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Shath Hole posted:I apologize if I missed it (this thread moves quick!) but didn't her hair seem black as well? I don't think it means evil Sansa either, the black outfit would make sense for the funeral but the hair kinda threw me unless it was just poor lighting. Thats a good point, I thought it was just the light though personally. Guess we'll find out next episode.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:45
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drat, I already miss the red. I also took the black clothes to mean mourning, but Robin's not dressed in black. Maybe because he's a lord now and doesn't have to? The 'little bird' and the 'mockingbird' do look badass in their coordinating outfits.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:48
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Shath Hole posted:I apologize if I missed it (this thread moves quick!) but didn't her hair seem black as well? I don't think it means evil Sansa either, the black outfit would make sense for the funeral but the hair kinda threw me unless it was just poor lighting. It is to symbolize that her character has changed. She isn't that innocent girl anymore. She is starting to see the bigger picture, and become a player in the game. It isn't meant to mean she is evil anymore than the other characters.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:51
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Sophie Turner is a pretty young lady, but I think having her hair pulled back is probably the worst look for her head shape, and it's a shame that it's basically always pulled back in the show.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:54
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Honore_De_Balzac posted:It is to symbolize that her character has changed. She isn't that innocent girl anymore. She is starting to see the bigger picture, and become a player in the game. It isn't meant to mean she is evil anymore than the other characters. Yeah, that is how I read it as well. I personally dig the look, and am looking forward to seeing where this LF/Sansa plotline goes.
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Jun 3, 2014 17:55
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Doltos posted:That 'gimmick' is called a plot twist and is in pretty much every single interesting story out there. The execution in the show is absurd because much of what is implied or guessed at comes across better in literary form. He lured his enemies into a super unbelievable and unnecessary conspiracy, not merely "a trap". Are you saying that in the book there were 100+ Stark soldiers in the throne room that they couldn't show? And that Frey actually sent out people to attack the Stark bannermen camps in open field in hopes that they were all drunk and would fall over in a massacre? That seems like an even more unnecessary plan than I originally understood. From what I remember they ambushed the various Stark soldiers inside the keep, and without a leader the bannermen disbanded afterward (they made a point of saying this in the show). The real risk is as you said - chance of Robb escaping - but that seems pretty negligible compared to "one of my hundreds of random soldiers not keeping the huge conspiracy a secret and then I lose everything". I fully get the context of the Oberyn situation and everything that happened. Like a half a dozen people have pointed out in this thread, they could have "had his hubris kill him" without it being "lol prankt, the guy with a hole in his chest choking on his blood got up".
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Jun 3, 2014 17:59
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Vehementi posted:Like it or not, to a lot (most?) people, the characters drive or are the story. Sorry if I missed it, but I didn't notice this in the other responses. The reason it was a giant wedding wasn't just to ambush Robb. Frey wanted his house, through Roslin, to have a claim to Riverrun through her future children with Edmure. They needed a legitimate wedding to make that official. It's the same reason Sansa was married to Tyrion. Simply wiping out your enemy's army doesn't give you a claim to their territory.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:03
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No, he collapsed the giant party tents and set them on fire. (Really) Also, actually going through with the wedding was important to Frey; he'd wanted to have his line married into an important house for a long time.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:05
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^^ It was also the easiest way to get them there. Also the only way that they would trust them was to do the guest rights poo poo, since they had a good reason to think they would betray them, since Robb broke his word. BubbleGoose posted:drat, I already miss the red. I also took the black clothes to mean mourning, but Robin's not dressed in black. Maybe because he's a lord now and doesn't have to? Didn't they mention before her red hair is a distinctive feature? It could be to hide it since she is wanted for the death of the king
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Jun 3, 2014 18:08
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People in that land respect a ruse wedding where a house is massacred? They made a huge loving deal about how Frey's house's name is ruined forever for breaking the guest rule. It seems super far fetched anyone would be convinced that this wedding was legitimate, not under duress, or not invalidated for a dozen reasons like "they killed all the guests", much less care about any claim House Frey makes from now until the end of time.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:09
