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Chill la Chill posted:The HEMS group will never stop being funny to me. I don't think I've ever seen a price below retail there. I'm actually surprised I don't see more people just straight up asking to trade for a car with a dozen Useas with the prices they're asking. You must not pay much attention. I buy and sell there at under retail all the time.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:12
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BizarroAzrael posted:There's Harvester of Souls/Soul of the Harvest out of Avacyn Restored, if that counts? And Rakdos's Return and Sphinx's Revelation mirror opposites mechanically, except Sphinx's is instant. And broken for that reason. Rev is a lot of things but broken is not one of them. It's just a fairly strong card for standard.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:18
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Stinky Pit posted:MTG Speculators are like Social Justice Warriors in that they are a tiny group of people who make a lot of noise thanks to the ridiculous echo chamber of the internet but their impact on the actual price of magic cards/advocacy for the groups they claim to represent is nearly non existent. Whatever price spikes speculators generate evaporate as quickly as they appear without real demand. Stinky Pit posted:Shocklands have been 10-20 Dollars during their time in standard. Dropping down as low as the 7-8 dollar range at times. That's right inline with what we've seen from other cycles of rare lands, Woodland Cemetary was 20 dollars once, So was Seachrome Coast, they bounced around 10-20 depending the meta and that's exactly what we are seeing Shocks do. I should have been more clear that I'm curious about the effect hoarding will have on prices post rotation than on how they've been throughout standard. I don't think finance has done anything dramatic to shocks in standard because it's not a good time to sit on them since they're seeing play and in high demand. But once rotation hits there's going to be a lot of copies that Standard only players will want to offload to pick up stuff for the new standard and I wonder if they're going to crater like every other dual that leaves standard and then slowly climb back up until they're back in standard or if they're going to stay right around 10 and go up from there. Sure, shocks are miles better than the scars lands or the buddy lands, but are they twice the price good? Sulfur Falls sees more play in modern than 8 of the shocks right now and has been out of print for awhile now with a supposedly smaller print run than RTR but still trails the cheapest shocks by a couple of bucks. It's hard to look at that and agree with stuff like this: Chas Andres posted:I doubt these cards will drop at all at rotation, and we will probably see a few of them hit $20-$30 as soon as next spring.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:22
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The discussion has largely moved on from it as a specific card, but I just want to point out that when the observation is that Phyrexian Obliterator being a mythic rare whose price seems unreasonable in light of its actual usage, then observing that other cards from the same era who share its characteristics (relatively low Constructed penetration, &c.) have similar prices doesn't necessarily mean Obliterator is reasonable--it could just mean they're all being unreasonable together. Of course people disagree on what is 'reasonable' all the time. For plenty of people $200 Tarmogoyfs are reasonable because it got there via perfectly explicable free-market processes and in these people's minds perhaps that's all that's needed to apply the stamp of moral approbation. That's at least an internally consistent ideology, or it can be, but they shouldn't be surprised when people disagree with its premises.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:35
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Ojetor posted:I dunno if there's an arcana, but off the top of my head: Mirri, Cat Warrior and Mirri the Cursed http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=+[mirri]||type=+[mirri]||subtype=+[mirri]
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Jun 4, 2014 21:35
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Ascendant Evincar <> Crovax, Ascendant Hero Even outside of the explicitly timeshifted cards, Time Spiral block had quite a few of these "alternate future"-style cards.
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Jun 4, 2014 21:40
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Glad people enjoyed that earlier, I was just killing time waiting for poo poo to compile for work. I wonder if I could get a hold of the raw pricing history stuff, along with historical decklist data to sync up with it.....  I have no life.jassi007 posted:Good post. One thing, your post addresses the price of the original prints. I was curious about the new reprints. The data is, weird. Thoughtseize, a card that see's heavy play in standard, is currently $16.9 according to mtgoldfish, which I think is the same chart you were using. Thats less than 1/2 of the lorwyn print. Temple garden is 83% of the original print, and mutavault is 79%. Hallowed fountain is 59%. For a lot of people, like me, who are more intersted in picking up at a low price rather than the value of the original holding, I'm not even sure which price we'd use to speculate? Their post Zen price, or the jump after the scg price hike? We could see $15-20 fetches in standard, or we could see $25-35 fetches? That's partly why I chose the examples I did. There's a HUGE price gap on things like Thoughtseize that have very distinct art in the original version vs the new, whereas things like the fetches are somewhat bland and not as noticeable...people seem less willing to pay for the art difference, but happy to shell it out for Thoughtseize. There's also a sort of "price memory" effect I've noticed, where, even if a card's price increase was completely ridiculous and the card is seeing no play, people can't shake the association between that card and its value, and it tends to stabilize higher than its original level. This is why I loving loathe economics. I want variables I can isolate.....
