|
Bisty Q. posted:Jesus, dude. You are wrong. Having an offer rescinded is earth-shatteringly rare. You've poured about 10,000 words into this thread to exhaustively argue with everyone that it is something you should even consider. You shouldn't. This. SB: your experience is so rare, it's statistically insignificant. It probably shouldn't be a consideration for you going forward, and it most definitely shouldn't be a consideration for anyone else in this thread.
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 06:14 |
|
|
It seems like the majority of people here are in/seeking corporate type jobs/offerings. Does anyone have much experience in negotiations in healthcare or vet med or small business environments? I'm a fresh graduate, and the common advice is to take what you can get and count yourself lucky. I have heard a lot of stories about small business people taking offense in a very personal way to any kind of salary negotiation (which, especially after reading through the thread, seems like an indicator that it'd suck to work there anyway), but I think there must be some kinds of considerations/tips for trying to negotiate in those kinds of settings, I would assume. I know that as an entry level person I don't really have leverage, but looking forward, I hope that things are less grim.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 04:50
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:It seems like the majority of people here are in/seeking corporate type jobs/offerings. Does anyone have much experience in negotiations in healthcare or vet med or small business environments? I'm a fresh graduate, and the common advice is to take what you can get and count yourself lucky. Vet med? Are you a vet tech or a full vet? Will make a big difference in the kind of leverage you have. Both my step-brother and sister-in-law are in the field. Couple things to consider when negotiating with a small proprietor: - anything they pay you is coming directly out of their own pocket; it's much more abstract in a larger company or anything where the manager is not the owner - keeping this in mind, just straight up asking for more money could frustrate them as many small businesses struggle to break even. If you want to get paid more, you need to make a case for how hiring you will make profit, above and beyond any incremental amount they pay you relative to your next best competitor for the job. - small businesses have less capital to 'take a chance' on someone, so be prepared to have to demonstrate your value first - they will be less professional, so this is a scenario where you do need to think (a little) more carefully about whether they will get their ego bruised. Doesn't mean don't negotiate, but be more considered in how you phrase things - consider non-cash or variable compensation structures. If you're going to grow sales, ask for a commish, if you're going to lower costs, ask for a bonus based on how much money you save the business. A small business has a lot more flexibility to consider unconventional payment structures - if you are a vet tech, there are unfortunately a lot more of you around than there are jobs, or at least there were a couple years ago when my relatives were looking. This reduces your leverage and you may need to be willing to accept a less favourable pay structure just to get some experience on your resume, at which point you can move or renegotiate. It's not uncommon for grads to volunteer somewhere for a period of time to get experience and then get bumped into a paying job - if you are a vet, you are a rare and expensive commodity and will be a partner in almost any business you join. You always have the option if starting your own practice which gives you a relatively good BATNA.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 05:12
|
|
|
Bisty Q. posted:Jesus, dude. You are wrong. Having an offer rescinded is earth-shatteringly rare. You've poured about 10,000 words into this thread to exhaustively argue with everyone that it is something you should even consider. You shouldn't. The chances of them going "oh, you asked for another $5K? No, and also gently caress you!" are so small it is literally not worth considering.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 10:57
|
|
|
swenblack posted:You are making a lot of assumptions here, and there's no need to swear in all caps. Stop it with the straw man arguments as well. My advice isn't to negotiate softly or "Ask for permission," it's to realistically assess the situation. Ignoring the worst possible outcome, even though it's statistically unlikely, is terrible advice. That's like telling people not to buy life insurance. Statistically, you shouldn't buy life insurance 
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 11:00
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:It seems like the majority of people here are in/seeking corporate type jobs/offerings. Does anyone have much experience in negotiations in healthcare or vet med or small business environments? I'm a fresh graduate, and the common advice is to take what you can get and count yourself lucky. I'd add that sole proprietors and small businesses tend to put a higher emphasis on personal relationships, both for hiring and determining pay. Having an existing relationship with the the owner, i.e. he's your dad's friend or you interned with his company, is a good deterrent against being lowballed. I'd also consider why the company is hiring. If it's because a long term employee retired and you're replacing them, you can more confidently ask for more money, since a large chunk of budget just became available. Alternatively, if the small company is expanding, asking for salary growth as the company expands might be a better strategy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 11:15
|
|
|
Kalenn Istarion posted:Statistically, you shouldn't buy life insurance 
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 11:20
|
|
|
