, why leave out lancers on zebras, shagwell and that pedo-septon going Rwanda and chopping people's tits off?
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Jun 3, 2014 13:46
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canepazzo posted:Haven't seen this posted yet, but this is my favourite reaction video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vob2_MSpXQc. That's brilliant. I'd love to watch it in that sort of atmosphere.
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Jun 3, 2014 13:53
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In the books we never get to 'hear' Tyrion's sentence but in the show we hear Tywin use the phrase "You're sentenced to death", which made me think of the first book when Ned executes Gared he uses the phrase "I sentence you to die" which I thought was a cool as heck line, I guess in the show they decided it was a 'northern thing'.
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Jun 3, 2014 13:56
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lifts cats over head posted:Describing all of the food in detail is a good way to illustrate class differences. However GRRM did answer the question as to why he spends so many words on food description, in the forward for the Inn at the Crossroads cookbook no less. GRRM's reasoning is, surprisingly, that he just really likes food so he enjoys writing about it. I got this book as a gift and was surprised to find that it's actually a pretty good cook book.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:01
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lifts cats over head posted:Describing all of the food in detail is a good way to illustrate class differences. However GRRM did answer the question as to why he spends so many words on food description, in the forward for the Inn at the Crossroads cookbook no less. GRRM's reasoning is, surprisingly, that he just really likes food so he enjoys writing about it. One of GRRMs other books, Fevre Dream, has an old, mean, ugly fat man with warts as a hero. Other than describing this character oddly like himself, its really interesting to root for such an odd character. One of the best reoccurring parts of the book is him hogging out and eating tables of food, and all of the lavish descriptions of the stews and gravies.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:12
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emanresu tnuocca posted:In the books we never get to 'hear' Tyrion's sentence but in the show we hear Tywin use the phrase "You're sentenced to death", which made me think of the first book when Ned executes Gared he uses the phrase "I sentence you to die" which I thought was a cool as heck line, I guess in the show they decided it was a 'northern thing'. It wasn't Tywin sentencing Tyrion to die though in this case. It was 'the Gods' so it makes sense. Ned never appealed to some higher power. Also, just want to add in that the fight was incredible. Well worth waiting two weeks.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:24
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RE: Starkchat. I think it's worth noting that Ned didn't dine with his actual smallfolk (at least not regularly.) He dined with people who lived and worked at Winterfell. Not nobility, but being master of horse or steward or even a guard at a prestigious castle seems like a pretty sweet gig, and based on social realities they're going to be choosing those guys from the more well-to-do non-nobility. The Starks certainly don't want anything bad to happen to their peasant charges but they don't really demonstrate compassion for them the way that, for example, show Margaery does, or have any qualms about sacrificing them when it becomes "necessary." What I take from the Starks is that they are generally good people but it turns out that doesn't necessarily make them desireable rulers. At this point in the story I'd much rather be a Lannister peasant.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:31
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canepazzo posted:Haven't seen this posted yet, but this is my favourite reaction video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vob2_MSpXQc. The cheer at the "YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN!" jump stab was incredible! They were so relieved! That moment of happiness before it all comes crashing down is the best thing.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:46
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Drunkboxer posted:I got this book as a gift and was surprised to find that it's actually a pretty good cook book. A friend of mine has the book so I was just able to skim it. The recipes do look good but a lot of them have ingredients that aren't easily attainable in my area. I do like how it gives an accurate recipe and then a little more modern version for most of the food.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:51
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BIG HEADLINE posted:It's the same thing Rowling did in the Harry Potter books - took the 'shotgun' approach at creating so many different characters to choose from that it's literally impossible not to find one you don't see aspects of yourself in. Think of how many authors have commented about fans saying that they feel as if an author wrote a specific character 'for them.' Well I'm dead, yet still watching.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:52
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webmeister posted:Yeah I know, but what I'm saying is that they'll skip that whole "moping" phase where he just kind of drifts along and bemoans his situation. From memory, it's not really until he figures out Aegon's identity and convinces him to recklessly attack Westeros that he really turns that corner. Yeah but you could cover that part of his story in about 2-3 episodes so it's not that terrible.