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Vehementi posted:People in that land respect a ruse wedding where a house is massacred? They made a huge loving deal about how Frey's house's name is ruined forever for breaking the guest rule. It seems super far fetched anyone would be convinced that this wedding was legitimate, not under duress, or not invalidated for a dozen reasons like "they killed all the guests", much less care about any claim House Frey makes from now until the end of time. The name is ruined but they have the support of the Lannisters so it is valid.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:10
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So I guess the beetle-smashing anecdote was a statement about GRRM http://i.imgur.com/pYZfHq7.jpg
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Jun 3, 2014 18:11
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Savage Cracker posted:So I guess the beetle-smashing anecdote was a statement about GRRM The Joffrey one is perfect.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:17
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Tactical realism gripes are pretty much always stupid but I do think there's some validity to griping about it in a certain context with GoT, because the show kind of paints itself into that corner. GRRM pretty clearly has a big wank over grimdark realism, and it's beat over our head pretty thoroughly with the constant reminders that armor and big sword wins 99% of the time, Drogo being a big strong dude who dies from a flesh wound, Robert dies from being gored by a pig, etc etc the various examples people have brought up. So it spends a lot of time applying that sort of consistency to itself and ridiculing the viewer for thinking differently. So I think it's fair for people to criticize it when they feel like it subverts it at its convenience, or fails to meet its own standards in some way. To be clear, I felt like the Oberyn/Mountain fight and its outcome was fine, and consistent with the show's themes. But I'm going to find it pretty contrived as well if the Mountain isn't fatally incapacitated/doesn't succumb to his wounds, because that's loving absurd. You don't survive having your hamstring severed and being stabbed and impaled through the chest, especially if you're coughing up blood. Of course we know he was poisoned as well, which adds to it. But you can see how a viewer operating with only the context of the show would be frustrated I also don't understand the mental gymnastics people do to say the series isn't nihilistic. It is. I feel like it's a kind of defensiveness, like if its nihilistic it's inherently poo poo, or if literally anything good ever happens in the show then it can't be nihilistic. It's a nihilistic as gently caress show and series to this point, and I think without any of us knowing where this is all going it's completely fair to call it that. But that's not a bad thing, it doesn't devalue it or anything. It is the type of story it is, and the same people who respond to outrage over character deaths with "You're watching the wrong show" should be able to appreciate that.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:20
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I really like how she has that feathers-motif going on to coordinate with Littlefinger's mockingbird.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:26
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Mandrel posted:Tactical realism gripes are pretty much always stupid but I do think there's some validity to griping about it in a certain context with GoT, because the show kind of paints itself into that corner. GRRM pretty clearly has a big wank over grimdark realism, and it's beat over our head pretty thoroughly with the constant reminders that armor and big sword wins 99% of the time, Drogo being a big strong dude who dies from a flesh wound, Robert dies from being gored by a pig, etc etc the various examples people have brought up. So it spends a lot of time applying that sort of consistency to itself and ridiculing the viewer for thinking differently. So I think it's fair for people to criticize it when they feel like it subverts it at its convenience, or fails to meet its own standards in some way. I agree, and I definitely have my issues with it, but some bellyaches about what is realistic and what isn't often tells me that the person isn't paying attention or have unrealistic expectations of the show. As for how characters die and why, well, that's GRRM's vision. It may suck--and I've certainly had thoughts of walking away from the show--but his vision doesn't owe us happing endings for our favorite characters. The show runners obviously agree with 60-70% of the story as written by Martin, so that's what we're getting. quote:I also don't understand the mental gymnastics people do to say the series isn't nihilistic. It is. I feel like it's a kind of defensiveness, like if its nihilistic it's inherently poo poo, or if literally anything good ever happens in the show then it can't be nihilistic. It's a nihilistic as gently caress show and series to this point, and I think without any of us knowing where this is all going it's completely fair to call it that. But that's not a bad thing, it doesn't devalue it or anything. It is the type of story it is, and the same people who respond to outrage over character deaths with "You're watching the wrong show" should be able to appreciate that. I'm not really feeling the nihilism, to be honest. Sure the story is often bleak, but it's not always bleak. The grim parts do stand out more, so I get why others perceive it as nihilistic.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:40
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Blazing Ownager posted:Anyway for anyone mad about them killing off Obreyn, at least look at the bright side: This was probably the very best role for his career he could ask for. I suspect you're going to see him in more stuff in the near future with how impressive he was. He's already been acting in a new role nightly... in my dreams. 
