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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Yeah the problem is that in Skin Game and Cold Days he just sortof went off the deep end with the objectification. Nothing in Skin Game was as unnecessary as the "vajazzling." I thought the vajazzling was totally in character for maeve.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:25
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Zore posted:Yeah, it seems the further down the totem pole you go the more turnover there is. Well, yeah, since if you bump off one of the queens the lower ones shift up.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:26
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mbottoms posted:I thought the vajazzling was totally in character for maeve. It was, but . . still.
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Jun 10, 2014 04:07
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mbottoms posted:I thought the vajazzling was totally in character for maeve. In character? Totally. I still didn't need to hear about it though. Foolie fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 07:06
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Mr Dresden is not good people, riding around in his headspace is uncomfortable at times. I am totally on board with it, because that uncomfortable feeling is what (i hope!) the author intended.
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Jun 10, 2014 13:09
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I for one hope to only ever read about characters with which I completely and utterly agree 100% of the time on every subject. That way I'm sure not to feel things (other than boredom) The actual scenes or observations don't particularly bother me, but I get that some people don't like reading about vajazzled faeries or (skin game) Demonic Murphy Snuff Dreams. So the only awkward point for me is when I get someone new into the series and I have to say "hey yeah there's some of this kinda stuff but its not that big a deal" For actual content, what's this "That seems inconsistent" quote people are talking about? I skimmed back a couple pages and didn't see what it was in reference to (I'm assuming a question at a Con/signing) treeboy fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 13:15
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If Cold Days had kept the sexually really hosed up Winter Fae (who being Fae are down for all kinds of poo poo because that's what they do) but left out (or at the very least toned down) the RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE I would have been happier. That Fae party scene actually worked for me, because it worked on a character level: first showing that Maeve is a tryhard, and second actually having Harry use his big brain instead of his little one to see insanely obvious Fae shenanigans as they are*. Didn't need RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE to figure out that the Winter Mantle is lovely for you, thanksverymuch. I just got tired of the constant "DUR HUR PRETTY LADY" in Skin Game. Not only did it waste a lot of page space that could have been spent on better topics but, even worse, it hosed up the flow and pacing of the writing. Harry could drop the Narrative Male Gaze next book and I would be very happy. It's not even particularly necessary at this point, since "Harry is a pig and sexually repressed" is not even in the top 10 of his more interesting characteristics. At the very least Butcher could stop spending so much time on the details. I'm fifteen books in and already sold on the series, so there are some other things I'd prefer to be reading about instead of the shape of the invariably attractive female character's tits and how good her body looks sweaty. *By contrast, it looked like Harry took several stupid pills during his confinement to Demonreach with regards to Mab, surprise surprise, being a slippery bastard.
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Jun 10, 2014 14:52
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treeboy posted:
When Harry is pierced by iron in Skin Game, he doesn't become paralyzed, whereas when he said "gently caress Winter Law" in Cold Days, he did. My guess is that saying "gently caress winter law" broke his bargain with Mab in some way and actually undid the prior healing (temporarily). Either way it seems like it's probably an important distinction.
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Jun 10, 2014 15:01
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:When Harry is pierced by iron in Skin Game, he doesn't become paralyzed, whereas when he said "gently caress Winter Law" in Cold Days, he did. He got stabbed by Lacuna with a nail in Cold Days and didn't get paralyzed then either. Even if it hurt a lot.
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Jun 10, 2014 15:33
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Well hey look it's me being my embarrassing goony self at the Seattle signing where I talked about word counts and gave him that art piece. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&t=1823s For Butcher's famous "I'm not gonna tell you~" bit, start here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&t=862s For Butcher's "That seems like an inconsistency" line, watch here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&t=968s If you have not ready Skin Game, stop before 35:08 where someone asks a very spoilery question.
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Jun 11, 2014 02:04
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butters: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJDn-ggqOo&t=1895s
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Jun 11, 2014 03:11
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Here's a thought: Butters, Andi, and Bob spin off Or, while we're at it, Elaine and Ramirez West Coast Files, or just for fun, Listens-to-Wind and Ebenezer Wild West Prequel. ...Maggie and Mouse YA
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Jun 11, 2014 04:03
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Maggie and Mouse YA So basically Clifford the big red dog + magic? I'm down.
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Jun 11, 2014 04:32
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Captain Capacitor posted:Well hey look it's me being my embarrassing goony self at the Seattle signing where I talked about word counts and gave him that art piece. Ahahah That was great.  He seems genuinely chill as gently caress.I'd be up for a Elaine spinoff, get to see what she's been upto. She has neat magical tools and i want more of that and whatever fires she has to stomp out while keeping the council from digging too deeply into her past. Which are the books that she appears in again? Summer Knight and?
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Jun 11, 2014 12:55
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Thyrork posted:Ahahah That was great. White night.
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Jun 11, 2014 12:58
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I wonder what the chances are she'll show up in Empty Night.
