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Getting a lot of back-and-forth on the Birmingham Trojan Horse thing now the Ofsted report's out. What, exactly, is going on over there? The BBC's pre-release analysis said that the situation was messy but not indicative of an organised plot, and now the papers are screaming CULTURE OF FEAR AND INTIMIDATION all across the front pages.
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Jun 9, 2014 18:45
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I think the fairest thing to say is that Michael Gove definitely didn't do anything wrong and faith-based free schools are in no way a bad idea.
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Jun 9, 2014 18:57
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Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:Yeah there's no way you could look after all of the members of parliament and lords all in the same place together it's impossible I mean they're not even all at this http://www.parliament.uk/about/how/occasions/stateopening/ Having lots of security for one day is exactly the same as having it all day, every day. All the MPs in one place would cause trouble. If you think of all the security that there is around parliament and Buckingham Palace, I think this would warrant something similar. Protest groups, rioters, terrorists...any big group with an issue would make a beeline for this beacon. That said I do kind of like the idea of them living in rows of terraced houses. Remember when you used to be able to walk down Downing Street, right by number 10?
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Jun 9, 2014 18:57
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Kin posted:No he wasn't: When someone let me know today, my first thoughts were 'that guy? He's an arse', but I couldn't quite remember why. Thanks for reminding me! Rip anyway.
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Jun 9, 2014 18:58
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RIP Rik Mayall, history's greatest monster.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:16
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To this day, Me and my Dad still will announce we're done in the bathroom with 'Neil, the bathrooms free. Unlike the country under the Thatcherite junta.' RIP Rik 
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Jun 9, 2014 19:29
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Darth Walrus posted:Getting a lot of back-and-forth on the Birmingham Trojan Horse thing now the Ofsted report's out. What, exactly, is going on over there? The BBC's pre-release analysis said that the situation was messy but not indicative of an organised plot, and now the papers are screaming CULTURE OF FEAR AND INTIMIDATION all across the front pages. The shouting is to distract you while they move the goalposts. Basically there's no evidence of extremist plots, or extremism at all. There's evidence of governors wielding too much personal influence and interfering in the curriculum, and of lovely conservative religious attitudes existing, and a real goldmine of a story where a school funded a trip to Saudi Arabia for muslim staff and students only. So obviously there are problems, but that's not really the same thing as extremism, now is it? The interesting thing is, a lot of the criticisms levelled at these schools remind me of my own Catholic high school. Pushing Christian values? Check, you'd get in trouble if you didn't participate in praying or singing at registration or in assemblies. Not teaching about other faiths? Check, they were required to do it but in practice it meant a cursory look at Judaism, qualified with 'this is all lies but we have to do this'. There's a lot of talk about how these religious leanings should have been 'dealt with', which is great and all, but then you have free schools touted as a way for communities to have schools run according to Christian principles. The hypocrisy is amazing, and it just goes to show how politicised the entire issue is. I bet if this investigation had been broader they'd have found similar issues in non-'muslim' schools too
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Jun 9, 2014 19:40
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winegums posted:That said I do kind of like the idea of them living in rows of terraced houses. Remember when you used to be able to walk down Downing Street, right by number 10? I'm in my late 30s and can't remember being able to do so - how long ago was this granddad?
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Jun 9, 2014 19:45
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Minghawk posted:I'm in my late 30s and can't remember being able to do so - how long ago was this granddad? They put the gates in when Thatcher was in there. She still got out, though.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:49
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winegums posted:Having lots of security for one day is exactly the same as having it all day, every day. But as I already pointed out, that security already exists and the security job is made much harder by them being scattered all over London. Like let's say there's 30 MPs who warrant a permanent security presence (cabinet minus those with official residences, plus leader of the opposition and a handful of shadow cabinet and maybe the Speaker (no idea if he gets permanent security or not). That's at least 120 officers, plus a reserve of 40 for leave/sickness, just to give each of them one minder each. If they were to take over, say, a couple of the blocks in Pimlico round the back of the Tate - a pleasant 5 minute stroll from Parliament and the rest of the village - they could easily completely lock them down with maybe a dozen officers, plus a reserve for minders for when they're out and about (a reserve they already have - take a look next time a minister goes walkabout, there's normally at least 3 or 4 of the scruffy buggers as well as the woodentops). Being so near Parliament means if the poo poo really hits the fan they've got a much bigger and more-qualified reserve to draw on than if something happened in Bayswater, Notting Hill, or Finchley (all of which have fairly high concentrations of MPs from what I recall from the expenses stories). They could even wire it up to the GSI and let them properly work from home without leaving all their poo poo on the train as they're wont to do, and think of the savings on travel expenses on time as well. Of course there's still a thousand and one objections to the idea, but security definitely isn't one of them.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:54
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Minghawk posted:I'm in my late 30s and can't remember being able to do so - how long ago was this granddad? I'm in my late thirties and I can remember being able to do it, there's even a picture of me posing outside the door (just before a copper shooed me away). While there were police in guard boxes on the Whitehall frontage, you could wander up to there from Horseguards without any problems. Yet another thing - along with litter bins on the Tube and indefinite detention without trial - that the IRA went and ruined for everyone.