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Jun 3, 2014 18:49
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BubbleGoose posted:I agree, and I definitely have my issues with it, but some bellyaches about what is realistic and what isn't often tells me that the person isn't paying attention or have unrealistic expectations of the show. As for how characters die and why, well, that's GRRM's vision. It may suck--and I've certainly had thoughts of walking away from the show--but his vision doesn't owe us happing endings for our favorite characters. The show runners obviously agree with 60-70% of the story as written by Martin, so that's what we're getting. I agree. I am a paramedic and people die of random poo poo literally every day. I think you nailed it saying people have unrealistic expectations of the show. That being said, there is a story being told, and a plot line that needs to be advanced and GRRM chose to do that through death and treachery. I'm not sure how you keep a series about 4 or 5 houses vying for the crown fresh without killing off key players in order to do so.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:52
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Fight Club Sandwich posted:Wait are we sure Oberyn is dead Followers of the lord of light get the raise dead spell so there's always hope.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:52
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I can honestly say I'd be satisfied if Dany was killed somehow. She's such a worthless character.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:54
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How's this for an issue? The mountain is stabbed through the chest and is coughing up blood but he's quick enough to nab Oberyn immediately after getting knocked down? The guy who's been dancing around him all day while he was totally healthy? Oberyn can't roll away after getting knocked down and wag his finger sassily?
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Jun 3, 2014 18:54
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Woden posted:Followers of the lord of light get the raise dead spell so there's always hope. They need a head for that. Maybe they can glue the bits back together and pray for the best. Or they will revive him and he will end up as Orson Martell.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:54
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Skeesix posted:How's this for an issue? The mountain is stabbed through the chest and is coughing up blood but he's quick enough to nab Oberyn immediately after getting knocked down? The guy who's been dancing around him all day while he was totally healthy? Oberyn can't roll away after getting knocked down and wag his finger sassily? You mean while Oberyn was crouched over him, inches from the body of a man that literally has a 7 foot wing span? It's the loving Mountain we are talking about here, he wasn't going to be an easy out! 
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Jun 3, 2014 18:58
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Vehementi posted:He lured his enemies into a super unbelievable and unnecessary conspiracy, not merely "a trap". Are you saying that in the book there were 100+ Stark soldiers in the throne room that they couldn't show? And that Frey actually sent out people to attack the Stark bannermen camps in open field in hopes that they were all drunk and would fall over in a massacre? That seems like an even more unnecessary plan than I originally understood. From what I remember they ambushed the various Stark soldiers inside the keep, and without a leader the bannermen disbanded afterward (they made a point of saying this in the show). The real risk is as you said - chance of Robb escaping - but that seems pretty negligible compared to "one of my hundreds of random soldiers not keeping the huge conspiracy a secret and then I lose everything". How is it super unbelievable and unnecessary? He told the dude, "Hey come into my castle so we can talk about how you just completely hosed me over by marrying that other girl instead of my daughter." Robb would obviously go because he needs the Freys to keep the passage to the North safe and because Robb was super dishonorable by breaking his vow to Frey. As for soldiers keeping their mouths shut? Hell yeah they will. The way army heirarchies are set up in Westeros is that the family members lead the troops. The Freys are the biggest house in Westeros and there's a full grown Frey at every single post commanding people. All they have to say to their couple hundred troops is, "If you tell anyone about this, we'll skin your ballsack off." On top of that Frey had the ballistas loaded and the wedding tents rigged to catch on fire and collapse. It was a pretty great trap that's pretty realistic... in a story about dragons and magic. Vehementi posted:I fully get the context of the Oberyn situation and everything that happened. Like a half a dozen people have pointed out in this thread, they could have "had his hubris kill him" without it being "lol prankt, the guy with a hole in his chest choking on his blood got up". So then why don't you understand it? The Mountain is a huge dude and there's stuff called adrenaline that keeps the body pumping when it should fall down. It's that inconceivable that the Mountain couldn't roll over and do one more big assault on Oberyn? Have you watched entertainment shows before? Vehementi posted:People in that land respect a ruse wedding where a house is massacred? They made a huge loving deal about how Frey's house's name is ruined forever for breaking the guest rule. It seems super far fetched anyone would be convinced that this wedding was legitimate, not under duress, or not invalidated for a dozen reasons like "they killed all the guests", much less care about any claim House Frey makes from now until the end of time. Weddings are binding, even if they do lead to some crazy stuff. I mean Joffrey chopped off Ned's head but he still was married to his daughter.
