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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol June - Can't Afford the Education to Think of a Witty Thread Title
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Hypation
Jul 11, 2013

The White Witch never knew what hit her.

Quantum Mechanic posted:

The distribution being skewed doesn't suddenly make the mode random. It changes its position relative to the mean and median, yes. That's actually one of the ways you can quantify and measure skew.

Being able to do that presupposes you know the distribution or at least both the median and mean. But if all someone tells you is "the average is this" then you are screwed. This is why if someone is telling you something about the average value in a distribution; you have no idea whether that value is typical of an expected outcome or not. At least with the median result you know two things- what the median is and the fact that half the sample was higher and half lower.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:15
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# ? Jun 1, 2024 13:25
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The Before Times
Mar 8, 2014

Once upon a time, I would have thrown you halfway to the moon for a crack like that.

hooman posted:

Before you make any arguments about economy of scale, most of the universities costs aren't from building new buildings, they mostly have the infrastructure already there from 1992. It's about teaching aids, lecturers, labs, tutors, demonstrators which while yes can have some economy of scales, when you nearly double your student population poo poo gets hosed really fast.

In my experience from talking to lecturers/course coordinators for the last 5.5 years at my uni, a lot of the funding goes into research. Like, a disproportionate amount. BA students are shafted with this, with a huge amount of their fees going to research (not even related to their field),and a tiny amount going into the actual teaching of the course. A couple years ago the number of actual teaching weeks in a lot of my writing classes were reduced because they didn't have the funding to hire tutors for every week, so in a 13 week semester (not including exams/swot vac) there were 10 weeks in which we could get through that content. This semester, we haven't had class for the past two weeks in one of my courses, because the coordinator was asked to reduce teaching by one week. So while I think that research funding is very important, it'd also be nice if a good amount of my fees were to go to actually educating me.

I'm not sure if that would change in response to an increase in direct funding from the government, but I'd hope so.

e: the funding model doesn't apply to all unis, just UQ, and other unis is trying to claw back their international rankings by pumping money into research.

The Before Times fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jun 4, 2014

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:25
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hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.
Fun Shoe

Mr Chips posted:

The VC of UWA (who is paid >2x as much as his counterpart at Oxford) had this to say about it:

How in the gently caress does increasing domestic student fees help the university compete for overseas students? If anything, increasing costs here makes studying overseas a less relatively expensive option for domestic students. Also, since when is tuition meant to pay for research?

It's a bit tangential, but Australian universities have a history of spending large amounts of money on buildings in the last few years. Uni Adelaide have dropped $250 million on new buildings over the past 5 years, while crying poor when the NTEU wanted to negotiate staff benefits of about an extra million dollars a year.

You probably need new buildings when you have a 90% increase in student numbers TBH. I mean you're doubling the number of classes required. So I may be wrong about the costs. I haven't looked into it. I probably should.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:26
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Ler
Mar 23, 2005

I believe...
The percentage results from these Fairfax polls are comedic

http://www.smh.com.au/polls/federal-politics/political-opinion/blocking-the-budget-20140604-39i51.html#poll (ends in 35min)
http://www.smh.com.au/polls/federal-politics/liberal-party-leadership-20140602-39dox.html

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:28
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The Before Times
Mar 8, 2014

Once upon a time, I would have thrown you halfway to the moon for a crack like that.

Ler posted:

The percentage results from these Fairfax polls are comedic

http://www.smh.com.au/polls/federal-politics/political-opinion/blocking-the-budget-20140604-39i51.html#poll (ends in 35min)
http://www.smh.com.au/polls/federal-politics/liberal-party-leadership-20140602-39dox.html

Inanimate Carbon Rod for PM.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:31
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Seagull
Oct 9, 2012

give me a chip
Ugh I don't know what I want to happen because if Abbott got kicked out it'd be loving great because it couldn't happen to someone who deserved it more, but then Turnbull is presenting an unhated face for the Liberals and his neoliberal poo poo will probably get through without the general populace giving a poo poo.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:39
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open24hours
Jan 7, 2001

 http://sustainablecitiescollective.com/global-site-plans-grid/249701/real-density-versus-experienced-density-paris-le-de-france-france
http://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/density-mind-beholder.html

People here seem to enjoy density chat, so I'll post this. The best quote comes from the paraphrasing in the Treehugger article.

quote:

the denser, closer old buildings felt a lot less oppressive and dense than the towers, even though they were in fact significantly denser. It's how you pack them in, not how high you build,
* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:42
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Anidav
Feb 25, 2010

ahhh fuck its the rats again
 Turnbull is loving scary nowadays, I used to think he was a Labor turncoat but over the years I just realized he tends to hide his conservative agenda through big words and his radio voice.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:45
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Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?

hooman posted:

You probably need new buildings when you have a 90% increase in student numbers TBH. I mean you're doubling the number of classes required. So I may be wrong about the costs. I haven't looked into it. I probably should.

