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Drifter posted:I came into ME3 after they had 'fixed' teh War Asset crap, but from what I played it really just felt like a progress achievement system more than anything else. The system was not too bad. The flavor texts for each asset were nice, and rallying the forces of the galaxy to a final battle against the Reapers made sense thematically. And it's a better system to influence the ending than having them be dependent on only very few important choices in the course of the game. But in the end they were just numbers you collected through quests. At least any time you convinced one of the big races to support you it should have gameplay consequences, from having Turian soldiers helping you in a few missions, to Salarian spec ops supporting you in other quests or Asari psionics helping you out against certain enemies. The smaller races could have unlocked new equipment and the like, etc. The system had huge potential but Bioware did not enough with it.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:25
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Torrannor posted:The system was not too bad. The flavor texts for each asset were nice, and rallying the forces of the galaxy to a final battle against the Reapers made sense thematically. And it's a better system to influence the ending than having them be dependent on only very few important choices in the course of the game. But in the end they were just numbers you collected through quests. They did drat near the bare minimum with it. People rag on the last five minutes of ME3 a lot (and they're right to do so) but the most perplexing bit of the game for me was the last mission as a whole. You've spent the past three games preparing the galaxy for war -- making allies, acquiring resources, and so on -- with the clear implication that these preparations would be brought to bear when the Reapers attack. I spent the entirety of Priority: Earth waiting for a scene where Wrex led a krogan charge, or the rachni boiled up from the ground to take out a bunch of Ravagers, or geth juggernauts dropped from the sky to plug a gap in a quarian line. Given that Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2, and even Dragon Age 2 (to a lesser extent) had endings in which characters or forces that you'd recruited appeared to help you out, I didn't think that this was an unreasonable expectation, but as it turned out, they didn't even try.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:53
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They were there more as guerrilla fighters, which makes sense, but doesn't make for an interesting battle scene like you're describing. The war assets thing was dumb cause it kind of marginalized a lot of the content by boiling it down to numbers. I kinda feel like the game would have been better served if that was a bit more obfuscated.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:57
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Alix Wilton Regan has been confirmed as one of the voices of the female Inquisitor- I don't know her work that well, but she was the voice of Samantha Traynor in ME3.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:06
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Leelee posted:Alix Wilton Regan has been confirmed as one of the voices of the female Inquisitor- I don't know her work that well, but she was the voice of Samantha Traynor in ME3. Ah so Brienne from Game of Thrones isn't English accent female Inquisitor, as some were speculating.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:14
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Captain Oblivious posted:I know. Them being forgeries doesn't really explain the reactions, is what I'm saying. All that suggests is Bhelen wasn't able to literally breach Harrowmont's personal vault or what have you, and chose the more expedient option. When you do, they explain that they approved the deals in question, and then someone altered one of the contracts after the fact; since both deals went through them, Harrowmount's probably on the level.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:18
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Leelee posted:Finally can see the Iron Bull's face: Tim Curry confirmed. 
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Jun 10, 2014 20:28
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If only Tim Curry voiced Iron Bull. 
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Jun 10, 2014 20:40
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Captain Oblivious posted:I've never gotten the Templar hate, at least in the context of Origins/Awakenings. The Templars are pretty much super reasonable people in origins. Gregoir is chill, Hadley acts more like Finn's loving mom than anything, Cullen is crazy but uhhhh he's also PTSD as all get out so I can't really blame him. Some of the templars are decent, others are dickheads, but in general the order's got a self-righteous streak and a paranoia that never seems totally justified. I mean, maybe it's just game balance getting in the way of the story, but "demons and abominations run amok in the Circle" seems like it's basically the worst possible scenario in terms of mages gone awry and I fixed that in a couple of hours with three dudes and a rock monster. Besides I have to be against the "these people scare us let's lock them up" faction just on principle. As for Anders, he's definitely an rear end but I'm okay with that. Some of his banter is funny and he's generally affable. He's pretty callous about those two dead templars, but his very first reaction when you meet him is "I didn't do it!" (because he knows he's going to get blamed, which he does) and considering his relationship with templars/the circle I can't blame him for not getting torn up about it. (Of course he's apparently a totally different character in DA2 so I can't speak to that.) Opposing Farce fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 20:42
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Schubalts posted:If only Tim Curry voiced Iron Bull. I already murdered the poo poo out of Tim Curry in Origins. 
