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Arglebargle III posted:Yyyup. Lollin at the "we're not sure how this is related to the Xia Dynasty, but it is." The Chinese archeological community is a disaster since all they do is basically get the memo of what they're supposed to discover and then they go dig and ten years later it turns out they discovered exactly that! quote:Maybe I was a bit harsh earlier. If Greeks believed that everything Plato wrote was literally true you wouldn't have to send a memo to get them to go look for Atlantis. They would just do it. And then announce that Minoan linear a was evidence that Atlantis existed, despite not having a clear narrative for how that would work. this is analogous to how Chinese archaeology works right now. Everything in the current mainstream Chinese view of history hinges on the records of the Grand Historian being true literally true , so you can bet that when they go to research it turns out they confirm everything in the records of the Grand Historian. This isn't really true. Archaeologists in China primarily work on rescue excavations, since construction has exploded so much recently, and thus they excavate whatever they need to. The problem comes from the fact that there are limited opportunities for publishing the results of those excavations, and the resulting reports are usually both perfunctory and vague, giving plenty of opportunity for manipulation. quote:They are encouraged by the fact that the Shang Dynasty which was only attested in the records of the grand historian was previously believed to be mythical as well until contemporary records were found that corroborated Sima Qian's history. The search for the Xia Dynasty is an attempt to replicate that victory over Western archaeology. Needless to say that's a bad motive for good archeological work but it's more complex than party stooges giving marching orders. It's a nationalist pride project in which everyone knows what they're supposed to find. In a way it's worse than if academics were forced to publish results they didn't believe in. I get the sense that the academics are true believers themselves. On the other hand, the whole Xia thing is pretty much how you describe it - see the Xia-Shang-Zhou Chronology Project, which was a government effort to produce The Definitive Chronology of Early China, which was almost immediately criticized by non-Chinese scholars as totally methodologically bankrupt.
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May 5, 2014 15:39
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MeramJert posted:But China doesn't actually divide the world into "my country" and "not my country" the way that hitension was suggesting. The existence and use of the word 國外 isn't necessarily evidence of that, just like 河馬 (hippopotamus, "river horse") doesn't mean Chinese people literally think hippos are a type of horse. By the way, the Chinese word is just a calque of the original Greek word: hippos means horse and potamos means river in Greek.
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May 5, 2014 15:44
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In other archaeological news, there's a place in Hong Kong called Sacred Hill (Sung Wong Toi, 宋王台) that was supposed to be the site of the suicide of the last Song Dynasty emperor. During a survey, the monuments department found that there are actually a bunch of Song-dynasty related artifacts around the place ... and the report was quietly ignored so the MTR could blast its railway tunnels for the new extension. 
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May 5, 2014 15:44
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I went and read about Tiananmen for a while and this is a pretty great eyewitness account if you'd like to know more. This is from the end of the interview:PBS Interviews Jan Wong posted:…We passed out copies of that famous picture [Tank Man] to undergraduates at Beijing University -- the hub where the first activism started -- and these undergraduates were genuinely mystified. One of them said, "I don't know; maybe it's a parade or something," and another one said very politely, "May I ask if this is a piece of your artwork?" How has the regime succeeded in wiping out recent history? And another link for context. MeinPanzer posted:This isn't really true. Archaeologists in China primarily work on rescue excavations, since construction has exploded so much recently, and thus they excavate whatever they need to. The problem comes from the fact that there are limited opportunities for publishing the results of those excavations, and the resulting reports are usually both perfunctory and vague, giving plenty of opportunity for manipulation. Thanks for this. I mostly encounter Chinese archeology through museums or the education system which is very much not firsthand. I don't really know that much about the field as it is today in China. If you have anything else you'd like to say it would be great.
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May 5, 2014 15:48
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caberham posted:That's funny , because the current government surplus stays in Hong Kong instead of flowing into the crown coffers.Not that everyone in hk is benefiting because the government rather blow 17billion hkd on a railroad line saving 25 minutes The rise of China and the trade agreements with it are destroying the traditional economy of HK and there's no way that transitioning to a services and finance sector can replace that for the average HKer. The rich are doing great, but why would the poor of HK be able to compete with the poor of Shenzhen? Even if HK is able to maintain their budget surplus, that's nothing compared to the trade balance between HK and China...  The balance from China to HK was about 30 billion per year at handover, it's now more than 252 billion in China's direction, that's like 268 billion to HK, and 15 to China (though yes, some of this may be 'fake' exports from China, it's not all fake, or even mostly). Increasingly, Hong Kong has nothing to offer China EXCEPT for milk powder and some brand name shops. If we're defining a colony as a non-self-governing territory whose wealth benefits the 'mother country' then Hong Kong is far more of a colony under China than it was under the UK. I've never had anyone address this negatively apart from the idea that, "Hong Kong people are CHINESE." If Hong Kong was a colony before the handover, and implicit in the handover was no change in governing structure for 50 years, then why is it not still a colony?