swenblack posted:You are making a lot of assumptions here, and there's no need to swear in all caps. Stop it with the straw man arguments as well. My advice isn't to negotiate softly or "Ask for permission," it's to realistically assess the situation. Ignoring the worst possible outcome, even though it's statistically unlikely, is terrible advice. That's like telling people not to buy life insurance. gently caress. poo poo. rear end. You're not telling people to assess the situation, you're crying wolf about someone having a job offer rescinded because they tried to negotiate. You're in the super-minority that this has ever happened and need to leave it alone. Yes, we get it; it's technically possible. I've never heard of this ever happening in real life, and according to the thread barely anyone else has either. drat. BITCH. gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 13:17
|
|
|
I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience. I just interviewed at a medical devices company. I asked for 75k. They offered me 63k initially but I negotiated. Their counter offer was 65k with a 3k bonus. Their benefits are a little better and there's amazing opportunity for learning and career growth. They also have crazy perks like free flight lessons. I'm probably going to accept. I'm not as happy with the salary. Would any of you take a small paycut to work where you can learn a lot more? Should I continue to push them up to 75k?
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 13:45
|
|
|
Unseen posted:I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 14:22
|
|
|
Unseen posted:I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience. I wouldn't take a pay cut just to hop industries if that was my first attempt to jump rails. Also you have nothing to gain by disclosing your present salary. You can say that 68k is your floor and you won't accept anything lower and have the same negotiating position as saying 68k is your present salary, but you won't be giving them the knowledge that they're now matching your present compensation. I would thank them for their time and continue looking for other exit paths out of defense. You have good odds of getting out of that industry and of increasing your compensation. Unless you've interviewed with several other opportunities and are not getting offers out of it, I think you are too eagerly taking a pay cut. swenblack posted:I'm in defense, and I wish I had gone into med tech instead, FWIW. The future certainly is brighter there, particularly with the current trajectory of defense spending. You may be better off taking a pay cut to work an industry with better growth prospects, but I don't think you're at that point yet. You're in a very strong negotiating position. By upping their original offer, they've signaled how much they want you. Do they know your current salary? This might be a good opportunity to share it with them and indicate you need to make a lateral move salary-wise. You may or may not be successful in getting a better offer, but given their investment in you already, I'd guess it's likely. Good luck! I think your advice about negotiating tends to be more harmful than helpful when applied in the broader economy. Maybe it works well in defense contracting, but overall the positions you have consistently advocated tend toward these behaviors: 1) Be deferential to authority, treating employers as authorities. Do not engage employers as equals in an economic transaction. 2) Be overly open and honest, even in the case of significant pre-existing information asymmetries. 3) Eagerly accept opportunities as you may not get another one. These behaviors may minimize risk, but they also minimize rewards and are only dominant strategies in games where opportunities are scarce. The anecdotal experiences of the majority of this thread conflicts with the theory that your recommended behavior is optimal. Further, if the behavior you recommend mirrors your own behavior, you may have the opportunity to reap considerably greater economic rewards by changing your behavior.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 15:43
|
|
|
The medical company also offered to review my salary early on and give me a raise "if I'm good". They said they can put it in writing. They also said it's "only fair to other people starting at the company" that they give me 65k. This company is notorious among engineers in my area for having crap pay. Or at least crap starting pay. The initial 63k is actually below what I was first offered out of school 
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 16:40
|
|
|
Not that I totally agree with SB, but I'll offer two examples... Fresh out of undergrad, I interviewed with an education software company in a sales role. Got offered the job and was given a few days to think about it. I called back the very next day and said I had a few questions and was told nevermind, they've moved on to someone else. Apparently I was to accept the offer on the spot when they first gave it to me. Oh well. Internal job application when I worked at a bank. Knew the hiring manager (he was my former company-assigned mentor), knew I was the second choice (first choice was a friend, who turned the job down because she was moving out of state) and knew the salary range. The offered such an extremely lowball amount, well below the offer to the first choice (similar experience, age, skills, etc.). I responded with a very reasonable counter offer, and had the whole offer pulled. I quit the bank a month later, because it's not worth it to work for a company like that. That said, I still would never ask for permission to negotiate, nor do I fear negotiating since this has happened to me twice.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 16:42
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I think your advice about negotiating tends to be more harmful than helpful when applied in the broader economy. Maybe it works well in defense contracting, but overall the positions you have consistently advocated tend toward these behaviors: Quite frankly, I find your advice to be completely without nuance. Your style of negotiations seems uniquely suited to negotiating from a position of strength, and repeatedly fails to take into consideration the individual's situation. In general, most people would be well advised to follow the strategies you lay out, but in some unique situations, following your advice can be quite harmful. swenblack fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jun 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 16:55