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Jun 10, 2014 20:48
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Opposing Farce posted:Some of the templars are decent, others are dickheads, but in general the order's got a self-righteous streak and a paranoia that never seems totally justified. I mean, maybe it's just game balance getting in the way of the story, but "demons and abominations run amok in the Circle" seems like it's basically the worst possible scenario in terms of mages gone awry and I fixed that in a couple of hours with three dudes and a rock monster. Besides I have to be against the "these people scare us let's lock them up" faction just on principle. Then there's the whole "let's abuse lyrium" angle. It's ok for them but not for the mages. Riiiight.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:54
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KoB posted:I already murdered the poo poo out of Tim Curry in Origins. Holy poo poo, how did I not realize this. I knew he sounded familiar, but I thought it was just a Curry imitation, not Curry himself.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:54
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Opposing Farce posted:I mean, maybe it's just game balance getting in the way of the story, but "demons and abominations run amok in the Circle" seems like it's basically the worst possible scenario in terms of mages gone awry and I fixed that in a couple of hours with three dudes and a rock monster. CitrusFrog posted:Then there's the whole "let's abuse lyrium" angle. It's ok for them but not for the mages. Riiiight.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:59
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Also from what we're told lyrium is used in developing some of the Templars techniques. Tell me that Alastair bringing down a white light out of the sky that hammers mages senseless or farting a giant blue white cloud that eats mana isn't at least kinda magic.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:31
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But is Mark Meer going to be in the game? I miss Mark Meer.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:33
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Lotish posted:Also from what we're told lyrium is used in developing some of the Templars techniques. Tell me that Alastair bringing down a white light out of the sky that hammers mages senseless or farting a giant blue white cloud that eats mana isn't at least kinda magic. Alistair also notes if you bring up this specific point that the Chantry's official line on this is "Shut the gently caress up and if you keep asking questions no one will find your body."
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Jun 10, 2014 21:35
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Codependent Poster posted:But is Mark Meer going to be in the game? I miss Mark Meer. He was the voice of the Disciples in Awakening. If they are back, maybe he will be too? I kind of would like specializations to have an impact on dialogue now and again. Like, it would be nice to be able to take the Templar specialization as the Inquisitor and that unlocks a backstory to explain how you got Templar training, or choose Necromancer and you can tell Cassandra how you spent a few years in Nevarra studying, allowing you to commiserate about her homeland.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:45
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CitrusFrog posted:Then there's the whole "let's abuse lyrium" angle. It's ok for them but not for the mages. Riiiight. Templars can't A) Mind control people or B) morph into fey-like abominations from another world that propagate their ilk by forcing the souls out of people to make way for their own kind. I'll literally never understand how people don't think Mages are a society endangering threat. Keeshhound posted:When you do, they explain that they approved the deals in question, and then someone altered one of the contracts after the fact; since both deals went through them, Harrowmount's probably on the level. I'm aware he says that, but it still logically inconsistent with the reactions/actions of all parties involved to suggest that this is anything more than the evidence being fabricated. You have two notes. You show the same two notes to two different people, both are aware of the land involved and are aware it was promised to their House. Unless there were two different sets of notes (which would make it tremendously obvious from the start something is up), and there aren't, it's logically impossible for Harrowmont to be on the level. This may just be an issue of Bioware not thinking it through. Lotish posted:He was the voice of the Disciples in Awakening. If they are back, maybe he will be too? My biggest regret with Dragon Age is that A) They half assed specializations being story events in Origins and B) Gave up in 2 Captain Oblivious fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 21:52
