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If Vee had just killed RJ instead of also loving him, and had some sort of justification for her power complex alluded to in some way, it would hae been fine IMO. We're used to characters having their motivations/personality justified in their backstories in some way, but Vee didn't get that. She still would have been reprehensible and easy to hate, and clearly just a regular old criminal, but yeah, i think that's where the failure lied in terms of why people are interpreting Vee as a cartoon villain. anime was right fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 16:46
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I'm bit a confused about a few events in the final episode(s?) - What was that thing about making the poison for Vee? It concluded with red's girl blowing some stuff into Vee's hair - did I miss what it was supposed to do? Or was it just that things came to a head so fast that Vee's escape just meant that it didn't have time to work? As otheres said: O'Neil and the Nuns was fantastic. Piper's brother was pretty great all around to - (forgot what episode) The high five, and the realization that followed.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:09
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Oxyclean posted:I'm bit a confused about a few events in the final episode(s?) - What was that thing about making the poison for Vee? It concluded with red's girl blowing some stuff into Vee's hair - did I miss what it was supposed to do? Or was it just that things came to a head so fast that Vee's escape just meant that it didn't have time to work? It was just some voodoo thing. Eye of newt, toe of frog, etc.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:12
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Oxyclean posted:I'm bit a confused about a few events in the final episode(s?) - What was that thing about making the poison for Vee? It concluded with red's girl blowing some stuff into Vee's hair - did I miss what it was supposed to do? Or was it just that things came to a head so fast that Vee's escape just meant that it didn't have time to work? They weren't making poison, they were cursing her via some santeria ritual, and in the end it pretty much worked.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:13
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It's a santerķa ritual - just like the one from Gloria's flashback - how her abusive boyfriend died after being cursed by the priestess. The dust placed a curse on Vee which led to her bad luck in encountering Rosa on the road. If you want to believe they were connected, at least, but their intent was to curse her.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:16
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Old Lady Crew is badass and I was amazed how effectively sinister Superold looked. I don't remember her name but drat. That said, if someone's a longtime inmate there from an originally more dangerous institution you can assume they've done some poo poo.
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Jun 9, 2014 17:27
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:If Vee had just killed RJ instead of also loving him, and had some sort of justification for her power complex alluded to in some way, it would hae been fine IMO. We're used to characters having their motivations/personality justified in their backstories in some way, but Vee didn't get that. E: n/m I misread what was under the spoiler tags. But I think in terms of motivation Vee's power complex came from just wanting to be the top dog everywhere, everytime. RJ trying to cut in on her turf? Gotta go. Red won't give up her system? Gotta go. I do agree she was like a caricature, more and more so as the season went on LadyPictureShow fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 19:43
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LadyPictureShow posted:E: n/m I misread what was under the spoiler tags. But I think in terms of motivation Vee's power complex came from just wanting to be the top dog everywhere, everytime. RJ trying to cut in on her turf? Gotta go. Red won't give up her system? Gotta go. I do agree she was like a caricature, more and more so as the season went on As soon as I saw her talking to the cop I knew what was going to happen, but when she has sex with RJ first I honestly started laughing because if she had a mustache she would twirl it as soon as he leaves the room.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:54
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Like, one scene where vee was utterly powerless to do something would have made her way, way less 1 dimensional. If they replaced the RJ scene with that and then never explained him being killed but hinted at it instead, that would have probably made her character a lot better. That's just me pretending I know how to write TV shows though! The fact that RJ wouldn't carry heat, and him encroaching on her turf would have been way better because we could imagine for ourselves if she did it or not. When you line that up with her giving Red the double-cross beatdown, I think that would sort of seal the deal without being explicit.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:57
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I think Vee was a fine villain. I mean, was she very very evil? Yes, but the entire point of the show is that a lot of these folk are at least a bit rotten, Vee had to be clearly worse than anyone else or narratively it gets more ambiguous than really works for this setting.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:00
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Eh, I think it was kind of refreshing to have an irredeemably evil character on a show that features criminals who are almost all sympathetic in some way. EDIT: what other show could have a bank robber run another character down with no remorse and have the audience feel great about it? gandlethorpe fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 20:02
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Pick posted:I think Vee was a fine villain. I mean, was she very very evil? Yes, but the entire point of the show is that a lot of these folk are at least a bit rotten, Vee had to be clearly worse than anyone else or narratively it gets more ambiguous than really works for this setting. The whole plotline of P/Tasty and the fact that she brought heroin, which killed another character in a previous season, into the prison. The fact that she broke her promise with Red. The fact that she sold out an innocent person. Yeah, that would have been definitely morally ambiguous. Even removing the RJ scene, she was unquestionably a pure villain. I'm just addressing the cartoonishness of her, that would definitely be the touches that I think would tune her down from 11 to 10.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:04