|
|
|
swenblack posted:I don't agree with this at all. I strongly object to all three characterizations, and have absolutely no idea how you came up with them. I strongly advocate negotiating with decision makers on a peer basis rather than intermediaries. I strongly and repeatedly have advocated mitigating information asymmetries rather than volunteering information. Furthermore, I only suggest accepting opportunities if you are completely unwilling to accept the worst possible outcome in opening negotiations. It's odd that you'd quote me advising someone to press the issue further negotiating for more pay and then make those points. I'm honestly confused. You're right, and I'm a crazy person.  I am sorry.I must have confused you with a different poster. I really strongly disagree with your recent posts regarding TheSpartacus' situation, and I disagree with your recommendation that Unseen disclose his salary. But after reviewing posts in this thread I was being a total dickbag and you don't deserve any dickbaggery. I do take a one sided approach in this and the raise megathread, and there is a simple reason for that. Anyone who's asking for advice in a negotiating megathread is going to be most helped by being urged on toward confident and aggressive attitudes and behavior. More than half of effective negotiating has nothing to do with reality, and everything to do with presented attitude. Being ready to ask for more, knowing that you can pursue other opportunities, and being very stingy in revealing any amount of your hand all play into that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 17:48
|
|
|
Kalenn Istarion posted:Vet med? Are you a vet tech or a full vet? Will make a big difference in the kind of leverage you have. Thanks for the very helpful reply; most of what you said falls in line with what my instincts would tell me, and I've read the whole thread so I'm pretty glad for that. I'm a vet tech - it's interesting that you say that about vets being a rare and expensive commodity, because I hear a lot from within the community (trade journals, my time in school and clinics, at CE's that I've gone to, etc etc.) that they are graduating more and more vets than ever before, and that the field is becoming saturated and the outlooks for (the average) new vets are becoming less financially bright. That said, there are always clinics hiring for both in my state, though for techs it looks like the great majority of the jobs are in the southern part of the state (1.5-2 hours away). I have been running down leads and trying to make something happen locally, because I'd rather not have to move (and nobody is going to pay me relocation), so we'll see what happens.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 17:57
|
|
|
Unseen posted:I'm a software engineer working at a defence contractor. The industry has begun to contract and we've had multiple rounds of layoffs. On top of that we just lost a huge contract so the future is even more bleak. I'm young and cheap so chances are I won't get laid off any time soon. However there's no exciting work now or in the future and I'm bored. I make 68k and have about 3 years software experience. Where are you geographically? Even 75k sounds kind of low to me for a 3-year experienced software engineer especially at a big corporation or contracting house. My numbers and perception are probably skewed a little though. Where I'm at 75k is entry-level software engineer. If you've got 3 years experience and can back it up with demonstrable real-world skills you could probably pretty easily swing 100k or more in Seattle, but with the cost of living to match.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 18:25
|
|
|
I live 40 miles outside of Boston and work in southern NH.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 19:10
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:Thanks for the very helpful reply; most of what you said falls in line with what my instincts would tell me, and I've read the whole thread so I'm pretty glad for that. Good to know your state is in better shape. Where I live it's completely the opposite. On the upside that improves your negotiating strength a lot. Unseen posted:The medical company also offered to review my salary early on and give me a raise "if I'm good". They said they can put it in writing. They also said it's "only fair to other people starting at the company" that they give me 65k. This company is notorious among engineers in my area for having crap pay. Or at least crap starting pay. The initial 63k is actually below what I was first offered out of school I don't know the right numbers for the software industry but from other posts here and your own research it sounds like you can do better. I'd go back with a hard number that you require to move and give them a chance to hit it. Don't tell them your current pay. Just say "thanks for your increased offer but after consideration I would need $X to consider leaving my current role. If you think you can meet that, then I would be trilled to join your company." And just leave it at that. This is one f the situations where you'll likely do a lot better by showing that you're willing to walk. You might not get this job, but it sounds like you're in a position where there are lots of others. That said, none of us know what kind of growth you're potentially going to see at the new company. You need to make an evaluation of what that's worth to you, considering both potential changes to the company as a whole and to your position at it. High-growth companies make a lot of room.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 20:17
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:It seems like the majority of people here are in/seeking corporate type jobs/offerings. Does anyone have much experience in negotiations in healthcare or vet med or small business environments? I'm a fresh graduate, and the common advice is to take what you can get and count yourself lucky.