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Jun 3, 2014 18:58
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CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:They need a head for that. Maybe they can glue the bits back together and pray for the best. Or they will revive him and he will end up as Orson Martell. With every beetle he smashes he yells "YOU RAPED HER! YOU MURDERED HER! YOU KILLED HER CHILDREN!" 
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Jun 3, 2014 18:59
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Skeesix posted:How's this for an issue? The mountain is stabbed through the chest and is coughing up blood but he's quick enough to nab Oberyn immediately after getting knocked down? The guy who's been dancing around him all day while he was totally healthy? Oberyn can't roll away after getting knocked down and wag his finger sassily? It's been said a million times before but Oberyn wasn't in the same mindset in that moment that he was during the fight. When The Mountain was on his feet Oberyn was at 100% but once he thought he'd already won he allowed himself to get emotional and lose focus. This is why The Mountain got the jump on him.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:01
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Shath Hole posted:I apologize if I missed it (this thread moves quick!) but didn't her hair seem black as well? I don't think it means evil Sansa either, the black outfit would make sense for the funeral but the hair kinda threw me unless it was just poor lighting. The black hair is part of the transformation for us to appreciate in her new found dark side, but it's also so she literally looks related to him, as her cover is only broken to the small council in the Vale. To everyone else, she has to look like his niece, Ladyfinger.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:01
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Doltos posted:So then why don't you understand it? The Mountain is a huge dude and there's stuff called adrenaline that keeps the body pumping when it should fall down. It's that inconceivable that the Mountain couldn't roll over and do one more big assault on Oberyn? Have you watched entertainment shows before? Not to mention that Oberyn wanted The Mountain talking and pointing. He didn't exactly go for a kill shot. I think Veh's just trolling with dumb criticisms.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:02
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Who else got major Princess Bride vibes from the fight? I know it's a standard revenge story, but the whole 'repeat the phrase' intimidation style was very "You killed my father. Prepare to die." I wonder if that was intentional or not. It also made Oberon's loss that much more sad since my head was in a different space half the time.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:07
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The conspiracy aspect of the Red Wedding is quite believable; historically similar things happened in Rome in 408 when the Legions murdered all the Germans (and their families) from their ranks on the eve of a war with the Visigoths. In China as well something similar happened though I can't remember the details right now. And of course there's the Black Wedding in later European history that we GRRM has cited as an inspiration.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:09
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SmellOfPetroleum posted:Who else got major Princess Bride vibes from the fight? I know it's a standard revenge story, but the whole 'repeat the phrase' intimidation style was very "You killed my father. Prepare to die." I wonder if that was intentional or not. It also made Oberon's loss that much more sad since my head was in a different space half the time. For sure, I did as well. They even kind of sound the same. If it was intentional or not, I don't know, but there was a Inigo Montoya feel to that scene for sure.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:11
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Vehementi posted:People in that land respect a ruse wedding where a house is massacred? They made a huge loving deal about how Frey's house's name is ruined forever for breaking the guest rule. It seems super far fetched anyone would be convinced that this wedding was legitimate, not under duress, or not invalidated for a dozen reasons like "they killed all the guests", much less care about any claim House Frey makes from now until the end of time. a) A wedding is a legally and religiously binding contract in that world, and only a big rear end pimp Maester like Pycelle can annul it. b) They had the Lannister's backing, and would never have attempted it otherwise. It's not that complicated, it's not contrived, and if you're going to poo poo all over the story you could at least either read the books or pay proper attention to the show.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:18