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Pick posted:I think Vee was a fine villain. I mean, was she very very evil? Yes, but the entire point of the show is that a lot of these folk are at least a bit rotten, Vee had to be clearly worse than anyone else or narratively it gets more ambiguous than really works for this setting. Actually the entire point in the first season is that while a lot of these people have flaws most of them are one or two bad decisions away from being normal.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:10
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I liked that Vee was in there for the lesser crimes she committed, where most of the people in her block were younger kids on less serious charges. If they had her pegged for murder then she would've been in Max, where she wouldn't be able to manipulate weaker people. I agree that the 'antics' of this season were heavier, but it makes sense when you have a real villain amongst them.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:23
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:
I just don't see the advantage of dialing her down. She's intentionally as sinister as possible. This show has never been about realism and it's not something I think they took as a priority here.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:31
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Pick posted:I just don't see the advantage of dialing her down. She's intentionally as sinister as possible. This show has never been about realism and it's not something I think they took as a priority here. This show about real people in prison based on the real life accounts of a woman who spent time in women's prison has never been about realism?
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Jun 9, 2014 20:35
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Asiina posted:This show about real people in prison based on the real life accounts of a woman who spent time in women's prison has never been about realism? Correct.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:36
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The show puts in a lot of effort to create the illusion of realism at the very least.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:39
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It's realistic enough for me, the day Boo gets the prison layout tattooed on her back - I'm out.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:52
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Just finished episode 8 last night. Glad to see Pornstache will be back. Also, Maritza is so god drat hot.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:58
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Dumb question: What's the deal with the guards assigning 'shots' to the prisoners? Was a shot like a black mark on your record? Or an actual injection? Something to do with the SHU? Was there some sort of quota the guards suddenly had to meet? I must of had too much to drink when they explained all that, and I don't remember.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:59
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:The show puts in a lot of effort to create the illusion of realism at the very least. I think we have a different experience with the show so our mileages vary 
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Jun 9, 2014 21:02
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It can be cartoonish, but generally the characters all feel like real people with layers and depths and such. Vee is the exception here.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:04
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Meow Cadet posted:Dumb question: What's the deal with the guards assigning 'shots' to the prisoners? Was a shot like a black mark on your record? Or an actual injection? Something to do with the SHU? Was there some sort of quota the guards suddenly had to meet? I must of had too much to drink when they explained all that, and I don't remember. I don't think they did explain it, but yeah it was pretty clearly just demerits or some other sort of disciplinary write-up bullshit.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:13
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IRQ posted:I don't think they did explain it, but yeah it was pretty clearly just demerits or some other sort of disciplinary write-up bullshit. Seeing how the prisoners backed down immediately after the first shot I'm guessing you go to the shu if you get too many in a short period of time.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:46
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Asiina posted:This show about real people in prison based on the real life accounts of a woman who spent time in women's prison has never been about realism? I haven't read the book but from what I understand the show and the book are similar in the following ways: The main character's name is Piper She went to jail for drug smuggling And that's it.
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Jun 9, 2014 22:00
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Women's Rights? posted:I haven't read the book but from what I understand the show and the book are similar in the following ways: She has a fiance named Larry, but I'm going with the show is not going to end up like the book in regards to that relationship. And there's a screwdriver in both versions, but they end up in vastly different places 
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Jun 9, 2014 22:11
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Something I thought was funny but haven't seen mentioned is how Pornstache made a comment about Soso not being able to see through her "slits" when she has HUGE eyes. Probably bigger than any other character's.
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Jun 10, 2014 00:07
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Meow Cadet posted:Dumb question: What's the deal with the guards assigning 'shots' to the prisoners? Was a shot like a black mark on your record? Or an actual injection? Something to do with the SHU? Was there some sort of quota the guards suddenly had to meet? I must of had too much to drink when they explained all that, and I don't remember. A 'shot' is an incident report. If an inmate gets one, he/she could temporarily lose certain privileges, such as commissary or visitation. If they get several in a short period of time, they will at least go to SHU and could possibly lose 'good conduct time' effectively lengthening their sentence.