|
|
#
?
Jun 5, 2014 21:34
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:You're right, and I'm a crazy person.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 12:45
|
|
|
swenblack posted:I'm certainly more selectively aggressive than you are. As for Unseen's situation, I assessed that he's at in impasse, given that he's aggressively negotiated and gotten counteroffers, but they're unwilling to meet his demands. Revealing that his BATNA is better than the proposed settlement is a textbook way to restart negotiations, and gives him a viable third option for consideration in addition to accepting the deal or walking away. If I decided I'd accept the job if they matched my current salary, I'd share my BATNA to demonstrate resolve as an intermediary step to walking away. I take a slightly different tack than you on information. I believe it's a tool to be used when appropriate, rather than a treasure to guarded. I agree it's a great tool, e.g. I have an offer in hand from another employer for $X. Match $X or I will take that other offer. I don't think one should ever lead with that move, but it's a wonderful forcing function when a less adversarial negotiation fails to achieve your desired outcome. To some extent one can argue disclosing your present salary is just an isomorph of the competing offer disclosure, and I imagine that's in the vicinity of where your reasoning lies. However there is a significant amount of institutionalized technique in employer salary negotiation pertaining to anchoring expectations around "present salary". By never disclosing your present salary, you undercut this entire toolbox and render it meaningless. Ultimately Unseen is at an impasse with this prospective employer, which is when ultimatums start to become appropriate, and the two ultimatums to choose from are: $68k is my floor, pay me that, or we're done. $68k is my present salary, pay me that, or we're done. The former prevents salary anchoring, and is an aggressive and competent negotiating posture. It leaves some room for doubt in his resolve to actually walk. The latter lends more credence to the claim that Unseen will walk. It also opens the door to salary anchoring. Right now that may be moot, because if met they're already stretching their budget for the position, and if not the entire negotiation is over. After this we'd have to get into highly improbable scenarios to start picking between the two.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2014 13:56
|
|
|
I appreciate all the advice. I decided to accept the offer at the medical devices place. After some more thought, I decided I was looking for job satisfaction. I know a couple employees who work there and they can testify that the place works great for them. I can deal with taking a small pay-cut since I'm confident I'll grow a lot at this new company. All it took to get me 2k/yr and a 3k starting bonus was "Your offer is a bit low, my target salary is 75k, but I can go as low as 68k". I should have said 70k, but I'm happy. Besides, my boss said I can have my job back if I don't like it there. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 01:26
|
|
|
We've pulled offers from candidates we liked from them trying to aggressively negotiate. Usually it's a combination of job hopping on a resume (never more than 2 years at one place), and aggressively chasing the highest reaches of the pay band. It's clear from their behavior they aren't going to stick around so we pull the offer. We rather have someone that will be around for a while than deal with people like that. It's a huge investment to get people up to speed in our environment, and we get the impression you're going to bolt at the next best offer, we're going to pass on you.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 05:17
|
|
|
skipdogg posted:We've pulled offers from candidates we liked from them trying to aggressively negotiate. Usually it's a combination of job hopping on a resume (never more than 2 years at one place), and aggressively chasing the highest reaches of the pay band. It's clear from their behavior they aren't going to stick around so we pull the offer. We rather have someone that will be around for a while than deal with people like that. It's a huge investment to get people up to speed in our environment, and we get the impression you're going to bolt at the next best offer, we're going to pass on you. There's a big difference between someone job hopping and I think most of the people asking for advice in this thread. Someone jumping around like that probably doesn't need or want to come ask random internet guys about it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 11:23
|
|
|