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Captain Oblivious posted:Templars can't A) Mind control people or B) morph into fey-like abominations from another world that propagate their ilk by forcing the souls out of people to make way for their own kind. Because it appears as if only the countries in which magic (and mages) are regulated by the chantry have these huge problems with abominations and the like. Even Tevinter magisters seem to effectively police themselves so that no demonic possessions wreak havoc. The Dalish keepers seem to have it under control as well (except those who were infested with a terminal disease knows as "being-near-Kirkwall"). IIRC Rivaini mages are similarly unrestricted. Only the Qunari seem to treat their mages worse than the templars. In conclusion, how the chantry treats the mages probably plays a big role in these mages becoming psychotic and being easy prey to turn into abominations.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:59
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Tevinter mages may be disciplined about resisting abominations, but they also are so crazy deep into blood magic that they built an entire city to power demonic rituals and fed its entire lower class population to its bowels (shitthatshouldhavebeeninDA2insteadofwhatwegot.txt) If anything, the Chantry gives mages too much freedom, because while the way Qunari handle mages is pretty horrifiying, at least they're actually in for real control and don't hurt anyone. The Rivani were actually working out pretty well flying under the Chantry's radar, but recent events have brought them down on Rivain like a meteor.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:04
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Here's a link to the Twitch tutorial/interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fYCYGnUWww
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Jun 10, 2014 22:07
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Torrannor posted:Because it appears as if only the countries in which magic (and mages) are regulated by the chantry have these huge problems with abominations and the like. Even Tevinter magisters seem to effectively police themselves so that no demonic possessions wreak havoc. The Dalish keepers seem to have it under control as well (except those who were infested with a terminal disease knows as "being-near-Kirkwall"). IIRC Rivaini mages are similarly unrestricted. Only the Qunari seem to treat their mages worse than the templars. DEREGULATION  A) We have no evidence that countries with magic regulated by the Chantry have these "huge problems" as a matter of course. In fact, we have evidence directly to the contrary. The Right of Annulment has only been invoked 17 times in the last 700 years. That's Thedas wide, so it helps put in context how uncommon the situation in Origins and Dragon Age 2 is. It's easy to forget, but we are the protagonists and as such by default must be swept up in momentous events. If Annulment has only been invoked 17 times over 700 years across the continent, we can reasonably conclude that Abomination Fiestas are vanishingly rare events. Meanwhile, we have to imagine what would have happened in a scenario like this where the Templars don't exist at all. An Abomination infestation, out in the wilderness, that nobody knows about could spread unchecked and get very bad very fast. I'd say they're doing a pretty effective job looking at historical context. B) Tevinter? Okay you trade the rare necessary oppression fuelled blow up for oppression by the mages. I'm not sure how that's better. Dunno about you but I'd rather live in a country where the aristocracy can be rebelled against effectively if needs must, that can be stabbed like anybody else, not ones that can mind control me and/or rip out all my blood to fuel their Doctor Mengele experiments. Because they can.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:07
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Captain Oblivious posted:I'll literally never understand how people don't think Mages are a society endangering threat. Similarly Blood Magic in the lore is horrifying. During gameplay however, the Blood Magic powers are just underwhelming. And its effects can even be easily countered by saying a prayer. Bioware's storytelling in general has a problem where the story and the gameplay are very disconnected. Though to be fair, this issue is hardly unique to Bioware. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 22:09
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Lotish posted:Tevinter mages may be disciplined about resisting abominations, but they also are so crazy deep into blood magic that they built an entire city to power demonic rituals and fed its entire lower class population to its bowels (shitthatshouldhavebeeninDA2insteadofwhatwegot.txt) It depends, the Chantry is too repressive to not make mages tempted to turn to demons to escape their human tormentors, and they are not repressive enough to prevent any opportunities for mages to become abominations. The gentler approach can work as we see in several other societies. Or you can take the really harsh methods the Qunari use. Any way you see it, the Chantry is doing it wrong.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:09
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Raygereio posted:That's because from the player's perspective they don't really seem dangerous. As already mentioned: Abomination in the lore are a huge threat. During gameplay however, the vast majority of them are just mooks you slice through without a second thought. I guess I just overestimate people's abilities to grasp that it's a videogame and certain allowances are made for us, the protagonist, because it's a videogame. The Litany of Adralla, fyi, isn't exactly just a prayer.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:10