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May 5, 2014 15:51
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There shouldn't be a surplus. Mr. Tsang should be budgeting increases to overcrowded hospitals and improving roads which, aside from HK island, are almost universally lovely. He's turned a huge accounting mistake into some impressive thing he parades in front of the LegCo to make them think people here give a poo poo.
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May 5, 2014 15:57
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Timothy Brook posted:There is extensive eyewitness evidence that soldiers surrendered to student monitors to get themselves out of an intolerable situation. This is a quote from the second interview. I'm a teacher in China and the class monitor is usually a reserved goody-two-shoes girl with good grades. (Probably true in any country.) I can't imagine college class monitors were much different in the late 80s. I just have this image of a teenage soldier complete with camo fatigues and AK-47 attempting to surrender to a 班长. It's hilarious and surreal and it actually happened, apparently.
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May 5, 2014 15:59
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synertia posted:There shouldn't be a surplus. Mr. Tsang should be budgeting increases to overcrowded hospitals and improving roads which, aside from HK island, are almost universally lovely. He's turned a huge accounting mistake into some impressive thing he parades in front of the LegCo to make them think people here give a poo poo. Our roads in New Territories West are just fine, thank you  (except Pat Heung, gently caress that place)
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May 5, 2014 16:34
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What the... Pat heung sucks. Yuen Long town sucks. Tuen mun sucks besides the highway. Sha tin is better because of all the "tourists". Try driving down the road to Kam Tin. Also, route 9 going above Cheung Sha Wan and Kln Tong is a loving travesty.
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May 5, 2014 16:36
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Arglebargle III posted:Thanks for this. I mostly encounter Chinese archeology through museums or the education system which is very much not firsthand. I don't really know that much about the field as it is today in China. If you have anything else you'd like to say it would be great. I can't read Chinese, but I am interested in archaeology and ancient Chinese history, and I read English-language Chinese archaeological publications now and then and have friends who work on Chinese archaeology. From what I understand, Chinese archaeology is still in many ways modeled on the Soviet paradigm, which dictated that archaeologists publish brief summaries of their excavation results in official journals but submit their detailed excavation notes (where all the crucial information is to be found, usually) to the central authorities to be kept in archives. As such, the state controls the crucial information, making it difficult to criticize aspects of excavations like the chronology of different phases of a site. As a result, the Chinese style of publication in main journals like Kaogu or Wenwu reads like a lot of Western archaeological publications from a hundred years ago: pottery is important mainly for chronological purposes, everything is dated by broad archaeological phases, and the only finds given full publication are interesting/noteworthy/prestigious objects or contexts.
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May 5, 2014 16:45
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Imperialist Dog posted:Mostly the English-speaking mid-to-upper class would prefer British to Chinese rule. My friends explained it thusly: they were never too fond of the Brits and Hong Kong was incredibly corrupt until the 70's and downright racist, and after 1997 they were promised that they'd finally run their own affairs. When that didn't happen, and the government is now run by pro-China cronies, they got pissed off and would prefer the Brits quietly running things for their own self-interest than CY telling them it's for their own good. Yeah but the 70s saw the introduction of the ICAC, which was the best thing to happen to government in the history of anything. Then the mainlanders took over and Timothy Tong, head of the ICAC is taking trips to the mainland left and right and spending ICAC money on Moutai to entertain communist officials. Supposedly Simon Peh has made things better but it remains to be seen. After the creation of the ICAC, Hong Kong was pretty awesome, as far as I know. But was only born in 88 and I've only been in Hong Kong for four years so I welcome some counterexamples. Cabe talks about money going back to London but I don't think that is immediately a problem unless there's evidence that such a thing harmed Hong Kong as a place.
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May 5, 2014 18:23
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Bloodnose posted:Yeah but the 70s saw the introduction of the ICAC, which was the best thing to happen to government in the history of anything. Mind going over what ICAC is and what it did?
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May 5, 2014 18:24
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It's the Independent Commission Against Corruption, and pretty much everything that it is is in the name. Governor Murray MacLehose, the Scottish patron saint of Hong Kong, introduced the ICAC in response to rampant police corruption that came to a head in the 70s with some really high profile cases. The idea was an organization, completely independent of the civil service, with far-reaching powers, that reported directly to London. And it worked. It worked spectacularly. Hong Kong went from being a den of corruption to being one of the cleanest jurisdictions on the planet practically overnight. After the handover, though, the Commissioner is appointed by the State Council of the PRC. That sounds like a recipe for disaster, considering that the people on the State Council are some of the most accomplished practitioners of corruption in the world. And Timothy Tong, Commissioner from 2007 to 2012, is under special investigation by the LegCo for really egregiously spending tons of ICAC money taking trips to the mainland and entertaining communists in Hong Kong. I want to say he was awarded with a CPPCC seat after all that but I can't find anything to support it so I could be wrong.