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Jun 4, 2014 21:46
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 Patrick the Mind Sculptor
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Jun 4, 2014 21:50
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BaronVonVaderham posted:This is why I loving loathe economics. I want variables I can isolate..... you should read More Heat Than Light, it rules.
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Jun 4, 2014 22:03
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Kasonic posted:I know Magic has done more pieces like Triumph of Ferocity/Triumph of Cruelty or Wort, Boggart Auntie/Wort the Raidmother, of dualities or before/afters outside of Lorwyn block. Is there an Arcana article somewhere or does anyone know of more like this? Conversion literally has a mountain painted onto one of the base set's Plains The dude on Justice shows up again on Surge of Strength before succumbing to Dystopia. Preferred Selection and Mortal Wound are a before and after. Desperate Gambit leads into Debt of Loyalty Argivian Find leads into Argivian Restoration Tempest block has a whole storyboard running through it. The Seventh Edition version of Inspiration got Flash Countered in Eighth Edition. Each of the Tainted Lands from Torment are tainted version of one of Odyssey's basic lands. The same kami is on all three pieces of the Unspeakable's combo Iname is all about duality. Time Spiral and Planar Chaos are full of these. Overrun and Mutilate are meant to be mirrors. Viridian Shaman succumbs to phyresis and becomes the Viridian Corrupter Irrestible Prey & Prey's Vengeance tell the story of a Baloth and a Meepling. Innistrad and Avacyn Restored have the same basic lands, only the latter are more sunlit. There are more but I'll have to pull them up later.
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Jun 4, 2014 22:30
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Etched Oracle, Etched Champion, and Etched Monstrosity are neat. Pemmin's Aura is a build-your-own Morphling (Pemmin's Aura is an anagram of "I am Superman", which was a nickname for Morphling). See also Aetherling. The Duel Decks Remand appears to be countering a Deathrite Shaman, which was banned at around the same time. vOv fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 22:39
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Chorocojo posted:Overrun and Mutilate are meant to be mirrors. They were portrayed that way in the Garruk vs. Liliana duel deck, which I thought was neat, but it should be noted that Overrun was first printed in Tempest, and Mutilate was first printed in Torment, 5 years later.
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Jun 4, 2014 22:42
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Hey don't forget about Master of Arms (keep in mind that this actually works because pre-6e) and Gerrard Capashen!Nibble posted:Ascendant Evincar <> Crovax, Ascendant Hero Grandeur Cycle is the best of them  , although they don't portray the same characters, of course.Also for comedy, Colfenor's Urn -> Sapling of Colfenor. Ashling, Rhys, and Sygg also have their own Lorwyn/Shadowmoor versions. (Also Ertai, Wizard Adept -> Ertai the Corrupted and Rorix Bladewing -> Bladewing the Risen). And don't forget the best "shift" of Akroma! Zoness fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Jun 4, 2014 |
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Jun 4, 2014 22:49
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Guild leaders and other major characters that survived the end of Ravnica block were also reprinted in Return block. IIRC, NivMizzet, Obzedat, Teysa, Rakdos, & Gruul Cyclops guy.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:21
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Rules question: If I have a token that's a copy of Kokusho and I sacrifice the token, does Kokusho's ability trigger?
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Jun 4, 2014 23:47
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Yep. It will use last known information to trigger and then before anyone has priority it will cease to exist with the trigger on the stack.
