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JediTalentAgent posted:or introduce Chapel or Rand. They did introduce Chapel in this movie. Carol is talking to Kirk and distinctly mentions Chapel as a nurse he slept with, but forgot, and who subsequently went as far out into space as she could just to get away from him.
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May 21, 2014 01:25
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Does anyone else think the Star Trek reboot has put way too much effort into establishing that Kirk is a total horndog? I watched the entire original series as a kid but "Kirk bones everything" was not something I picked up on until I started seeing pop culture references about it. On balance I'd say Kirk had about as many love interests as Spock did. But then I'm probably blocking out the terrible episodes I don't want to remember. For the sake of characterization sure it's all right. But when the movie goes out of its way to rewrite canon so that Kirk was banging TOS characters? I mean come on.
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May 21, 2014 02:33
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Kirk in the original series was also a total nerd remembered for always being hidden under a stack of books at the Academy who tended to try to avoid violence and use intelligence, understanding and diplomacy to get out of situations. (Although he would bust out the double-handed kung fu if absolutely necessary). He was an all-around legendarily great captain who dealt with insane situations well, not a total cowboy. The reboots rebooted the cultural perception of Kirk, not Kirk as he actually tended to be. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:32 on May 21, 2014 |
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May 21, 2014 07:29
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MikeJF posted:Kirk in the original series was also a total nerd remembered for always being hidden under a stack of books at the Academy who tended to try to avoid violence and use intelligence, understanding and diplomacy to get out of situations. (Although he would bust out the double-handed kung fu if absolutely necessary). He was an all-around legendarily great captain who dealt with insane situations well, not a total cowboy. The glaring flaws in Reboot-Kirk's personality and actions help to highlight this. I think the movies are deliberately posing the current cultural perception of Kirk as a silly baby with a lot of growing up to do. Hence the opening scene, where Kirk violates the Prime Directive to save a civilisation almost on impulse, just doing Kirk Stuff. When people step to him about it, he has nothing to say because he's just sort of doing what he does. Hopefully in ST3 he'll transition more into an authentic or reasoned person.
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May 21, 2014 14:00
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Also, the character we see in the new movies is ten or so years younger than when we first see Kirk in the Original Series. Beyond that, there may be a few odd mentions of Kirk being bookish, but if you actually sit down and watch TOS, Kirk punches stuff constantly. The public perception of Captain Kirk may be exaggerated, but it's definitely all there in the source material.
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May 21, 2014 15:44
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DrNutt posted:Also, the character we see in the new movies is ten or so years younger than when we first see Kirk in the Original Series. Beyond that, there may be a few odd mentions of Kirk being bookish, but if you actually sit down and watch TOS, Kirk punches stuff constantly. The public perception of Captain Kirk may be exaggerated, but it's definitely all there in the source material. That might just be because scenes like Kirk awkwardly fighting off that lizard dude are more memorable and make for better still images than the more talky scenes, which the show did have plenty of as well.
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May 21, 2014 15:54
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I do feel like the new Kirk does undergo real growth and maturation in the movies, so maybe it's just absolutely intentional.
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May 21, 2014 17:50
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Bob Quixote posted:That might just be because scenes like Kirk awkwardly fighting off that lizard dude are more memorable and make for better still images than the more talky scenes, which the show did have plenty of as well. Yeah there are plenty of episodes where Kirk uses trickery or out-smarts his way out of a situation. Plnety of classic episodes too like Devil in the Dark where the pragmatic, logical Spock suggestion is to kill something ASAP as a foil to Kirk deciding to use reason. But for the purposes of a stand alone movie I can understand them simplifying the portrayals a bit.
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May 21, 2014 18:04
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They even kind of do this in the first JJTrek, where Kirk baits Spock into attacking him in order for everyone (including Spock) to realize that his judgement is compromised.
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May 21, 2014 19:13
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Snak posted:They even kind of do this in the first JJTrek, where Kirk baits Spock into attacking him in order for everyone (including Spock) to realize that his judgement is compromised. The first JJTrek also has that scene where Kirk offers to let Nero surrender and Spock is surprised and upset by that. Pretty similar to Spocks reaction about the Horta actually.
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May 21, 2014 22:00
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I just re-watched the movie on Netflix. I remember the theatrical release having some eye-rolling "dedicated to America's post 9-11 soliders" card at the end. Am I crazy or did that actually exist? Didn't seem to see it on the home release.