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Jun 11, 2014 13:31
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Thyrork posted:I'd be up for a Elaine spinoff, get to see what she's been upto. She has neat magical tools and i want more of that and whatever fires she has to stomp out while keeping the council from digging too deeply into her past. Damnit, between the rest of the spinoff propositions, I actually see why people resort to fanfiction, at least until the next book comes out. I am not okay with that.
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Jun 12, 2014 04:56
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New personal pet theory as I work my way through the re-read: Ivy's mother is in a persistent vegetative state. Nicodemus has the Grail.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:16
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:New personal pet theory as I work my way through the re-read: Wait how is this possible? I thought Ivy's mom is dead, or else Ivy wouldn't be The Archive.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:20
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Xtanstic posted:Wait how is this possible? I thought Ivy's mom is dead, or else Ivy wouldn't be The Archive. It's in Death Masks. The Archive mantle passed to Ivy when her mother went into the persistent vegetative state.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:21
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So are you assuming The Grail has restorative properties, ala The Last Crusade? Would that fit in-universe when we already have The Shroud of Turin?
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Jun 12, 2014 19:29
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Xtanstic posted:So are you assuming The Grail has restorative properties, ala The Last Crusade? Would that fit in-universe when we already have The Shroud of Turin? Artifacts powered by faith generally have the same properties as what the people believe they do, so it's not out of the question.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:31
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Xtanstic posted:So are you assuming The Grail has restorative properties, ala The Last Crusade? Would that fit in-universe when we already have The Shroud of Turin? Well, it's a traditional power: the whole point of the Grail in Arthurian Mythology (shameless plug!) is that drinking from it cures incurable wounds. That's why they're all questing for it -- to heal the Fisher King.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:It's in Death Masks. The Archive mantle passed to Ivy when her mother went into the persistent vegetative state.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:36
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Raygereio posted:That might have been retconned. In Small Favor it's mentioned Ivy's mother killed herself. I thought it was: Ivy's mother committed suicide, it's Ivy's grandmother that became a vegetable (and then died).
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Jun 12, 2014 20:07
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Raygereio posted:That might have been retconned. In Small Favor it's mentioned Ivy's mother killed herself. Maybe she didn't do a good job?
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Jun 12, 2014 20:10
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I'm rereading skin game and wow you do pick up on a lot of little hints in the dialogue. Also I'm pretty sure Nick had determined way before hand he was going to use his daughter for the gate of blood considering how he responds to Micheal's talk of family before Harry had even told Nick about the replacement for Murphy.
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Jun 12, 2014 20:22
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Azuth0667 posted:I'm rereading skin game and wow you do pick up on a lot of little hints in the dialogue. Also I'm pretty sure Nick had determined way before hand he was going to use his daughter for the gate of blood considering how he responds to Micheal's talk of family before Harry had even told Nick about the replacement for Murphy. Not to mention her kind of fatalistic dialogue with Harry. Maybe she knew even then? Could read it either way, honestly.
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Jun 13, 2014 06:13
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Crazy out there theory regarding the gate of blood: Could the reason Nicodemus gave his daughter a coin in the first place be so that he had a way to get past the gate of blood centuries later? It does seem out of character for him to recruit somone he had such a strong connection with who might be exploited as a weakness by his enemies.
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Jun 13, 2014 08:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:New personal pet theory as I work my way through the re-read: That's a horrifying, awesome idea.
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Jun 13, 2014 10:48
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Thyrork posted:Mr Dresden is not good people, riding around in his headspace is uncomfortable at times. It's kinda one of the big themes of the series: It's ok to have hosed up desires, it's actually acting on them that makes you a monster. Azuth0667 posted:I'm rereading skin game and wow you do pick up on a lot of little hints in the dialogue. Also I'm pretty sure Nick had determined way before hand he was going to use his daughter for the gate of blood considering how he responds to Micheal's talk of family before Harry had even told Nick about the replacement for Murphy. I thought that was the whole reason Tessa was trying to stop him. Nick, Tessa, and Deidre all knew in advance what had to be done and Tessa didn't want Deidre to die. I don't think they knew more than a few years in advance at most though, because the sting was only setup after Nick pissed of Marcone. Although if that's right I think Tessa is pretty dumb to join Nick and blam Harry at the end of Skin Game.