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Jun 4, 2014 23:49
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qbert posted:Rules question: If I have a token that's a copy of Kokusho and I sacrifice the token, does Kokusho's ability trigger? Yes
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Jun 4, 2014 23:49
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qbert posted:Rules question: If I have a token that's a copy of Kokusho and I sacrifice the token, does Kokusho's ability trigger? Unless you control Rest in Peace or Forbidden Crypt 
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Jun 5, 2014 00:09
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Kasonic posted:I know Magic has done more pieces like Triumph of Ferocity/Triumph of Cruelty or Wort, Boggart Auntie/Wort the Raidmother, of dualities or before/afters outside of Lorwyn block. Is there an Arcana article somewhere or does anyone know of more like this? When I ran a Nivix blitz deck I had a lot of Nivix Cyclops blown up by Abrupt Decay. There's a number of creatures that show up in the Scars of Mirrodin block pre-and-post compleation.
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Jun 5, 2014 00:39
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Conspiracy cardnotes released today. Selvala's ability is confirmed to be a mana ability. No mention of the weirdnesses that drawing a card as a mana ability causes.
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Jun 5, 2014 00:43
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Gynovore posted:Conspiracy cardnotes released today. Selvala's ability is confirmed to be a mana ability. No mention of the weirdnesses that drawing a card as a mana ability causes. It helps that nobody will care about using it in the one format where it hypothetically might get played.
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Jun 5, 2014 00:47
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I wonder if there's ever going to be a format that allows a certain number of Conspiracy cards. Breakfast Burrito would be a hell of a deck with Backup Plan or Advantageous Proclamation.
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Jun 5, 2014 00:49
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Alaan posted:Yep. It will use last known information to trigger and then before anyone has priority it will cease to exist with the trigger on the stack. Great. Kokusho + Mimic Vat + Phyrexian Tower/High Market it is!
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Jun 5, 2014 00:51
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AATREK CURES KIDS posted:I wonder if there's ever going to be a format that allows a certain number of Conspiracy cards. Breakfast Burrito would be a hell of a deck with Backup Plan or Advantageous Proclamation. Fun, but broken. A few days ago, Trick Jarrett wrote in his column about hypothetically using Conspiracies in Vintage/Legacy, and asked users to submit degenerate examples. I came up with a deck that, if it goes first, wins 99.9% of the time and uses only commons. quote:1 Power Play
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Jun 5, 2014 00:55
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You could counter that deck with the conspiracy that makes 1/1 defenders, which buys you enough time to get your own degenerate combo off.
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Jun 5, 2014 01:24
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Yeah, the thing about conspiracies is that for almost all of them there's no reason not to run 4x.
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Jun 5, 2014 01:32
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What if you could run them but they took up sideboard slots? Then there would at least be some sort of tradeoff.
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Jun 5, 2014 01:46
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whydirt posted:What if you could run them but they took up sideboard slots? Then there would at least be some sort of tradeoff. There's not really a tradeoff there because they could be run in a lot of combo decks without an issue but would be fairly punishing to fair decks. I guess it might be something you'd have to consider if you run Burning Wish but any combo that didn't would happily give up sideboard slots they usually don't use.
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Jun 5, 2014 01:56
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whydirt posted:What if you could run them but they took up sideboard slots? Then there would at least be some sort of tradeoff. I'd happily give up 5 sideboard slots to be able to, say, cast a hasted titan for 2.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:02
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Gynovore posted:Conspiracy cardnotes released today. Selvala's ability is confirmed to be a mana ability. No mention of the weirdnesses that drawing a card as a mana ability causes. Seeing as how the Comp Rules already covers it... "717.1. If a player realizes that he or she can’t legally take an action after starting to do so, the entire action is reversed and any payments already made are canceled. No abilities trigger and no effects apply as a result of an undone action. If the action was casting a spell, the spell returns to the zone it came from. The player may also reverse any legal mana abilities activated while making the illegal play, unless mana from them or from any triggered mana abilities they triggered was spent on another mana ability that wasn’t reversed. Players may not reverse actions that moved cards to a library, moved cards from a library to any zone other than the stack, or caused a library to be shuffled." And "401.5. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2h). While face down, it’s considered to have no characteristics. The same is true with relation to another ability being activated. If an effect allows or instructs a player to reveal the card as it’s being drawn, it’s revealed after the spell becomes cast or the ability becomes activated."