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Jun 9, 2014 19:57
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Downing street being fenced off happened around the time of the mortar attacks by the IRA. Never did see how it was a rational response given that they were streets away, but oh well, that's security theatre for you. e: apparently, the gates appeared in '89, the mortar attacks happened because they couldn't get near downing street anymore
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Jun 9, 2014 20:01
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SybilVimes posted:Downing street being fenced off happened around the time of the mortar attacks by the IRA. Never did see how it was a rational response given that they were streets away, but oh well, that's security theatre for you. Nah, the fencing was much earlier than that, hence the mortar attacks. Gates were a Thatcher-era thing (sometime around the Brighton bombing IIRC), the mortar attack was during the Major government.
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Jun 9, 2014 20:03
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Chocolate Teapot posted:Not the People's poet. Cliff better be working on a suitable song of remembrance.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:03
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The Guardian posted:The French are right: tear up public debt – most of it is illegitimate anyway http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/french-public-debt-audit-illegitimate-working-class-internationalim It would be nice if this would happen in the UK. Completely impossible, but nice.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:11
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namesake posted:Yeah unfortunately it seems that he was very good at playing a prick because because he probably was a prick. Every person you know or will know will have a different opinion to you on one issue or another. Be it the economy, immigration, gun control, health care, partisanship, marriage, drugs, voting systems/laws [eg voter ID, AV etc], one of the million foreign policies, global warming, crime and all the other many issues. Noone is going to 100% agree with your politics all the time and someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them stupid. If anyone who has a different view to you is a prick I guess the world is one massive prick?  If it matters I was all for AV.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cbj2jOozyo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6HDuqfhJtU Fluo fucked around with this message at 21:18 on Jun 9, 2014 |
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Jun 9, 2014 21:15
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namesake posted:Yeah unfortunately it seems that he was very good at playing a prick because because he probably was a prick. gently caress off. Anyone who had worked with him has nothing but praise and it's very telling nearly every interview he ever did he did in character. Time for Mr Jolly Lives Next Door.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:37
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Pesmerga posted:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/french-public-debt-audit-illegitimate-working-class-internationalim The fearmongering about who owns the debt is dumb as all hell but otherwise I'm not surprised. Fluo posted:Every person you know or will know will have a different opinion to you on one issue or another. Be it the economy, immigration, gun control, health care, partisanship, marriage, drugs, voting systems/laws [eg voter ID, AV etc], one of the million foreign policies, global warming, crime and all the other many issues. Noone is going to 100% agree with your politics all the time and someone disagreeing with you doesn't make them stupid. If anyone who has a different view to you is a prick I guess the world is one massive prick? No I'm pretty sure I'm right about everything all the time and everyone should agree with me. Anyway I didn't call him stupid I called him a prick, which considering he revived an odious comedic character in a hit piece which was full of lovely insinuation if not flat out lies to achieve a political objective, is probably fair. Or he was politically neutral on the issue and did it for the money or for the hell of it, leading to the same conclusion on my part. Rik Mayall described himself as an anarcho-surrealist which honestly is the most perfect description of an educated contrarian who just can't admit it that I've ever heard. If it matters I still find him funny in things like the Young Ones.
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Jun 9, 2014 21:47
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Pesmerga posted:European social movements have also put in place debt audits, especially in countries hardly hit by the sovereign debt crisis, such as Greece and Spain. Farewell, English Language, we knew ye hardly 
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Jun 9, 2014 22:13
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Fluo posted:I guess the world is one massive prick? Oh yeah 
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Jun 9, 2014 22:26
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 Rik Mayall and a friend of mine at his book signing years back. This was totally spontaneous  (The book was poo poo sadly.)