Don't get me wrong, if you looks at any uni's annual reports the bulk of the spending is on staff costs, both teaching and research. But they do have a prediliction for 'big' construction projects, especially the G8 unis. This seems especially short sighted with the increase in flexible course delivery options.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:50
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Lid
Feb 18, 2005

And the mercy seat is awaiting,
And I think my head is burning,
And in a way I'm yearning,
To be done with all this measuring of proof.
An eye for an eye
And a tooth for a tooth,
And anyway I told the truth,
And I'm not afraid to die.

quote:

30 per cent of university graduates to be out of work after finishing degree

Date
June 4, 2014

29 reading now
Comments 275

Matthew Knott, Heath Gilmore




Up to 65,000 university students - 30 per cent of graduates - will be jobless four months after finishing their studies, and those finding employment will be earning less, the federal government has forecast.

The predicted major downturn in graduate employment will occur at the same time student debts are expected to soar with the deregulation of university fees and an increased interest rate applied to student loans.
Tertiary HELP debt and repayment levels

Preliminary estimates also indicate that the amount of student debt owed to the government, which will never be repaid, could jump to $3 billion a year under the new rules.

Tim Higgins, a senior lecturer in actuarial studies at the ANU, said fee deregulation raised concerns about future budget blowouts as students load up on debt. ''There are no incentives for universities to manage the risk of loan non-payment because the government pays the shortfall,'' Dr Higgins said.

The budget papers show only 70 per cent of higher education graduates are expected to have a full-time job within four months of finishing a degree in 2016-17 - down from the 78 per cent predicted a year ago. This means 64,800 new graduates will be out of work, 17,000 more than predicted in last year's budget.

Graduate salaries are also expected to fall.

Starting salaries for higher education graduates, as a proportion of average male weekly earnings, are forecast to fall from 78 per cent this year to 74 per cent in 2016-17.

A spokesman for the Education Department said the figures reflect Treasury forecasts of a softer labour market in coming years, with unemployment forecast to rise to 6.25 per cent in the June quarter next year.

Graduates in full-time employment fell from 76 per cent in 2012 to 71 per cent last year, according to a Graduate Destination Survey.

Education Minister Christopher Pyne has justified fee deregulation by pointing out there are significant personal benefits to having a degree, with graduates earning about 75 per cent more than non-graduates - or about $1 million more over their lifetimes.

Greens higher education spokeswoman Lee Rhiannon said: ''It beggars belief the government would introduce these changes when their own department's figures show fewer graduates will be employed.''

On budget night the government announced that it would cut its contribution towards the cost of university courses by an average 20 per cent, saving $1.1 billion over three years. It will also reduce the annual indexation of its contribution, switching to the consumer price index.

To compensate the higher education sector, the government is allowing the universities to structure the fees they charge for different courses.

Students borrow money from the taxpayer to pay for their course. These loan payments are expected to increase from $6.6 billion this year to $12 billion in 2018, a Department of Education spokesman said, with another 80,000 participants accessing the system for the first time and the impact of fee deregulation.

Grattan Institute Higher Education program director Andrew Norton, and other academics, said the amount of unpaid debt arising from these student loans had the potential to grow dramatically.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...l#ixzz33efHNrOE

These are the governments own numbers so they can't even argue that this is academic manipulation.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 08:55
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ROFLBOT
Apr 1, 2005

Mr Chips posted:

The VC of UWA (who is paid >2x as much as his counterpart at Oxford) had this to say about it:

I read his statement too, there is no criticism of the government anywhere which is not surprising given he's a non-academic beancounter with links to Abbott/The Liberals...

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:06
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Ragingsheep
Nov 7, 2009
 How easy or hard would it be for a government to change HECS so that everyone with a debt is forced to pay regardless of income? (From a legalisation/legal perspective not public popularity one)

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:11
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Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

ABC posted:

Budget: Double-dealing Liberal power plays gave birth to contentious fuel excise

One of the budget's most contentious measures, the fuel excise, was born out of a double-dealing power play.

At the very top of the Government there was ferocious arguing, furious lobbying and extraordinary political manoeuvring, as senior Liberals tried to manipulate their Nationals colleagues.

This is the inside story.