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May 22, 2014 02:43
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I just re-watched the movie on Netflix. I remember the theatrical release having some eye-rolling "dedicated to America's post 9-11 soliders" card at the end. Am I crazy or did that actually exist? Didn't seem to see it on the home release. It did exist, but it was probably for theatrical release only. It's not strange to dedicate a performance, rather than a performance piece, to someone, so I guess this is kind of the same thing.
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May 22, 2014 03:07
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In the reboot, how many years have taken place between the two films?
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May 22, 2014 20:48
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I was born in 1972, and I have grown up with Star Trek TOS, the films and onto The Next Generation etc... I can honestly say, knowing much of the lore as a trekie that STITD was loving AWESOME. I just don't understand all the hate, it was a great amalgamation of two different timelines that experienced similar happenings. loving brilliant stuff.
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May 23, 2014 20:50
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Drink-Mix Man posted:I just re-watched the movie on Netflix. I remember the theatrical release having some eye-rolling "dedicated to America's post 9-11 soliders" card at the end. Am I crazy or did that actually exist? Didn't seem to see it on the home release. You are not crazy....but poo poo I didn't even realize they removed that. I still really like this film. It's not perfect and I agree with a lot of the issues people take with it, but it's still just so drat fun. Most of the people I speak with that just HATE the film seem to fixate on Khan and pretty much come off like it was a sacred cow to them and they can't deal with it. It's very difficult to continue taking them seriously once they reveal that. They often don't even specifically say what their issues with Khan were, and seem to simply be mad he got re-done at all.
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May 23, 2014 21:49
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I don't think the issue with Khan is that he was re-done at all, but it was more a combination of things: - Abrams' inexplicable love of his mystery box, and the subsequent obfuscation in all interviews and promo materials just made it kind of eye-rolling as soon as the word got out that yes, Cumberbatch was Khan. - Khan, as a character, isn't essential to the story in the slightest (which makes the "MY NAME ... IS KHAN  " reveal so hilariously bad).- That reveal ties in with the other big problem with the film, in that it goes for rewards that haven't been earned. Spock's death scene in Wrath of Khan works because the audience has seen these characters for years. By the time of Into Darkness, these versions have had one movie in which they were total antagonists to one another, and they spend about 75 percent of Into Darkness antagonizing each other -- the friendship isn't earned, and it doesn't work. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't hate Into Darkness and I've actually grown to like it quite a bit on subsequent viewings ... but it is a terribly frustrating movie in that for everything it does right, it does just as much wrong. Timby fucked around with this message at 23:10 on May 23, 2014 |
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May 23, 2014 22:23
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I think the movie "earns" the Kirk death. A major theme of the two JJTreks is Spock learning how to be human from Kirk, so Spock mimicking Kirk's reaction in the inverse call-back is a perfect demonstration of his education--he literally does exactly what his "teacher" has done in that exact situation. Additionally, Pine and Quinto are fantastic in that scene. They provide such deep pathos that their version easily holds its own against the original.
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May 24, 2014 05:23
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lizardman posted:I am now imagining Alice Eve suddenly making a snarling face and hissing "My name is KHAN!" and the movie subsequently continuing with her as Khan and Benedict Cumberbatch as Carol Marcus and I am desperately trying to keep from laughing in the office. You know what? The problem wasn't that they rehashed too much old Trek. They didn't rehash ENOUGH! We could have had them toss in the plot from the episode "Turnabout Intruder" too. We could have had it, and they threw the chance away!
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May 24, 2014 07:54
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I think the whole notion of "earning" a death is ridiculous because there's been plenty of movies where an important character dies in the sequel and normal people usually care. The whole point of these reboots is that you don't need 30+ year old backstory for the audience they're making this for to care when bad things happen to main characters.
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Jun 1, 2014 00:45
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well yeah, the movie should have been able to sell us on Kirk and Spock having some kind of emotional connection in its own right, but it didn't.
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Jun 1, 2014 00:50
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I've started to wonder if throwing Khan into the mix in the film was maybe to lessen the "Starfleet leadership is secretly EVIL" theme that develops due to the conspiracy. By distracting the audience with Khan, him opening and closing the film as the villain, no one thinks about the Starfleet conspiracy in the middle. Movie ends with Starfleet being reborn as a good and innocent organization and no one really has to deal with the consequences of a leadership tried to trick them into war. I can't really remember, but outside of Khan was anyone actually held accountable for their actions in the conspiracy?
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Jun 1, 2014 04:26
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JediTalentAgent posted:I've started to wonder if throwing Khan into the mix in the film was maybe to lessen the "Starfleet leadership is secretly EVIL" theme that develops due to the conspiracy. Khan fucken killed him. You know a conspiracy's bad when the villain is enacting justice.