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Jun 9, 2014 22:39
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Kin posted:No he wasn't: I remembered these as being idiotic, but I forgot quite how insulting they were to the intelligence of the electorate.
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Jun 9, 2014 22:42
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Whitefish posted:I remembered these as being idiotic, but I forgot quite how insulting they were to the intelligence of the electorate. And they worked!
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Jun 9, 2014 22:47
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SybilVimes posted:Downing street being fenced off happened around the time of the mortar attacks by the IRA. Never did see how it was a rational response given that they were streets away, but oh well, that's security theatre for you.
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Jun 9, 2014 23:03
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The Tory position on schools: local communities, teachers and parents should be the ones who decide on a school's ethos and religious focus, without meddling from councils or the government. Except for those people of course.
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Jun 9, 2014 23:17
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Pesmerga posted:http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/french-public-debt-audit-illegitimate-working-class-internationalim The objections in that article are dumb as hell. It's true that France's budgetary problems are due to undertaxation, but the tax cuts that created the problem were implemented by democratically elected governments and supported by the electorate. It's absurd to compare debts arising in this way to those incurred by dictatorships or totalitarian regimes. Likewise, the point about interest rates is daft - assuming he's referring to the yields on government debt, they're set by what investors are willing to accept, not by the governments themselves. Also, their statistics seem to be... well, straight up wrong: per eurostat, French government expenditure was 44.7% of GDP in 1978 and 57.1% in 2013. The whole thing seems like a badly thought-out rant and the proposed solution is nonsensical - who exactly are these generous "households and banks" that want to give France free money?
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Jun 9, 2014 23:24
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Renaissance Robot posted:Farewell, English Language, we knew ye hardly What?
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Jun 9, 2014 23:34
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Ras Het posted:What? They used "hardly hit" to mean that these countries were hit hard by the debt crisis, when "hardly hit" would mean that they were barely affected by the crisis in other words somebody made a mistake in phrasing THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE IS DEAD 
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Jun 9, 2014 23:44
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Gove wants British Values taught in all primary and secondary schools. But what are British Values?The Guardian posted:These values will include the primacy of British civil and criminal law, religious tolerance and opposition to gender segregation. So, single sex schools are anti-British? And the primacy of British civil and criminal law? How do we teach that, let alone teach it in primary schools? It's almost as if the muppet who wrote a book about Islamic boogie-men taking over the country, finds Islamic boogie-men taking over the country (within his ministerial portfolio, luckily) and is the right man to save us. El-
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Jun 9, 2014 23:59
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^^^ Watch out, you might find yourself working within a culture of fear and intimidation. On an entirely separate note, surprise unannounced Ofsted inspections anyone?LemonDrizzle posted:The objections in that article are dumb as hell. It's true that France's budgetary problems are due to undertaxation, but the tax cuts that created the problem were implemented by democratically elected governments and supported by the electorate. It's absurd to compare debts arising in this way to those incurred by dictatorships or totalitarian regimes. Why? I mean there's an obvious distinction to be made about how the people making those decisions got into power, but otherwise what's the difference? It's possible for an autocrat to pursue policies that they believe will benefit the people, and it's possible for democratically elected politicians to enrich themselves, destroy social infrastructure and commit future generations to servicing the burden of their decisions. And it's possible for the people under each system to approve or disapprove of what their government is doing, regardless of whether they have a say in the matter. How much is the electorate in the UK to blame for the current government's tax and austerity policies, the dismantling of the NHS and the welfare state, etc? baka kaba fucked around with this message at 00:09 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 00:06
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Farecoal posted:They used "hardly hit" to mean that these countries were hit hard by the debt crisis, when "hardly hit" would mean that they were barely affected by the crisis Mainly I was trying to make a dumb "language is hosed" joke based on the intersection of the intended meaning of "hardly" with a twist on the popular phrase "we hardly knew ye" and the biblical sense of "know". 