skipdogg posted:We've pulled offers from candidates we liked from them trying to aggressively negotiate. Usually it's a combination of job hopping on a resume (never more than 2 years at one place), and aggressively chasing the highest reaches of the pay band. It's clear from their behavior they aren't going to stick around so we pull the offer. We rather have someone that will be around for a while than deal with people like that. It's a huge investment to get people up to speed in our environment, and we get the impression you're going to bolt at the next best offer, we're going to pass on you. I was at my last company for 2 years and I wanted to stay for 5 or more. I joined the company a month after it was acquired by a large holdings company. The culture shift I witnessed within a year was astounding. I gave them a second chance after our first major layoff and then a second second chance after our practices became questionable. They blew it after a second major layoff, zero dollar yearly bonus and terrible raise. Job hoppers suck but I believe today's practices reinforces and justifies them. "Let's pay employees the absolute least we can give them, minimize benefits and maximize work load; they should be happy to have a job right?". (This is a generalization and not directed at you). Contrast this with a conversation I had with a 45-year employee (materials engineer) of a lightbulb company in my area. Retired with a huge pension, and a years pay paid out on his last day. His words to me, "you will never find a company like that again".
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 16:57
|
|
|
I suppose it depends on the industry, but at least in tech I don't think many people would consider 2 years at a company job hopping. On the hiring side of things, job hopper red flags are when you haven't held down a single position for more than a year or so in the recent past. A few months ago we hired a guy who seemed decent but we were definitely concerned about his recent job history. In the past 6 or 7 years he was at something like 8 or 9 different jobs. Granted a couple of them were contract positions, but a lot of them were also FTE. In the interview he was saying how he was looking for a place to "settle down" and blah blah. Against our better judgement we ended up hiring and not even 3 months later he quit for another job. The days of being a "company man" and working at the same place for decades is largely over. Company loyalty is a two-way street and most companies are not particularly loyal to their employees when push to comes to shove. And just on a personal note, working at the same place for decades would drive me crazy so I'm kind of okay with it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:I'm a vet tech - it's interesting that you say that about vets being a rare and expensive commodity, because I hear a lot from within the community (trade journals, my time in school and clinics, at CE's that I've gone to, etc etc.) that they are graduating more and more vets than ever before, and that the field is becoming saturated and the outlooks for (the average) new vets are becoming less financially bright. That said, there are always clinics hiring for both in my state, though for techs it looks like the great majority of the jobs are in the southern part of the state (1.5-2 hours away). I have been running down leads and trying to make something happen locally, because I'd rather not have to move (and nobody is going to pay me relocation), so we'll see what happens. Here to update my situation (and take my licks for being a pussy, maybe): I did an externship at an emergency clinic as part of my coursework for school. It's sort of different from a typical clinic because it's owned by a board of local vets, so none of the ones who work there are The Practice Owner, and it's managed by a practice manager. They had a position open up so they called me in to talk about it. Actually, he emailed me and said quote:Hello Not Grover, and also gave me a call before I'd had a chance to check my email, in which he said he'd like to have me come in and tell me about what he's looking for, etc. So I went in, and it wasn't much of an interview. He basically talked a bit about the culture of the practice, the nature of the work, said a lot of, "well you've been here, so you kind of know what's going on". Apparently the (non)interview was just a formality, because the head tech (who was my pharmacology teacher at school) had already penned me in on the schedule. I guess my question (and what I imagine I'll get some criticism for) is that while he briefly went over benefits as far as insurance, CE allowance, uniform allowance, etc, actual hourly pay never got discussed. At the end of my visit, we shook hands and he said welcome to the team, but I didn't sign anything. There was no paperwork at all, in fact. I guess I was expecting either a callback to let me know either way, or for it to have come up naturally in the discussion. I also have a couple of questions about PTO, so I was thinking that I should email him in regards to both? I feel like I have accepted a really sort of nebulous offer, and that it happened really fast. At the end of the day, I want this job - it's
I feel like I will be on board with whatever they offer me, but I don't feel great about never even discussing it. One last thing is that I have heard it's a common practice to hire a fresh tech at a slightly lower hourly rate when they first get out of school, and then bump them up when they pass their boards and get licensed. I don't think they have any intention of trying to screw me on pay, and I have a decent idea of what my classmates are being/have been offered. It just makes me really uneasy that it didn't get discussed. I think that's about everything - I'm starting on Saturday, and he said he'd have my computer log-ins, name tag, etc ready for me by then.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2014 15:27