Months out from budget day, senior ministers were searching for savings and contemplating something politically toxic. They wanted to resume indexing the fuel excise to ensure petrol prices rise in line with inflation. Treasury calculated the measure would reap $2.2 billion over the forward estimates and, most importantly, it would keep raising more and more money every year.

The hard-heads liked the idea but knew they had a problem. How would they get the Coalition's junior partner on board?

A cunning plan is born

Promising to pour money into roads would help, but higher petrol prices are still toxic in the bush, where people drive long distances. So they hatched a cunning plan. At budget time, Treasury routinely suggests putting the diesel fuel rebate on the sacrificial chopping block. Worth around $5.5 billion a year, critics call the rebate a hand out, but farmers and miners, who use diesel to run machinery and vehicles vital to their operations, consider it a Holy Grail. They get a rebate because they use their trucks off road and because the diesel is a business input. It is considered unfair and inefficient to slug inputs rather than outputs.

Some ministers liked the look of the potential savings but others considered it crazy and said so. Cabinet was split. Julie Bishop, a West Australian, argued strenuously against touching the rebate. Trade Minister Andrew Robb was equally vocal, telling colleagues the proposed change was "anti-investment" and would undermine Tony Abbott's mantra that Australia is "open for business".

The Nationals were apoplectic, with one saying "this is a fight we have to win". Barnaby Joyce, the Agriculture Minister, is said to have been "non-negotiable" over the issue.

Outside Parliament, powerful lobby groups were loading their muskets and sharpening their bayonets. The farmers talked about tractors on the lawns of Parliament House. The miners warned of World War IV - World War III having been its devastatingly successful campaign against Kevin Rudd's super-profits tax.

'Play the Nats'

But it was all a game. Senior Liberals have told the ABC they were never serious about cutting the diesel fuel rebate. They are boasting it was a tactic to "play the Nats"; the rebate was put on the agenda and deliberately leaked to inflame the Nationals so the party would support the higher fuel excise as the lesser of two evils. "[Changing the rebate] was never the plan," one senior source declared. "Gina and Twiggy would've come after us" – a reference to two of Australia's richest miners, Gina Rinehart and Andrew Forrest.

Different ministers have different perspectives on who used whom and how. The Cabinet and razor gang processes are notoriously difficult to penetrate, but the very fact senior Liberals are willing to say the sort of things they're saying – effectively rubbing the Nationals' noses in diesel – will only add fuel to this fire.

Jesus Christ ABC, you can use more than one sentence in a loving paragraph.

E: Also, lol.

Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Jun 4, 2014

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:17
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Sorcery
Jul 3, 2012

Captain Pissweak posted:

Ugh I don't know what I want to happen because if Abbott got kicked out it'd be loving great because it couldn't happen to someone who deserved it more, but then Turnbull is presenting an unhated face for the Liberals and his neoliberal poo poo will probably get through without the general populace giving a poo poo.

Don't worry. The Liberal Party, state or federal, will remain a fuckin shambles no matter who's at the helm. Same applies to Labor.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:18
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Shunkymonky
Sep 10, 2006
'sup
I did a webinar today for tax issues in the next financial year. The amount of things that are "Well the government wants to do this, but nothings passed, so we have no idea" was wonderful.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:18
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Cartoon
Jun 20, 2008

poop

Doctor Spaceman posted:

Jesus Christ ABC, you can use more than one sentence in a loving paragraph.

While I fully accept my posts are unreadable, I always sub edit media quotes so they resemble properly composed paragraphs. It isn't that hard really.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:22
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Doctor Spaceman
Jul 6, 2010

"Everyone's entitled to their point of view, but that's seriously a weird one."

Cartoon posted:

While I fully accept my posts are unreadable, I always sub edit media quotes so they resemble properly composed paragraphs. It isn't that hard really.

Yeah, :effort: for me that time.

They've probably done some study on it for mobile viewing or whatever.

E: Fixed.

Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 09:32 on Jun 4, 2014

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:26
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The Before Times
Mar 8, 2014

Once upon a time, I would have thrown you halfway to the moon for a crack like that.

Ragingsheep posted:

How easy or hard would it be for a government to change HECS so that everyone with a debt is forced to pay regardless of income? (From a legalisation/legal perspective not public popularity one)

I think it would be a matter of amending the legislation. So you'd have to pass a bill through the lower house and the senate, which actually kind of does make it a public popularity issue because you wouldn't vote for that bill if you wanted to get re-elected. The actual legality of changing the loan terms is debatable but from a practical perspective, it'd be just about as easy as amending any other part of the legislation (such as the rate at which the debt is indexed).

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:26
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I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008
 Is there like a maximum IQ to join the Nationals?

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:27
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Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?