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Jun 10, 2014 00:59
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baka kaba posted:Why? I mean there's an obvious distinction to be made about how the people making those decisions got into power, but otherwise what's the difference? It's possible for an autocrat to pursue policies that they believe will benefit the people, and it's possible for democratically elected politicians to enrich themselves, destroy social infrastructure and commit future generations to servicing the burden of their decisions. And it's possible for the people under each system to approve or disapprove of what their government is doing, regardless of whether they have a say in the matter. What's the argument here though? That because a country decided to borrow money and piss it up the wall it should no longer owe the money in the first place? It's a bizarre thing to suggest. Why should a country be any less liable for loans it takes out to fund cuts to taxation compared to increasing public spending? Besides, in the UK only 29% of the national debt is held by overseas investors. 26% is held by the Bank of England, another 26% by UK pension funds and insurers. UK banks hold 10%, households have 1% (about £12bn) and local authorities bring up the rear (source (pdf)). Any move to default on it would hit savers right across the country, including 'normal' citizens and would never be politically acceptable, even ignoring the implications for the wider economy of the credibility loss for the government. Prince John fucked around with this message at 01:11 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 01:08
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Al Jazeera have done a couple of reports in the last few days on the MUZZIE SCHOOLS thing and they make it sound like a massive load of bollocks.
Radio Prune fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 04:12
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Radio Prune posted:Al Jazeera have done a couple of reports in the last few days on the MUZZIE SCHOOLS thing and they make it sound like a massive load of bollocks. It sounds like there's no chance of it being an organised Trojan horse plot but that standards across a range of schools had slipped and not been picked up on?
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Jun 10, 2014 06:49
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Total Meatlove posted:It sounds like there's no chance of it being an organised Trojan horse plot but that standards across a range of schools had slipped and not been picked up on? It's suspicious that "standards slipped" from outstanding to inadequate in the space of a few months at more than one school. e: That is, the results of the inspections are suspicious.
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Jun 10, 2014 07:16
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Total Meatlove posted:It sounds like there's no chance of it being an organised Trojan horse plot but that standards across a range of schools had slipped and not been picked up on? Meh, there's such a spectacular blame game going on at this point (ranging from the school's teachers, governors and parents all the way up to the Cabinet) that it becomes impossible to say exactly what's just gone on from watching news reports. We can confidently expect a complicated and prescriptive set of new guidelines to come out of this though, awkwardly imposed on top of all the existing legislation! LemonDrizzle posted:The whole thing seems like a badly thought-out rant and the proposed solution is nonsensical - who exactly are these generous "households and banks" that want to give France free money? When it comes to debt, there's always a certain amount of magical thinking about it, whether it's people in desperate financial circumstances convincing themselves that they have no obligation to pay their bills, because they're "Freemen on the land!" or people suggesting that a country's national debt can somehow be wished away. The thing is, there is a certain amount of truth in this thinking, especially at the macro level: money these days generally exists in the form of 1's and 0's on computers: it's rarely backed by anything and it's value largely depends on creditor's faith that the issuing country will be able to honour their debts. Without anything else changing, a simple collapse in confidence that a country's debts will be repaid can have catastrophic consequences for that country. If nothing else, defaulting on the national debt would make it extremely hard for France to borrow again in future and, for better or for worse, nations generally depend on being able to borrow money at cheap rates these days. (Note: it's generally better not to enquire too deeply into the global money markets and how money is created: what you learn is likely to result in cold sweats, sleepless nights and a generalised fear of the sky falling in  )
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Jun 10, 2014 07:26
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HortonNash posted:It's suspicious that "standards slipped" from outstanding to inadequate in the space of a few months at more than one school. John Harris has written a good article about this mess: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/09/lesson-birmingham-state-education-chaos-park-view-school-islam-islamophobia quote:If you want some indication of how messy it has all become, consider the fact that five separate investigations are now at various stages of completion, with no clear end in sight.
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Jun 10, 2014 07:28
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Whitefish posted:I remembered these as being idiotic, but I forgot quite how insulting they were to the intelligence of the electorate. I still think noone will top:   
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Jun 10, 2014 07:30
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Didn't the £250 million include the cost of holding the referendum IIRC?
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Jun 10, 2014 08:11
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Umiapik posted:(Note: it's generally better not to enquire too deeply into the global money markets and how money is created: what you learn is likely to result in cold sweats, sleepless nights and a generalised fear of the sky falling in Ooh, please do a megapost on the global money market. People don't need sleep all that much anyway.
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Jun 10, 2014 08:35
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