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Jun 5, 2014 02:09
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Oh yeah, I'm not under any illusions that trading out sideboard slots would keep things from being broken, but without some kind of cap you'd just have people running grips of every conspiracy. Seems as good as restriction as any if you wanted to try an alt format.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:14
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The simplest solution is to make it singleton. They're all broken in numbers but don't overlap in synergy very much.
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Jun 5, 2014 02:31
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Brownhat posted:Seeing as how the Comp Rules already covers it... Have Lich's Mirror in play. Have some large number of Forests in play. Have a Forbidden Crypt in play with an empty yard. Activate any "search your library" effect (say Lin-Sivvi) and, while searching your library, find a Panglacial Wurm and cast it. Activate Selvala's mana ability as part of the cast. Draw a card. Due to Forbidden Crypt's effect, you lose the game. Due to Lich's Mirror, you shuffle your hand and all of your permanents into your library, including all of your lands. You are still midway through Panglacial Wurm's cast, but you cannot legally finish casting it. Where do you put it? Where do you rewind the game state? You drew seven cards for Lich's Mirror, you can't rewind that. I call this deck Junk Judgebreaker. 
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Jun 5, 2014 02:50
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Have Lich's Mirror in play. Have some large number of Forests in play. Have a Forbidden Crypt in play with an empty yard. Activate any "search your library" effect (say Lin-Sivvi) and, while searching your library, find a Panglacial Wurm and cast it. Activate Selvala's mana ability as part of the cast. Draw a card. Due to Forbidden Crypt's effect, you lose the game. Due to Lich's Mirror, you shuffle your hand and all of your permanents into your library, including all of your lands. You are still midway through Panglacial Wurm's cast, but you cannot legally finish casting it. Where do you put it? Where do you rewind the game state? You drew seven cards for Lich's Mirror, you can't rewind that. I call this deck Junk Judgebreaker. What's the actual answer? What happens? A judge I am not.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:11
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Prism posted:What's the actual answer? What happens? The answer, as always: MODO crashes and you lose.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:15
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You can pull it off on modo today by using Chromatic Sphere as your card-drawing-mana-ability. I suspect the answer is "you can't put it anywhere and eventually lose on time (unless someone concedes)", which of course is useless for figuring out how to play it in the real world.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:20
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DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:Have Lich's Mirror in play. Have some large number of Forests in play. Have a Forbidden Crypt in play with an empty yard. Activate any "search your library" effect (say Lin-Sivvi) and, while searching your library, find a Panglacial Wurm and cast it. Activate Selvala's mana ability as part of the cast. Draw a card. Due to Forbidden Crypt's effect, you lose the game. Due to Lich's Mirror, you shuffle your hand and all of your permanents into your library, including all of your lands. You are still midway through Panglacial Wurm's cast, but you cannot legally finish casting it. Where do you put it? Where do you rewind the game state? You drew seven cards for Lich's Mirror, you can't rewind that. I call this deck Junk Judgebreaker. Rewinding game states just about never happens, and if it does it's because literally nothing happened except passing turns and maybe a combat where nothing died.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:30
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I haven't used the Beta in a long time, and wanted to see what they changed. When I logged in, my computer Blue Screened! Thanks WOTC! 
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Jun 5, 2014 03:35
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Mikujin posted:Tell you to shuffle the wurm into your library since that's the zone you attempted to cast it from when you suddenly became unable to pay for its costs (because you were dumb and didn't float mana). The problem is shuffling is a game action that you cannot take unless directed to by a card or game rule, and there is no game rule for this. I honestly don't know what happens here. It's pretty hosed.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:38
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neetengie posted:I haven't used the Beta in a long time, and wanted to see what they changed. When I logged in, my computer Blue Screened! Thanks WOTC! I'm dreading having to use it for Vintage Masters. I got as far as downloading it and trying to do anything before I decided it was terrible.
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Jun 5, 2014 03:39
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