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Jun 10, 2014 00:38
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Jun 10, 2014 00:38
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Yeah I also paused and read the comic. It sure is something.
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Jun 10, 2014 02:11
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LOU BEGAS MUSTACHE posted:If Vee had just killed RJ instead of also loving him, and had some sort of justification for her power complex alluded to in some way, it would hae been fine IMO. We're used to characters having their motivations/personality justified in their backstories in some way, but Vee didn't get that. I don't see why this seems especially unrealistic to people. Sure, it's excessive, but people have done worse things in life, and she is unquestioningly a sociopathic villain. And I think her power complex was pretty consistently represented from day one. Sleeping with RJ wasn't pragmatically necessary, but frankly neither was killing him; she could've taken his offer for a legacy cut and actually profited immensely for no risk. But that wasn't the point. As you said, the point was power, which drives literally every decision the character makes. Coercing RJ into sex isn't that different from every other soulless manipulation she performs to maintain her power, which is something she craves for its own sake. Poussey's comment that Vee is "a pedophile without the sex" is extremely accurate (though, obviously in the case of RJ, there was also sex.) Vee generates loyalty by targeting the weakest and most vulnerable people she can find - which outside prison meant literal children - and she uses emotional deprivation and isolation to keep them from leaving. There's a reason she went for Suzanne first; Suzanne is isolated and insecure to begin with, so Vee had no trouble creating a situation where Suzanne feels she has nothing else. It's not like Suzanne is a good lackey for her empire...actually, she's a terrible one because she is unreliable. But she was so *easy* to recruit, and that was the main reason. The manipulations of Taystee are only slightly more subtle: it's not like Vee actually cared if Taystee was involved with Poussey, she just knew she could use the fear of isolation (that Taystee would be branded a lesbian on the outside) to excise the only other emotionally relevant connection Taystee had, another implicit challenge to her power. Loved the whole season. There aren't many shows where I actually want to spend more time with most of the characters. I mean, except Larry and Polly. I don't even hate Piper anymore...barring the season premiere, she was 400% less insufferable this time. Xealot fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 02:17
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Am I an idiot, or does Rosa have a bit of an inconsistent accent? She sounds Hispanic when she's young and Russian when she's old.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:24
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Doppelganger posted:Am I an idiot, or does Rosa have a bit of an inconsistent accent? She sounds Hispanic when she's young and Russian when she's old. I got that, too. I decided to ignore it in lieu of how awesome her character became.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:38
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Doppelganger posted:Am I an idiot, or does Rosa have a bit of an inconsistent accent? She sounds Hispanic when she's young and Russian when she's old. Yeah, it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that she was the bank robber in the flashbacks on her episode. I thought it was one of the hispanic girls from the kitchen. PostNouveau fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 03:50
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Doppelganger posted:Am I an idiot, or does Rosa have a bit of an inconsistent accent? She sounds Hispanic when she's young and Russian when she's old. PostNouveau posted:Yeah, it took me an embarrassingly long time to realize that she was the bank robber in the flashbacks on her episode. I thought it was one of the hispanic girls from the kitchen.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:56
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Flagrant Abuse posted:She just sounds like she's smoked a few too many decades' worth of cigarettes to me. Yeah, she just sounds like a gravelly-voiced old lady version of the accent to me. And the age of the cars and the way they were dressed made it pretty obvious it was her and not one of the younger kitchen chicas
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Jun 10, 2014 04:00
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Doppelganger posted:Am I an idiot, or does Rosa have a bit of an inconsistent accent? She sounds Hispanic when she's young and Russian when she's old. I thought the same thing! Glad I'm not insane.
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Jun 10, 2014 04:03
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I'm with you on this one, for almost two whole seasons I was sure she was Russian. Her being Hispanic took me by surprise. Actually that brings me to a minor annoyance, the Spanish girl's accents and vocabularies are wildly inconsistent and I really can't tell what each of their ethnic backgrounds really are.
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Jun 10, 2014 04:26
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Daya needs to learn about speech bubble placement.
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Jun 10, 2014 04:33
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