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Jun 1, 2014 04:29
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Hbomberguy posted:Khan fucken killed him. You know a conspiracy's bad when the villain is enacting justice. That's what I sort of mean. There's really no big disgrace or fall for him. He's dead, and he didn't go out in a blaze of glory declaring his rightousness or captured to have his actions brought to the light and have to answer for them. Hell, despite that, almost every horrible thing in the movie is done by Khan and not the conspiracy. The closest thing the conspiracy managed to almost pull off was a war and carpet bombing an unoccupied section of Kronos, nearly destroy the Enterprise. But all the killings, bombings, assassinations and destruction of a city was on Khan. He's not even killed or ended by our heroic leads, I guess as to not sully their hands by killing their superior officer and raising all sorts of moral issues with that. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 04:39
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Hbomberguy posted:Khan fucken killed him. You know a conspiracy's bad when the villain is enacting justice. I think it's less Justice and more "You forced me to do poo poo with a gun pointed at my family's head, made me think you killed them, and gently caress you."
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Jun 1, 2014 05:54
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Harime Nui posted:well yeah, the movie should have been able to sell us on Kirk and Spock having some kind of emotional connection in its own right, but it didn't.
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Jun 1, 2014 16:53
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See the only people I know that had trouble digesting that Kirk and Spock become buddies were people who had the expectation from watching old Star Trek. The non-Trekkies or people who don't even know the characters names going into it had no issue. Even Where No Man Has Gone Before started Kirk and Spock off to a rivalrous relationship, with Kirk kind of thinking Spock's a weirdo until the two learn that each other is right about things sometimes and putting ego past them to work together. The first season of the show is ripe with Spock and Kirk bickering (albeit a bit different considering the characters are older and the show was written in the 60s) and still not getting that they can both be wrong sometimes despite it happening that way in the last episode. quote:That was an issue I had with the first film. Kirk and Spock are at each other's throats right up until they go to Nero's ship, then suddenly they're best buddies (Spock now being on first name terms), with nothing to justify it other than nearly half a century's expectation that "We know Kirk and Spock are going to be friends". Remember too that even though they have a falling out at the beginning of the movie, they've been working together for a year prior and would at least be on a work friends basis with each other. I know I've been accidentally screwed over by friends at work who think they're doing the right thing assuming the same for me in the past. The Golden Gael fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 1, 2014 |
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Jun 1, 2014 19:57
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Something I think really informs the strangeness of the Kirk/Spock friendship in the rebooted films is that they're also working off expectations pushed on them by Old Spock. He essentially tells them that they're "destined to be best friends," and so they're trying to play those roles because the future has told them they have to. Sure, they're also gradually developing that affection on their own, but that strange specter of prophecy hangs over them as well. I think that's a big part of their many conflicts throughout those films - they're pushed into this close friendship without having strictly earned it yet, so there are naturally growing pains.
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Jun 1, 2014 20:29
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I think its just a poorly written script that was created to strip the franchise down to its most profitable elements. Terrorist conspiracies, revenge stories and exploding cities are popular right now so those elements got thrown in. Khan was shoehorned in because of nostalgia and also because they thought he'd give the plot a bit more gravity than it'd otherwise have. Alice Eve was there for T and A. The rest of the script was basically just an engine to get from one action scene to the next. Kirk and Spock are enemies when the script needs an intense scene, they are friends when the script needs an emotional scene, Spock is a psychopathic punching machine when the script needs an action scene, etc. There are movies out there where it makes sense to dig into the subtext of the character's actions in the way that some goons in this thread are doing. But this movie aint one of those movies. It was an incredibly dumb summer blockbuster film, and the one thing they didn't really bother to include when putting together this movie was a script that was in any way original or had even an even passingly good story.
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Jun 1, 2014 22:06
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Helsing posted:I think its just a poorly written script that was created to strip the franchise down to its most profitable elements. Terrorist conspiracies, revenge stories and exploding cities are popular right now so those elements got thrown in. Khan was shoehorned in because of nostalgia and also because they thought he'd give the plot a bit more gravity than it'd otherwise have. Alice Eve was there for T and A. The rest of the script was basically just an engine to get from one action scene to the next. Kirk and Spock are enemies when the script needs an intense scene, they are friends when the script needs an emotional scene, Spock is a psychopathic punching machine when the script needs an action scene, etc. Actually, this is incredibly idiotic cynicism.