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Captain Oblivious posted:DEREGULATION That's why all Dalish mages become abominations and the old Dalish empire was a huge mage tyranny that only the Chantry emerging stopped... oh right, they were perfectly fine without keeping their mages as a sort of permanent prisoner. Or take Rivain, where the local Circle was just a front to let their mages live relatively unmolested, and nothing bad happened.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:15
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This is a dumb debate because like I pointed out, the Templar are always right in the world of Dragon Age so there is actually no reason to side with the mages because there is never a single example, aside from the main character if you play a mage, of one of the mages keeping a grip on their poo poo. Seems unlikely that would be the case, but that's how DA2 decided to play it. I mean I get your whole "mages are a threat etc" but think about the situation in terms of the real-world issue it's trying to mimic, which is the problem of Islamic extremists, and then re-apply your logic to a real group that aren't homogeneously corrupted and suddenly putting the entire population into camps because of the threat of a few seems morally reprehensible. That's essentially the appeal of siding against the Templar, but they're never wrong so it doesn't work. It's an interesting set-up in DA2 and it never pays off satisfactorily.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:15
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Torrannor posted:That's why all Dalish mages become abominations and the old Dalish empire was a huge mage tyranny that only the Chantry emerging stopped... oh right, they were perfectly fine without keeping their mages as a sort of permanent prisoner. Or take Rivain, where the local Circle was just a front to let their mages live relatively unmolested, and nothing bad happened. We know literally nothing about the old Dalish Empire with any credibility, and yeah it's actually specifically mentioned in the lore that Dalish mages becoming abominations is a thing that happens and when it does happen they have to hunt and kill their own Keeper. TheChirurgeon posted:This is a dumb debate because like I pointed out, the Templar are always right in the world of Dragon Age so there is actually no reason to side with the mages because there is never a single example, aside from the main character if you play a mage, of one of the mages keeping a grip on their poo poo. Seems unlikely that would be the case, but that's how DA2 decided to play it. I think people are more just upset that mages show themselves to be the legitimate threat that they are. No real world group meaningfully corresponds to people who can shoot lasers with their mind, mind control others, and if they ever have a moment of desperation or emotional weakness might let in eldritch beings from another world.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:19
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^^Edit: Of course it happens, but it never seems to have gone out of control like it does in Chantry lands, and mages becoming abominations isn't too uncommon under the Circle system as well. When did Wynne fail to keep a grip on her poo poo?
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Jun 10, 2014 22:19
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Captain Oblivious posted:I guess I just overestimate people's abilities to grasp that it's a videogame and certain allowances are made for us, the protagonist, because it's a videogame. The Litany of Adralla, fyi, isn't exactly just a prayer. I think that a well-executed game will reinforce lore and talk with actual evidence of it in gameplay. Mass Effect provides two good examples of threats talked up a lot being reinforced well. Everyone tells you krogan are seriously mean and tough, and lo and behold the krogan in the first two games are tough mofos either as enemies or allies. Krogan are hard-hitting enemies encountered as minibosses or as tough enemies in the late game, and it's easy to believe that entire hordes of krogan would be a serious threat. Likewise, Reapers live up to their billing by causing massive destruction whenever they appear and demanding enormous amounts of firepower to take down. Abominations and demons in Dragon Age just don't live up to the threat you're told about. No one ever becomes an abomination except in cutscenes, and they're unremarkable mooks save for a few odd bosses. The gameplay does not reinforce the dialogue and lore.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:19
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Lord Cyrahzax posted:Here's a link to the Twitch tutorial/interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fYCYGnUWww Watching a bit of this, I'm glad at least to see cross class combos are in. Hopefully that system is much more fleshed out. Also it looks pretty. Looks like it's Xbox One footage, and the system for switching between characters is, ah, not what I would use. Did you have to highlight a character with an on-field cursor to select them on the 360 version of the previous two games?