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:Here to update my situation (and take my licks for being a pussy, maybe): I did an externship at an emergency clinic as part of my coursework for school. It's sort of different from a typical clinic because it's owned by a board of local vets, so none of the ones who work there are The Practice Owner, and it's managed by a practice manager. They had a position open up so they called me in to talk about it. Actually, he emailed me and said It's a little bush-league of him not to even mention your wage or have you sign anything and leaves you legally exposed if they want to let you go. Totally reasonable for you to follow up with your questions and to ask for a written contract. Obviously they like you given their approach so you have more leverage than most fresh hires, but since you're happy to take the job, I'd phrase it as a question initially: code:Key is to present it all as a package so that you don't end up discussing each line item in a vacuum. If you don't like what he comes back with, then it's important to get back to him with any requests before you start. Given your bias to take the job you don't have to push hard and you want to play nice but you definitely lose a lot of options if you don't speak up before you walk in the door on Saturday. Since it is a first job it's ultimately more important to get in the door and start building up your resume / experience. If the pay is poo poo you can always look to move once you've got your certifications.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2014 21:48
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:At the end of the day, I want this job - it's 1. 1 offer in 1 month is a fairly high rate, particularly for people with little or no experience 2. I can't speak intelligently about vet med, but in a lot of other industries, pay raises at the 6 to 12 month point contingent on industry standard certifications are the norm. 3. Get your compensation plan in writing, including bumps for getting certified. 4. If your pay is significantly lower than your peers, you should negotiate for higher pay. If they balk at a higher salary on day one, try to negotiate higher defined raises for milestones in your first year, i.e., boards/licensing. Get it in writing. 5. You have a huge advantage because you're already part of the team, as evidenced by the manager's own statements. This means their BATNA is weak. They've already identified a person they want to hire into their practice--You! Their BATNA is to take a gamble on an unproven employee, which is something that no small business ever wants to do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 16, 2014 23:14
|
|
|
Thanks so much for the replies. I sent off an email last night in the suggested format, and this morning got back quote:Hello Not Grover, First impressions are that 1) it's less than I was expecting and 2) the way it's worded seems very concrete to me. I'd like to negotiate for something better to start, but I have that worry that was previously discussed in the thread about an offer being pulled, mostly because I'm dealing with a smaller business type environment. What you all said about them identifying me as the person they want to hire does give me some confidence that there's wiggle room, though. According to what I've found through the internet, that offer puts me at about the median for a vet assistant (no schooling/licensure) makes, and on the lower end of what a technician makes for my state. The other clinic I externed at, which pays the best out of any of the area clinics, starts their brand new, right out of school, not-yet-licensed techs at $14.70, so I had had in my mind about $13 being my totally happy point based on it being an emergency clinic, which means increased stress and higher minimum competency required, and requires night and weekend work. I am concerned that starting at $11 anchors my pay rate at a point that will negatively affect increases in the future if they are percentage based. That said, I don't know how much of an increase can be expected for passing my boards and obtaining my license. I also wonder how much, if any, of that stuff is laid out in the handbook he brought up. I am asking around with my peers today to see what they've been offered and get a non-internet sense of where that offer falls in relation to what clinics are putting up for offers. Pending that, I'd like to ask for $13 to start - is 19% more too much to ask for? Even if the offer doesn't come in any higher, I remain hopeful about getting a stellar review and getting bumped up to a number I'm happier with, but I don't love the idea that it's nebulous and not guaranteed. Thank you again for your guidance, this thread is really helpful in navigating this stuff that I don't really have experience dealing with. The more I read this thread and consider this specific negotiation, the more I think I should have been an engineer or programmer or software developer.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 15:48