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Jun 3, 2014 14:57
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thecolorpurple posted:RE: Starkchat. I think it's worth noting that Ned didn't dine with his actual smallfolk (at least not regularly.) He dined with people who lived and worked at Winterfell. Not nobility, but being master of horse or steward or even a guard at a prestigious castle seems like a pretty sweet gig, and based on social realities they're going to be choosing those guys from the more well-to-do non-nobility. The Starks certainly don't want anything bad to happen to their peasant charges but they don't really demonstrate compassion for them the way that, for example, show Margaery does, or have any qualms about sacrificing them when it becomes "necessary." The Westerlands were raided by Robb Starks' forces. I think the point was no area of Westeros was untouched by the war. No "smallfolk" got off easy.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:32
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thecolorpurple posted:RE: Starkchat. I think it's worth noting that Ned didn't dine with his actual smallfolk (at least not regularly.) He dined with people who lived and worked at Winterfell. Not nobility, but being master of horse or steward or even a guard at a prestigious castle seems like a pretty sweet gig, and based on social realities they're going to be choosing those guys from the more well-to-do non-nobility. The Starks certainly don't want anything bad to happen to their peasant charges but they don't really demonstrate compassion for them the way that, for example, show Margaery does, or have any qualms about sacrificing them when it becomes "necessary." You have to consider that the characters need to work within their system. You know what happens to Ned if he refuses to order his troops to fight in wars that don't directly benefit the peasants of the north? He gets exiled or worse by Robert, then someone else gets put in charge. Or Robert loses the war, the mad king takes the head of anyone tangentially related to the Starks, and the Boltons get put in charge. You know what happens if Ned rejects his role as a nobleman and tries to include everyone in the government? He gets his entire family killed because they're weak, the Boltons take over, and maybe the Greyjoys seize and pillage a third of the North in the meantime. You have to play the game. A theme in the series is that the smallfolk suffer for the sins of the nobles, but that doesn't make any one noble inherently bad for living in that system. The characters who stray too far from the line get ousted, that's that. Of the Hands we've seen, Tyrion did the most to actually help the smallfolk, and he got ousted because he didn't spend every ounce of his energy ruthlessly securing his position. Your example of Margaery helping the smallfolk is funny because she's not doing it out of any sense of compassion, it's a power play to secure loyalty during what is effectively a long, slow-burning coup. And what is she doing exactly, giving bread and a few minutes of her time to poor people?
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Jun 3, 2014 15:34
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Spaceman Future! posted:Ned would never risk his noble persona for the good of anyone Well except for his nephew whom he claimed as his own son even though it proved to be constant tarnish to his honor.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:39
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And that time when he threw away his honor by claiming he tried to steal the crown from Joffrey to save his children. Classic fuckin' Ned Stark doesn't give a poo poo about anyone but himself.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:42
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It's kinda funny that the only major noble that really gives a poo poo about the peasants is Edmure Tully and a lot of readers think he's an idiot for it.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:44
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I seriously am shocked that some people actually watch this show/read these books while also being unable to apply 21st century EARTH standards of morality and economic justice. Who gives a dusty gently caress about your indignation at an imaginary feudal society?
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Jun 3, 2014 15:47
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Kainser posted:It's kinda funny that the only major noble that really gives a poo poo about the peasants is Edmure Tully and a lot of readers think he's an idiot for it. He is. Ideally you want the only people eating inside a castle under siege to be your soldiers, not a bunch of useless peasants. It's like you want the ruthless dude who can cut margins and increase profits to be your CEO, not the nice guy who wants to hire all the mail room clerks to be managers because he believes in them. Also GRRM's countryside peasants are all innocent doe eyed lambs which seems unrealistic for such a brutal setting as Westeros. Only Flea Bottom and Mole Town peasants seem to be accurate representations of uneducated rabble. I would not give two shits about peasants if they all acted like Flea Bottomers. I wouldn't open the gates of my castle to a bunch of trailer trash that's gonna take shits in plain sight and knife each other over a blanket.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:49
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It's fine to feel strongly about sympathizing against upper crust nobility, but I think you're going to have a bad time going into a series about a fantasy medieval feudal society that is somewhat based in reality. Like, if you want a series that addresses those issues, pick a book based in a time period closer to now.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:51
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Doltos posted:Also GRRM's countryside peasants are all innocent doe eyed lambs which seems unrealistic for such a brutal setting as Westeros. Only Flea Bottom and Mole Town peasants seem to be accurate representations of uneducated rabble. I would not give two shits about peasants if they all acted like Flea Bottomers. I wouldn't open the gates of my castle to a bunch of trailer trash that's gonna take shits in plain sight and knife each other over a blanket. I don't know about that. I can't think of any specific instances in which peasants weren't out to gently caress each other/someone else over in order to feed their family.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:52
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Max posted:It's fine to feel strongly about sympathizing against upper crust nobility, but I think you're going to have a bad time going into a series about a fantasy medieval feudal society that is somewhat based in reality. Like, if you want a series that addresses those issues, pick a book based in a time period closer to now. I think it's more that he thinks he's special for thinking feudalism is bad more than any kind of actual emotional reaction. If he genuinely had a problem with the idea he would not have read all the books, surely? I mean you'd stop after two if you really thought it was some kind of sick propaganda bent on bringing back the kings of old.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:55
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Doltos posted:Also GRRM's countryside peasants are all innocent doe eyed lambs which seems unrealistic for such a brutal setting as Westeros. Only Flea Bottom and Mole Town peasants seem to be accurate representations of uneducated rabble. I would not give two shits about peasants if they all acted like Flea Bottomers. I wouldn't open the gates of my castle to a bunch of trailer trash that's gonna take shits in plain sight and knife each other over a blanket. Yeah, no. Pretty much all the common folk in ASOIAF are portrayed as a bunch of loving animals. Also Ned is suitably horrorstruck that the Hound kills the butcher's boy rather than not caring at all.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:58