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Jun 10, 2014 22:19
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Cythereal posted:I think that a well-executed game will reinforce lore and talk with actual evidence of it in gameplay. Mass Effect provides two good examples of threats talked up a lot being reinforced well. Everyone tells you krogan are seriously mean and tough, and lo and behold the krogan in the first two games are tough mofos either as enemies or allies. Krogan are hard-hitting enemies encountered as minibosses or as tough enemies in the late game, and it's easy to believe that entire hordes of krogan would be a serious threat. Likewise, Reapers live up to their billing by causing massive destruction whenever they appear and demanding enormous amounts of firepower to take down. And yet people are willing to grant that the Darkspawn are a legitimate threat even though they're arguably the weakest enemies in the game v  vI agree that Blood Magic shouldn't be put in the players hands because it undermines the narrative, and fortunately it looks like Biowares finally caught on to that too since it's no longer PC useable in Inquisition. Took them long enough.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:20
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Torrannor posted:When did Wynne fail to keep a grip on her poo poo? When I told her I was enacting the Rite of Annulment my own drat self and cut her head off.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:And yet people are willing to grant that the Darkspawn are a legitimate threat even though they're arguably the weakest enemies in the game v I was playing DA:O last night and went to the "Refugees" encounter. I got distracted chasing an archer down on one side of the map and when I got back to the other I found that one unarmed peasant had beaten three darkspawn to death while getting feathered with arrows. When the fight was over he was roaring like a berserker; I was so proud of him.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:I think people are more just upset that mages show themselves to be the legitimate threat that they are. No real world group meaningfully corresponds to people who can shoot lasers with their mind, mind control others, and if they ever have a moment of desperation or emotional weakness might let in eldritch beings from another world. I'm not upset that the mages show themselves to be a legit threat--they should do that. I'm upset that it happens unilaterally, 100% of the time. Mages that become corrupted aren't the exception, they're the norm and so yeah the templar are obviously right and there's actually hilariously little gray area. You are right because the game makes it so. If only 5% of mages became corrupted or were blood mages or some poo poo, then there'd be a real debate to be had. You can say that there's "no real world analog" but it's pretty obvious what the inspirations for the conflict are, particularly in DA2, and Bioware has modeled the DA regions off real nations historically (the Qunari for example, are basically the Ottoman empire, the Orlesians the french, etc). You don't need to shoot eye lasers or have mind control to kill thousands of people. Bombs are just as effective than fireballs.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:26
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Brief tangent: I'm playing through Awakening, I'm in Kal'Hirol, I've got Sigrun with me...is there a reason why, despite having four ranks of Mechanical Expertise, clicking on traps or locks to disarm/pick them does absolutely nothing?  TheChirurgeon posted:I'm not upset that the mages show themselves to be a legit threat--they should do that. I'm upset that it happens unilaterally, 100% of the time. Mages that become corrupted aren't the exception, they're the norm and so yeah the templar are obviously right and there's actually hilariously little gray area. You are right because the game makes it so. If only 5% of mages became corrupted or were blood mages or some poo poo, then there'd be a real debate to be had. No, they really aren't just as effective. Mages can never be disarmed, mind control adds a whole litany of ways to thoroughly gently caress with society in untraceable ways, any crimes committed by a mage are a legal nightmare to produce meaningful evidence towards since they violate the laws of thermodynamics as a matter of course, and that still doesn't really address the Abomination issue.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:30
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Lotish posted:He was the voice of the Disciples in Awakening. If they are back, maybe he will be too? Who cares about that? His much more important role was the voice of Jethann (I couldn't loving believe it the first time I found that one out.) Captain Oblivious posted:I'm aware he says that, but it still logically inconsistent with the reactions/actions of all parties involved to suggest that this is anything more than the evidence being fabricated. You have two notes. You show the same two notes to two different people, both are aware of the land involved and are aware it was promised to their House. Unless there were two different sets of notes (which would make it tremendously obvious from the start something is up), and there aren't, it's logically impossible for Harrowmont to be on the level. I certainly wouldn't rule laziness on Bioware's part out, but all it would take to achieve the same results would be to get copies of the initial agreements and change what was being offered, and forge Harrowmont's signature. Not exactly difficult.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:30
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Keeshhound posted:Who cares about that? His much more important role was the voice of Jethann (I couldn't loving believe it the first time I found that one out.) What? No, think about it man. You are showing the exact same notes to two different people, both know what land they were being offered. You cannot deceive them both with the same two notes if the land is actually different. You would deceive one, and the other would call bullshit.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:32
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Sure, a lot of mages in Dragon Age 2 become abominations rather than return to the circle and be lobotomised. I don't think that means the Templars were right. Replaying DA2 and I'm actually enjoying it, easier to ignore it's more glaring flaws when it's a second play through.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:34
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Captain Oblivious posted:What? No, think about it man. You are showing the exact same notes to two different people, both know what land they were being offered. You cannot deceive them both with the same two notes if the land is actually different. Oh, is that how it shakes out? I'd assumed that they had each been offered different territories (which the contracts then "proved" had been offered to someone else as well). Given that Harrowmont's characterization was clearly meant to be "honorable but old-fashioned," I'm gonna blame that one on laziness then. Though, I suppose you could argue that buying votes isn't usually viewed as honorable either.
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Jun 10, 2014 22:37
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