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:Thanks so much for the replies. I sent off an email last night in the suggested format, and this morning got back I wouldn't hesitate to counter with $13/hr; it's good to talk about comparable employment opportunities and that you're not expecting the same hourly rate due to the different environment. Keep the discussion on the work and away from personal stuff, e.g. I need more money to get into a fancy dan apartment. If they pull the offer over $2/hr after low balling you that might be a good indicator that they just did you a favor. If you do take the job you have every right to keep looking, to leverage other potential employers for pay raises, and to be fairly ruthless in pursuing your own interests.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 18:52
|
|
|
Can someone please give me advice on how to tell a company to hurry up with the hiring process to see where I am (and if they would make me an offer) because another company just offered a job to me?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 21:19
|
|
|
Dwight Eisenhower posted:I wouldn't hesitate to counter with $13/hr; it's good to talk about comparable employment opportunities and that you're not expecting the same hourly rate due to the different environment. Keep the discussion on the work and away from personal stuff, e.g. I need more money to get into a fancy dan apartment. If they pull the offer over $2/hr after low balling you that might be a good indicator that they just did you a favor. I spent some time asking around with my peers and heard responses back in the 12.50 range for day practices, so that does make me feel like I am right to be disappointed with that initial offer. Before I send a response back, I'd like to run it by the thread so you can tell me if it sucks or not. quote:Hello [Pratice Manager], I feel that it's kind of bare as far as justifications for increased pay, but the hard facts are that I don't have a lot of relevant experience in critical care and I am a recent graduate. I was a top student in school and worked as a TA in the school clinic teaching other students in the year behind me all of the small animal clinical skills and stuff, so while I'm not a salty veteran, I do feel that my skills are better than the majority of my freshly graduated peers. I don't know how to get that across without sounding arrogant, especially since there is a perception in vet med that school doesn't teach you poo poo when it comes to being in practice. Any advice or ideas?
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 22:16
|
|
|
Not Grover posted:I spent some time asking around with my peers and heard responses back in the 12.50 range for day practices, so that does make me feel like I am right to be disappointed with that initial offer. Before I send a response back, I'd like to run it by the thread so you can tell me if it sucks or not. I don't have time to give detailed feedback on this but you are way way way way too blunt.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 23:27
|
|
|
I hate to recommend against negotiating, but I've got a feeling in this case you are very replaceable as a recent grad without relevant experience. They gave you some room with the talk of re-evaluating at the 90 day mark, I'd personally hold them to it and use your early performance as a way to justify why you deserve $13 an hour, or potentially even more.
|
|
#
?
Jun 17, 2014 23:38
|
|
|
Xandu posted:I hate to recommend against negotiating, but I've got a feeling in this case you are very replaceable as a recent grad without relevant experience. They gave you some room with the talk of re-evaluating at the 90 day mark, I'd personally hold them to it and use your early performance as a way to justify why you deserve $13 an hour, or potentially even more. This is what I would have done.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 00:14
|
|
|
I haven't send it yet, thankfully  . It's pretty evident that I don't have experience with negotiations at this point - I feel like I'm in over my head. I have been really chewing things over and I suppose that a foot in the door might be enough for now, with my focus now on just knocking it out of the park in the first 90 days.
Not Grover fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Jun 18, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 00:52
|
|
|
I would wait, get that certification and then come back with $13/hr.
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 01:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 5, 2024 06:14 |
|
|
Not Grover posted:I spent some time asking around with my peers and heard responses back in the 12.50 range for day practices, so that does make me feel like I am right to be disappointed with that initial offer. Before I send a response back, I'd like to run it by the thread so you can tell me if it sucks or not. So, the others have raised good points about what is essentially an apprenticeship position. There is some merit to the tactic of just taking it for as long as it takes you to certify and then getting a market rate, either internally or externally, once that's done. That said, you do have some leverage given they came to you and your instructor who works there should be able to speak to your class performance. I believe you also mentioned earlier that there's some amount of shortage of techs in your area. If you do want to negotiate, I'd make a few tweaks: quote:Hello [Pratice Manager],
|
|
#
?
Jun 18, 2014 01:09
|
|