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May 5, 2014 18:34
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ProfessorCurly posted:Mind going over what ICAC is and what it did? 
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May 5, 2014 23:32
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Arglebargle III posted:I went and read about Tiananmen for a while and this is a pretty great eyewitness account if you'd like to know more. This is from the end of the interview: A decent number of young mainland Chinese people DO know about 6/4, reasons in decreasing order of likelihood: 1) Young people today's parents were students during this time period and discussed their first hand experiences 2) Personal interest in history/politics/etc, a vague awareness that the government isn't telling them everything, and 翻牆ing (using a VPN) and stumbling across it 3) Traveling abroad (especially to places like Taiwan or the USA, where everyone is desperate to tell the Chinese people about this incident) and encountering this information I have no idea what the percentage is though, I wish this is something that could be researched. I would guess 20% as a completely made up number. Also some Chinese people are goody two shoes and pretend to not know what you're talking about when you bring up 6/4, Tibet, etc., could be for multiple reasons: don't feel like arguing, feel awkward discussing the issue with foreigners, afraid of getting in some sort of trouble etc. By the way, if you want to hear first-hand accounts of 6/4, a lot of the leaders such as Wang Dan and Wuerkaixi live in Taiwan now. Wang Dan gives really great lectures!
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May 6, 2014 00:55
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computer parts posted:The Search for Modern China is basically the perfect book for describing China's history from the 19th Century to the present, even though it's a bit pricy (we used it for a textbook in my history class). I have that audiobook. I think is every boring. I much prefer Fall and Rise of China by Professor Richard Baum http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/Courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=8370 It covers the same late Qing to 90s period. Sometimes he takes the Communist power struggle news a bit on the face value but he makes the subject matter interesting. You can get both from Audible for 1 credit. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 01:32 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 01:29
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Great twitter feed to be following right now is @prchovanec who is updating a realtime photo record of 1989.quote:June 3, 1989, 9:00am - Beijing residents commandeer buses to form roadblocks at major intersections 
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Jun 3, 2014 02:23
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V for Vegas posted:Great twitter feed to be following right now is @prchovanec who is updating a realtime photo record of 1989. Is that photo backwards, or are the doors on the wrong side of that bus?
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Jun 3, 2014 03:32
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VideoTapir posted:Is that photo backwards, or are the doors on the wrong side of that bus? I think that's the back of the bus.
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Jun 3, 2014 03:34
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Huh...I think you're right. The door placement, rear window size and slope, and placement of what are clearly taillights had me fooled. That's a weird bus. edit: Bet the front and rear use identical sheet metal, in which case it's awesome. VideoTapir fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 04:44
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You know how the real estate price is so high in Beijing now it effectively make every Beijing residence a middle class, that's Beijing's ways to take out the anti government poor fractions out of the capital. Kind of like how Napoleon III rebuilt and gentrified Paris. You can still see the old Beijing in that twitter feed photos. I love the color of photos taken by film, so much more personality than digital camera.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:29
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whatever7 posted:You know how the real estate price is so high in Beijing now it effectively make every Beijing residence a middle class, that's Beijing's ways to take out the anti government poor fractions out of the capital. Kind of like how Napoleon III rebuilt and gentrified Paris. The anti-government forces were hardly driven by the poor of Beijing.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:53
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Sort of like how every Hong Konger is a millionaire until you ignore the value of primary residences. Then every Hong Konger is just housepoor.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:41
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http://multimedia.scmp.com/tiananmen/ This is a pretty cool overview of the events of May 35
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Jun 3, 2014 11:45
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Bloodnose posted:Sort of like how every Hong Konger is a millionaire until you ignore the value of primary residences. There are other step taken to make "non-Beijingnese" live in BJ very difficult. Its extremely difficult to get a Beijing Hukou (Household registration). The price in the black market is about 500k RMB each, so that 80k USD for a permit to live in Beijing if you want to have proper hospital and child education and other resident benefits. I believe you can sell you Beijing Hukou too. You can sell you hukou and your Beijing apartment and instantly afford a Canada investment immigration Visa. You know the high property price has the similar stabilizing effect in HK. Genuine effort has been made to lower the property price but faced strong resistance from the middle class. Hong Kongese rather see the youth live in modified container apartment than lower their property "investment". The difference between HK and China is that HK has a very weak government and everybody essentially work for the major property developers. China has a strong central government. Raising property price was not meant to be a money making scheme. However its increasing becoming a major part of revenue for the local governments. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 13:56
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What's the price of a Canadian investment visa?