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Jun 13, 2014 12:40
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Vicissitude posted:Not to mention her kind of fatalistic dialogue with Harry. Maybe she knew even then? Could read it either way, honestly. Another thing I just ran across He attempts to negotiate with Harry at the gate of blood first. He knew and I guess he thought he went through all of his possibilities and this was his only option. Its odd that right before he stabs her he says her 'loving him' is a problem. I still want to know who the enemy is too, I'm not convinced its Nemesis yet. E: Darkrenown posted:I thought that was the whole reason Tessa was trying to stop him. Nick, Tessa, and Deidre all knew in advance what had to be done and Tessa didn't want Deidre to die. I don't think they knew more than a few years in advance at most though, because the sting was only setup after Nick pissed of Marcone. Although if that's right I think Tessa is pretty dumb to join Nick and blam Harry at the end of Skin Game. She mentions 'the chain' so I assume its an event chain of some sort that's inevitable after the sacrifice at the gate of blood. If she wanted to end everything though she could have just killed Anna Valmont or Binder, both of which would have been considerably easier to kill that Harry. There's probably something more to this that we won't get until further on in the series, this seems like another Grave Peril ballroom event. Azuth0667 fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 14:18
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Darkrenown posted:It's kinda one of the big themes of the series: It's ok to have hosed up desires, it's actually acting on them that makes you a monster. At the end of the day, people do a lot of stupid and nonsensical things when family is involved.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:20
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Azuth0667 posted:Another thing I just ran across He attempts to negotiate with Harry at the gate of blood first. He knew and I guess he thought he went through all of his possibilities and this was his only option. Its odd that right before he stabs her he says her 'loving him' is a problem. I still want to know who the enemy is too, I'm not convinced its Nemesis yet. "The Adversary" is How christians often refer to Satan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversary_(disambiguation) . In the context of fallen angels using the term the only thing that fits is the White God. Nick told his daughter that dying in the Underworld would ostensibly save her from The White God's judgement when she died because the Underworld is outside his sphere of influence. That was the prelude to the conversation Harry had with Hades about what happens to evil souls that come to his realm. Hades was saying "yeah she's still going to suffer for eons for the crimes she committed while alive - Nick didn't find his daughter a loophole." Nick almost certainly knows this, which makes what he chose to do all the more tragic.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:53
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Darkrenown posted:It's kinda one of the big themes of the series: It's ok to have hosed up desires, it's actually acting on them that makes you a monster. That said, I think it's pretty weak activism to take up arms against pulp novels and that there are bigger struggles to be won. Wachepti posted:"The Adversary" is How christians often refer to Satan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adversary_(disambiguation) . In the context of fallen angels using the term the only thing that fits is the White God. Nick told his daughter that dying in the Underworld would ostensibly save her from The White God's judgement when she died because the Underworld is outside his sphere of influence. That was the prelude to the conversation Harry had with Hades about what happens to evil souls that come to his realm. Hades was saying "yeah she's still going to suffer for eons for the crimes she committed while alive - Nick didn't find his daughter a loophole." Nick almost certainly knows this, which makes what he chose to do all the more tragic. Wait, I thought it was pretty clear that the Adversary referred to Nemesis. Unless you're suggesting that they're the same entity. Which is even more hosed up and doesn't make any sense at all. From a purely metacontextual sense, Nemesis and the Abrhamic God [i]could] be the same thing I suppose, but it doesn't really seem to fit with Butcher.
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Jun 13, 2014 15:36
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ZorajitZorajit posted:A narrative where the hero ogles women and then tells us about it contributes to a societal acceptance where Dresden's behaviour is social acceptable and not too be shamed and rejected. It's not about anything in-universe, it's purely that authors shouldn't include this sort of content in the first place. Flaws make characters relatable, and Dresden himself does a pretty good job of letting us know it's not acceptable to act on those thoughts. I'd rather have a society that accepts that sometimes people have thoughts that shouldn't be acted on but are normal to have than to remove all instances of it so kids growing up can have even worse issues with all their bad, unacceptable thoughts that apparently no one else ever has. Dresden being visually attracted to women is Dresden acting on biological programming as a man. Straight and gay men look at the same places on their preferred partners, so it's not just about objectifying women. Let's not make Dresden even less real because some people want to thought-police society.
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Jun 13, 2014 15:54
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TenaciousJ posted:Flaws make characters relatable, and Dresden himself does a pretty good job of letting us know it's not acceptable to act on those thoughts. I just wish Dresden was making a little more progress as a character in this area instead of backsliding so badly. The high point on his character arc in this regard was probably when he told Molly that sex with his apprentice was never, ever going to happen because that would be morally wrong. Since that time . . . well, the past few books have been verging into John Ringo -esque "I hate rapists because I'm a rapist at heart myself but don't act on it" voyeur-porn. It's a known character flaw, it's explained in the plot and there are story reasons for it, just. . yeurgh. It's not like Winter is mating season.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:05
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ZorajitZorajit posted:Wait, I thought it was pretty clear that the Adversary referred to Nemesis. Unless you're suggesting that they're the same entity. Which is even more hosed up and doesn't make any sense at all. From a purely metacontextual sense, Nemesis and the Abrhamic God [i]could] be the same thing I suppose, but it doesn't really seem to fit with Butcher. No, I understand that's the prevailing view around here but I don't think it makes much sense. (for him to be referring to Nemesis)
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Jun 13, 2014 16:14
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Wachepti posted:No, I understand that's the prevailing view around here but I don't think it makes much sense. I'm inclined to agree with you that "The Adversary" was a reference to the White God in that context. I do partly wonder if "Nemesis" in the Dresdenverse is another name for Lucifer -- it doesn't seem likely but it does seem possible.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I do partly wonder if "Nemesis" in the Dresdenverse is another name for Lucifer -- it doesn't seem likely but it does seem possible. I doubt this, considering how Nicodemus talks about it during the "this conversation is a metaphor" conversation back at the aquarium. I'm pretty sure the Denarians are firmly set against the Outsiders, but doing it on their own terms while fighting against the White God.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:22
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