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Max posted:It's fine to feel strongly about sympathizing against upper crust nobility, but I think you're going to have a bad time going into a series about a fantasy medieval feudal society that is somewhat based in reality. Like, if you want a series that addresses those issues, pick a book based in a time period closer to now. Unzip and Attack posted:I seriously am shocked that some people actually watch this show/read these books while also being unable to apply 21st century EARTH standards of morality and economic justice. Who gives a dusty gently caress about your indignation at an imaginary feudal society? But, GoT talk. It's not as if the idea of wondering how the smallfolk feel would be some outlandish alien concern to the series. In GRRM's own words, quote:What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles? A lot of the more interesting conflicts are also related to the strange balance between modern values and Westerosi "reality". Tyrion is a monstrosity - do we treat him as a human? Westeros barely does, but GRRM certainly does, giving him POV chapters. Cersei is a woman, and she wishes she wasn't. In the Rolling Stone interview, GRRM himself discusses Ned's execution in the context of water boarding. GoT works nicely as escapism (and in a bunch of other ways I guess), but being surprised when somebody also enjoys, or at least finds interesting, the other, very prominent aspects is almost as naive as being surprised when people dive in for an hour and cheer at the Starks. Randarkman posted:Yeah, no. Pretty much all the common folk in ASOIAF are portrayed as a bunch of loving animals.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:02
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It's one thing to notice the injustices of the setting and fold them into a nuanced opinion of the works as a whole. It's quite another to just blanket hate all the nobles (who make up 99% of the characters) and take pleasure in all their misfortunes because they aren't all revolutionary egalitarians. But I'm sure if you had been born into their situations you would have given up your status and fortune in a heartbeat because of your moral superiority, right? I mean if there's anything we can take from the series, it's that altruistic intentions always result in better outcomes for all! Unzip and Attack fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 16:06
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Cingulate posted:"Treating human beings as something else than human beings" is a moral standard I'd like to see applied to every individual in every epoch. I would actually be very interested in a book series specifically about smallfolk trying to live their lives during medieval times. When you get past Brienne's quest to find Sansa, the picture of the lives of the smallfolk it very interesting in its own regard. But if you want to write a series about the political machinations of that society, you sort of have to focus on the nobility, since the smallfolk wouldn't have much agency in that regard.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:10
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Unzip and Attack posted:But I'm sure if you had been born into their situations you would have given up your status and fortune in a heartbeat because of your moral superiority, right? I mean if there's anything we can take from the series, it's that altruistic intentions always result in better outcomes for all! Yes I am literally Baelor the Blessed
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Jun 3, 2014 16:15
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Unzip and Attack posted:It's one thing to notice the injustices of the setting and fold them into a nuanced opinion of the works as a whole. It's quite another to just blanket hate all the nobles (who make up 99% of the characters) and take pleasure in all their misfortunes because they aren't all revolutionary egalitarians. At first, if I got you correctly, you said applying contemporary morals to Westeros was something you can't imagine. Now, you're talking about "hating" all nobles because they're not "revolutionary egalitarians". I don't think I could identify one correct way of watching this thing - but watching it as partly a deconstruction of extreme relativist fantasy is certainly one option. "What of the orc babies?" Max posted:I would actually be very interested in a book series specifically about smallfolk trying to live their lives during medieval times. When you get past Brienne's quest to find Sansa, the picture of the lives of the smallfolk it very interesting in its own regard. But if you want to write a series about the political machinations of that society, you sort of have to focus on the nobility, since the smallfolk wouldn't have much agency in that regard. Knowing him, it would most likely be extremely depressing though.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:15
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Max posted:I would actually be very interested in a book series specifically about smallfolk trying to live their lives during medieval times. When you get past Brienne's quest to find Sansa, the picture of the lives of the smallfolk it very interesting in its own regard. But if you want to write a series about the political machinations of that society, you sort of have to focus on the nobility, since the smallfolk wouldn't have much agency in that regard. I guess there's Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett, read it quite some time ago, can't really remember if it was any good but it is suitably .. GURM-y in its violence, heartlessness and inclusion of a few rapes. Main characters there are pretty much all commoners, monks and priests, with a few exiled nobles and an evil prick of a knight. It's also set during The Anarchy which I think together with the War of the Roses is what inspired the ASOIAF-books. Randarkman fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 16:15
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Randarkman posted:I guess there's Pillars of the Earth by Ken Follett, read it quite some time ago, can't really remember if it was any good but it is suitably .. GURM-y in its violence, heartlessness and inclusion of a few rapes. Main characters there are pretty much all commoners, monks and priests, with a few exiled nobles and an evil prick of a knight. I don't really care that much if there is hyper-violence in these novels or not, but that sounds interesting, I'll check it out.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:22
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I watched Pillars of the Earth's miniseries on Showtime and drat that was a great series. I highly recommend it to anyone who likes cheering against rear end in a top hat nobles.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:23
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Game of Thrones SPOILER THREAD - You know nothing, Jon Show God, I wish we could l, but that one really is a bit obviously spoilerific.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:25
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Okay, Downtown Abbey has been mentioned before; Gosford Park gives me some GoT vibes. It also tightly focuses the class issue. There is very little violence though. Well, compared to GoT that is.
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Jun 3, 2014 16:26
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Cingulate posted:"What of the orc babies?" Truly these are the questions that keep me up at night.
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