Ragingsheep posted:

How easy or hard would it be for a government to change HECS so that everyone with a debt is forced to pay regardless of income? (From a legalisation/legal perspective not public popularity one)
How could someone with no money/income be forced to pay it off?

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:27
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CATTASTIC
Mar 31, 2010

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Is there like a maximum IQ to join the Nationals?

Yeah but you've disqualified yourself by successfully typing that sentence.

CATTASTIC fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Jun 4, 2014

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:33
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CATTASTIC
Mar 31, 2010

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Eggchat

WSJ posted:

Australia Targets Alleged Attempt to Manipulate Egg Prices
Competition Regulator Takes Legal Action Against Industry Body, Two Producers

Updated May 28, 2014

SYDNEY—Regulators are cracking down on Australia's egg industry, claiming some of its key players tried to form a cartel to manipulate prices.

The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission said Wednesday that it has filed a civil case in the Federal Court against a major industry services body, the Australian Egg Corporation Ltd., and two individual egg producers.

Among its claims are that AEC, fearing a supply glut, encouraged dozens of members to cull hens and destroy eggs to diminish supply and push up prices.

The ACCC said the encouragement started in 2010 and was made through messages in various member publications. This was followed in February 2012 by a "crisis meeting" in Sydney, at which members discussed taking a coordinated approach to cutting output, the regulator said.

An AEC spokesman said the group will co-operate fully with the ACCC, but otherwise couldn't comment because the matter is before the court.

The ACCC has also taken action against two of the country's largest egg producers, Farm Pride Foods Ltd. and privately held Ironside Management Services.

Jeff Ironside, the head of Ironside Management Services, is also chairman of the AEC and steered the Sydney meeting in 2012. He didn't return calls seeking comment.

A spokeswoman for Farm Pride Foods declined to comment.

A slideshow at the crisis meeting suggested producers could dispose of eggs by either donating them to charity, or dumping or burying them, according to court documents filed Monday and seen by The Wall Street Journal. It was also suggested the number of laying hens could be reduced through culling, in an industry-coordinated fashion, with culling numbers assessed by an independent auditor.

Annual egg consumption in Australia has grown over the past five years as marketing efforts combating an association with high cholesterol gained traction, according to a report on the industry released this month by IBIS World. Demand for free-range eggs in particular is booming, as consumers grow increasingly concerned about animal welfare.

According to the court documents filed by the ACCC Monday, the AEC was concerned that production growth in 2011 had exceeded demand growth by a factor of 4.9%.

The gross value of eggs produced in Australia in the fiscal year through June 2013 was 625.6 million Australian dollars (US$579.4 million) at farm-gate prices, up 7% from the previous year, government figures show.

AEC collects levies from more than 100 egg producers in exchange for services such as marketing and research.
* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:40
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Calico Noose
Jun 26, 2010

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Is there like a maximum IQ to join the Nationals?


Your IQ isn't allowed to exceed the number of tractors you own.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:40
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A Good Username
Oct 10, 2007

Mr Chips posted:

How could someone with no money/income be forced to pay it off?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:40
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Gough Suppressant
Nov 14, 2008

Mr Chips posted:

How could someone with no money/income be forced to pay it off?

Sell themselves into slavery.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:42
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G-Spot Run
Jun 28, 2005

Mr Chips posted:

How could someone with no money/income be forced to pay it off?

If you turn it into a real debt the possibilities for collection agencies are endless.

That's why everyone should be making GBS threads their loving pants right now. Don't think 1 step ahead to index rates and $7 co-pays, think 3 to 4 steps ahead to private debts and co-pay increases at the same rate as HECS increased over the years.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:43
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CROWS EVERYWHERE
Dec 17, 2012

CAW CAW CAW

Dinosaur Gum

Shunkymonky posted:

I did a webinar today for tax issues in the next financial year. The amount of things that are "Well the government wants to do this, but nothings passed, so we have no idea" was wonderful.

All my discussions with Centrelink are basically this too. There are a lot of people very concerned about a lot of things and they can't really give much other advice than "Who the gently caress knows (but you're probably fukt)".

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 09:43
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CrazyTolradi
Oct 2, 2011

It feels so good to be so bad.....at posting.

Kat Delacour posted:

If you turn it into a real debt the possibilities for collection agencies are endless.

That's why everyone should be making GBS threads their loving pants right now. Don't think 1 step ahead to index rates and $7 co-pays, think 3 to 4 steps ahead to private debts and co-pay increases at the same rate as HECS increased over the years.