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Jun 3, 2014 14:14
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It was 800k Canadian a couple years ago but they double it recently haha.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:06
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It's cheaper to get permanent residency in Malta. 
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Jun 3, 2014 15:11
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Canada cancelled the visa a couple months ago.
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Jun 3, 2014 15:17
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synertia posted:Everybody please check your privilege and stop talking about stuff because you're white. Actually white people have been pretty bad throughout history and are still pretty bad!!! seriously though, humans are terrible and we should all die Can anyone recommend a book and/or documentary that covers the late Qing dynasty to the end of the Chinese Civil War? Preferably an introductory level one Farecoal fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 02:26
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Farecoal posted:Actually white people have been pretty bad throughout history and are still pretty bad!!! I'd recommend Jonathan Spence's "The Search for Modern China." It covers in pretty good depth the Qing up through the modern day.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:19
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Farecoal posted:Actually white people have been pretty bad throughout history and are still pretty bad!!! See my previous post about "The Fall and Rise of China" from The Great Courses/Audible. Also go to edX and register for Harvard's China History courses. It's hands down the best produced online free courses I have ever watched. The first 6 courses cover from the legendary time to Qing. The next 3 courses will cover the fall of Qing to now. The courses is so professionally filmed. You can cut the courses into a mini series and it will destroy any history documentary from History/Discovery channels and almost match the quality stuff from BBC.
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Jun 4, 2014 05:45
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whatever7 posted:See my previous post about "The Fall and Rise of China" from The Great Courses/Audible. Thank you very much. On edX, is it the "ChinaX" thing? Farecoal fucked around with this message at 07:20 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 06:42
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Yes.
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Jun 4, 2014 07:30
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whatever7 posted:Also go to edX and register for Harvard's China History courses.
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Jun 4, 2014 17:46
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This is more of a cultural question, but how prevalent are religion / traditional spiritual 'stuff' for lack of a better term, especially as compared to Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc? Like I understand people in Japan don't actually believe their ancestor god exists and lives in the house but they still perform the ceremonies and rites. I've read that the Cultural Revolution had some pretty nasty effects on this? Is it being readopted by the new generation?
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Jun 4, 2014 20:02
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icantfindaname posted:This is more of a cultural question, but how prevalent are religion / traditional spiritual 'stuff' for lack of a better term, especially as compared to Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc? Like I understand people in Japan don't actually believe their ancestor god exists and lives in the house but they still perform the ceremonies and rites. I've read that the Cultural Revolution had some pretty nasty effects on this? Is it being readopted by the new generation? In my experience (so grain of salt and all), mainlanders are far more likely to try new/western religions than to go back to Daoism/Buddhism/Confucianism. So you see a lot of Christian churches opening up, both government-sanctioned and "grey market" ones, while the increase in domestic tourists going to places like Tai Shan are a lot less. Most of the mainlanders who go to Macau or Taiwan go to the "famous shrines" for photo ops, not to baibai.
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Jun 4, 2014 20:06
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On religion, I think it really depends on who you talk to. Younger folks or those interested in the west would dabble in Christianity. In a way, Christianity is still seen as "the new thing" back in early 2000's but nowadays people are starting to re-evaluate Buddhism and Daoism. Richer older business dudes definitely look inwards towards their own culture for personal fulfillment. That's why you also get people buying up ancient art and then bragging about their collections (and how much money they have). Then you have the crazy ninja missionaries in China who try to convert people left and right 
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Jun 4, 2014 20:20
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Anecdotally I notice a general attitude difference between my girlfriend (who's a native born mainlander) and a lot of my friends in college (who are either Taiwanese or children of immigrants to the US). The latter tend to be pretty fervent in everything they do, be it school or religion or whatever. By contrast, my girlfriend is fairly chill/lazy about work in general and is only vaguely spiritual* (same as me). I'm sure there are plenty of mainlanders that are just as fervent but it just seems like there's a pretty major filtering effect going on. *She does believe in occult stuff though like ghosts but that's about par the course for a lot of people here too (religious or otherwise).
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Jun 4, 2014 20:35
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Yeah this is super anecdotal. There's United International College in Zhuhai, Southern China. It's supposedly the first Liberal Arts school in China with extremely heavy Christian Influences. Bloodnose and I met a convert from there and she's all PRAISE JESUS. She's the one who is disturbed about prostitutes selling their bodies making decent money and going to hell instead of working dead end jobs and not going to heaven  I have been to a few Christian rallies and groups in Canada and Hong Kong when I was younger, it was all about sneaking bibles in China and running underground non-registered home churches. Funny how China is a prestige gig for reporters and missionaries. ESL teachers not so much 
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Jun 4, 2014 20:43
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