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I'm still in shock, I'm so glad I wasn't spoiled for this. To the guy who was asking how is it possible for anyone to remain unspoiled- well I'm not unspoiled thanks to a couple of avatars here, but after Joffrey and the Red Wedding there's only a couple of upcoming events I'm still spoiled on. And one of those sounded so ridiculous and stupid that I'm not sure it was even a real spoiler. It's not very difficult since none of my friends who watch the show have read the books. And this thread is the only place online I discuss Game of Thrones. DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:The conspiracy aspect of the Red Wedding is quite believable; historically similar things happened in Rome in 408 when the Legions murdered all the Germans (and their families) from their ranks on the eve of a war with the Visigoths. In China as well something similar happened though I can't remember the details right now. And of course there's the Black Wedding in later European history that we GRRM has cited as an inspiration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Glencoe is one event GRRM has cited as an inspiration. Still infamous in Scotland today, with the McDonald clan acting as the real life Starks and the Campbell clan acting as the Freys. Though in this case it was the guests massacring the hosts. Shath Hole posted:For sure, I did as well. They even kind of sound the same. If it was intentional or not, I don't know, but there was a Inigo Montoya feel to that scene for sure. Catching up on the thread, about ten people have noted the similarity, with each asking if they are the only one.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:20
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Yeah it's probably a frequent thought, but I missed the other posts. Here's another point that has been brought up before: Arya laughing maniacally at The Hound's inability to get rid of her. I'm not one of the posters who is on the verge of leaving and only watching for one thing or anything, but I do greatly appreciate moments of humor in this show. Between that and the great rabbit fire of episode 4 this season has been able to pull off some good jokes in dire circumstances. I've gotten the impression that Arya and The Hound aren't going to continue though. Sure her aunt's dead but she still has a cousin, so she would still have worth, yeah? Also I want to see a battle at The Bloody Gate. That poo poo has gravitas. It's come up enough that it'd be a shame not to use it in a cool way.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:41
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Doltos posted:Weddings are binding, even if they do lead to some crazy stuff. I mean Joffrey chopped off Ned's head but he still was married to his daughter. Joffrey was definitely not married to Ned's daughter. Steve2911 posted:a) A wedding is a legally and religiously binding contract in that world, and only a big rear end pimp Maester like Pycelle can annul it. Maesters aren't religious; septons are. Maesters are like science/healer dudes; I can't see them having the ability to annul a wedding (though I guess they have been using Pycelle as the master of ceremonies pretty often so who knows). The guy who married Joffrey and Margarine and crowned Tommen was the High Septon though (Pycelle is the Grand Maester). Woden posted:Followers of the lord of light get the raise dead spell so there's always hope. Sadly, they don't get a "repair caved in skull" spell. Beric kept every wound that killed him, not sure what exactly would come back if they tried it with Oberryn. SmellOfPetroleum posted:Also I want to see a battle at The Bloody Gate. That poo poo has gravitas. It's come up enough that it'd be a shame not to use it in a cool way. I think only Stannis is stubborn enough to attack the Bloody Gate, and even he would be stupid to try it. Clearly they need to get Bronn. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 19:42
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SmellOfPetroleum posted:Yeah it's probably a frequent thought, but I missed the other posts. I mean her sister is right there too now but I'm sure they'll end up just missing one another because that's a trope that nobody seems to mind using ad naseum.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:48
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https://imgur.com/gallery/l6ke6 Everyone looks more or less the same in the show as in real life, except for Varys... he looks like two completely different people, weird.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:52
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Mister Fister posted:https://imgur.com/gallery/l6ke6 You did see Sandor Clegana?
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Jun 3, 2014 19:55
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Mister Fister posted:https://imgur.com/gallery/l6ke6 I cannot reconcile Gwendoline Christine with heavy makeup on.
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Jun 3, 2014 19:57
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SmellOfPetroleum posted:Who else got major Princess Bride vibes from the fight?
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