Actually, if you look at a worst case scenario here (unemployed, no real assets) it's pretty hard for them to do anything but bankrupt you..which does nothing since you've got gently caress all anyway and are living on benefits (which cannot be collected by a debt collection agency, with the exception if you owe Centrelink in the event of which they can and will take money out of your benefits). They COULD try to sue you for it, but since you're on benefits it's unlikely as they won't be able to recoup anything from you due to you being a total poor. It's when you have actual income and assets debt collection agencies drool because they can sink their teeth into those and get some decent money out of you.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 10:03
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Foundry Dancer
Apr 21, 2005

hooman posted:

Before you make any arguments about economy of scale, most of the universities costs aren't from building new buildings, they mostly have the infrastructure already there from 1992. It's about teaching aids, lecturers, labs, tutors, demonstrators which while yes can have some economy of scales, when you nearly double your student population poo poo gets hosed really fast.

:siren: Anecdote incoming :siren:

Last semester I tutored a first year engineering course with over 1100 students, the largest subject I've ever tutored. This raised an intersting issue. How do you lecture to 1100 students? We don't even have a lecture theatre big enough, so the cohort was divided into two and an identical lecture was given twice each week. So now the lecturers schedule has just doubled. Yay productivity! That's to say nothing of marking 1100 pieces of assessment every couple of weeks, and 1100 exams twice a semester. I'm not sure what my point is here except that cutting funding to education is dumb.

Foundry Dancer fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Jun 4, 2014

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:03
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simmyb
Sep 29, 2005

Foundry Dancer posted:

:siren: Anecdote incoming :siren:

Last semester I tutored a first year engineering course with over 1100 students, the largest subject I've ever tutored. This raised an intersting issue. How do you lecture to 1100 students? We don't even have a lecture theatre big enough, so the cohort was divided into two and an identical lecture was given twice each week. So now the lecturers schedule has just doubled. Yay productivity! That's to say nothing of marking 1100 pieces of assessment every couple of weeks, and 1100 exams twice a semester. I'm not sure what my point is here except that cutting funding to education is dumb.

When I did 1st year engineering at Monash they booked more students into lecture timeslots than the capacity of the largest lecture theatre they had.

By about 100. The lecturer claimed it was because "there is so many dropouts in the first couple weeks" but it was still a problem til at least mid-late semester :confused:

E: this is in 2006

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:07
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Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?

simmyb posted:

When I did 1st year engineering at Monash they booked more students into lecture timeslots than the capacity of the largest lecture theatre they had.

By about 100. The lecturer claimed it was because "there is so many dropouts in the first couple weeks" but it was still a problem til at least mid-late semester :confused:

E: this is in 2006
The dumb thing is that there's a whole host of technical solutions to this problems. Pre-record lectures, flip the classroom and have a bunch of tutorials, which would save lecturers time.

Alternatively, have live video links between theatres. Flinders were doing this almost a decade ago.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:28
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You Am I
May 20, 2001

Me @ your poasting

A Good Username posted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debtors%27_prison

lol of course the US would still have Debtors' Prisons.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:33
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I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008
 Record lectures then no one will show up to class. Problem solved.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:37
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Mr Chips
Jun 27, 2007
Whose arse do I have to blow smoke up to get rid of this baby?

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Record lectures then no one will show up to class. Problem solved.

Actually, Uni of New England did a study on this and it improved student retention throughout the semester.

Somewhat surprisingly, uni academics are very resistant to evidence based teaching (I've had flaming rows with ones that teach things like evidence based medicine but who didn't want to see if making lecture recordings available improved student learning).

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:45
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EvilElmo
May 10, 2009
 So, something awful was mentioned in another news.com.au article today.

quote:

The Slenderman myth is not new. It was created during 2009 on the SomethingAwful web forum as an experiment in the creation of folklore-like images through photo manipulation.
* # ? Jun 4, 2014 11:57
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I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

Oh crap we missed the apology on the ABC

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 12:09
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in the miso soup
Aug 16, 2013
 I'm sure there's a dog fucker joke to be made there.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 12:16
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xutech
Mar 4, 2011

EIIST

Jumpingmanjim posted:

Is there like a maximum IQ to join the Nationals?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7l2doxjnn3Y

Joh - Never forget.

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 12:24
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I would blow Dane Cook
Dec 26, 2008

in the miso soup posted:

I'm sure there's a dog fucker joke to be made there.
* # ? Jun 4, 2014 12:25
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# ? Jun 1, 2024 13:25
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Sisgmund
Jan 31, 2006

 Friendly Jordies owning bones in case anybody hasn't seen it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG-x9DewByY

* # ? Jun 4, 2014 12:35
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Auspol June - Can't Afford the Education to Think of a Witty Thread Title
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