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Jun 1, 2014 22:29
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Actually, this is incredibly idiotic cynicism. Also T&A hasn't never been a profitable element to Star Trek, except maybe some Enterprise episodes (I'll never see them).
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Jun 1, 2014 22:48
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Corek posted:Also T&A hasn't never been a profitable element to Star Trek, except maybe some Enterprise episodes (I'll never see them). William Ware Theiss would have some strong words for you on that subject if he wasn't dead as poo poo.
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Jun 1, 2014 23:02
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Let's put these women in incredibly short skirts that they must constantly adjust because that would be a practical clothing choice for exploring the universe.
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Jun 1, 2014 23:09
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PeterWeller posted:Let's put these women in incredibly short skirts that they must constantly adjust because that would be a practical clothing choice for exploring the universe. My favorite story about that is how Nichelle Nichols claims that the female cast requested the skirts be so loving short, and you can apparently see her actively hiking them up higher in the background of shots she's in.
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Jun 1, 2014 23:15
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The new Star Trek theme sounds like it belongs to a detective thriller set in the late 19th century. I rewatched Into Darkness. Some things it reinforced were the excellent cast somewhat wasted in an overstuffed plot and just how much it doesn't work on its own. In the first 10 minutes the camera does a literal 10 second zoom in on Cumberbatch's face while ominous music swells. Without knowing who he is it's laughable. The following scene with Kirk in bed with a pair of alien twins was worth a chuckle though. Michael Fassbender would have been a great Khan. I think he doesn't get cast as villains as much as you'd expect because he's catapulted to lead roles already. drat his IMDB article says he's playing lead roles in two upcoming movies in addition to reprising roles in upcoming sequels. With his first major big screen role in 2009. Doing pretty well for himself. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 10:27
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I guess it's bad to go to fanfictionville but it would have been a so much better movie if Khan had helped them kill Marcus and then just joined starfleet. Before you know it he'd be running the place!
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Jun 4, 2014 10:40
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Corek posted:Also T&A hasn't never been a profitable element to Star Trek, except maybe some Enterprise episodes (I'll never see them). Hasn't stopped them from trying. Are green girls not a thing? Hahaha what the gently caress is going on with Admiral Robocop's shoulder pads? I wonder if the multiple instances of "everyone on this ship is going to die" from different characters' mouths was intentional. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 10:51
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Harime Nui posted:I guess it's bad to go to fanfictionville but it would have been a so much better movie if Khan had helped them kill Marcus and then just joined starfleet. Before you know it he'd be running the place! That sort of subverts the whole point of the movie though. It's like if the AI Nazi from Captain America killed off the main Hydra leader...so he could join SHIELD afterwards. It's just setting up another conspiracy to develop within Starfleet.
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Jun 4, 2014 14:26
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computer parts posted:That sort of subverts the whole point of the movie though. It's like if the AI Nazi from Captain America killed off the main Hydra leader...so he could join SHIELD afterwards. It's just setting up another conspiracy to develop within Starfleet. Also the AI Nazi was already a part of SHIELD, but whatever.
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Jun 4, 2014 15:07
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Harime Nui posted:I guess it's bad to go to fanfictionville but it would have been a so much better movie if Khan had helped them kill Marcus and then just joined starfleet. Before you know it he'd be running the place! I thought the movie was going in a similar direction right up until the point where they're on Marcus's ship and Kirk tells Scotty to drop him once they get to the bridge. I didn't think Khan would join Starfleet, but maybe help Kirk defeat Marcus then collect his frozen crew and shove off to parts unknown. This route probably wouldn't jive with the fact that he killed Kirk's father figure, but it would've been an interesting inversion of the adversarial relationship between Kirk and Khan and could've been a good chance to show that the series was going to take old characters in new directions. Instead they literally phone a guy from the old movies who tells them that no, Khan is 100% evil and they have to fight him.
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Jun 4, 2014 15:20
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Spakstik posted:I thought the movie was going in a similar direction right up until the point where they're on Marcus's ship and Kirk tells Scotty to drop him once they get to the bridge. I didn't think Khan would join Starfleet, but maybe help Kirk defeat Marcus then collect his frozen crew and shove off to parts unknown. This route probably wouldn't jive with the fact that he killed Kirk's father figure, but it would've been an interesting inversion of the adversarial relationship between Kirk and Khan and could've been a good chance to show that the series was going to take old characters in new directions. Instead they literally phone a guy from the old movies who tells them that no, Khan is 100% evil and they have to fight him. It'd also be a nice callback to Khan's portrayal in Space Seed.
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Jun 4, 2014 15:24
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