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duckmaster posted:Isn't it a massive philosophical question as well? Sort of like if a tree falls in a forest and nobodys there, does it make a sound? If I experience terrible pain but don't remember it, did I experience that pain? I had that pain and experienced it but I don't have an experience of that pain so I didn't have it.. Well, when you're in pain, your brain doesn't just try to dump as much serotonin and dopamine into you as it can to relieve the pain, it's also under a fuckton of stress, so it's firing off all sorts of OH HOLY poo poo gently caress ME stress hormones at the same time. Presumably, you'd still have "proof" of the pain in your bloodstream after the fact.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:04
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Right, but you'd so be spared the secondary effects of pain induced stress, and likely be healthier overall for it.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:11
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I've had it a bunch of times. It's exactly the same mechanism as when you black out from drinking. I kept having surgeries on my hand after I crushed it in a car wreck in 2013 and my pinky was reattached, and it was administered as part of general anesthesia (I can't comment on exactly how routine this is, though). I'm not sure if this might have been just because there is sometimes a need to be woken up so the plastic surgeon can assess my ability to move my hand, and you can be brought back to consciousness yet still in that black-out "fugue state". My cousin had the similar procedures because of a similar type of injury, but he REMEMBERS being woken up. He told me about looking at his filleted-open hand at his own request, moving it or something, then going back to sleep. This would have been in the early nineties or even earlier, which is (I believe) before Versed was being used, or at least was mainstream. Most EMT's have really strict protocols to adhere to, and would probably only be able to administer the drug under a Doctors explicit direction (these vary by state in the US). If it's used in a hospital setting, it's probably under the observation of multiple doctors - and it's inappropriate use is probably the type of ethics violation and/or malpractice they work really hard to avoid. So yeah, it's an interesting thing to think about, but not something I'd personally worry about because in The infrequent instances that it IS used, it's drat justified. Reminds me a little bit of http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scopolamine, which criminals in South America use to incapacitate you and get you into a highly suggestible, passive state in which you'll reputedly help them carry the stuff they're stealing from you.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:21
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The Scientist posted:
I'm surprised how succesful some people are at tricking people into drinking solutions of it. They must really have a hard on for the con women who administer the spiked drinks to them because alkaloids in general taste very horrible and bitter. How strong does scopolamine taste? Some alkaloids are pretty manageable taste wise, while others, such as strychnine can be detected by it's strong bitter taste a mile away. Speaking of which, strychnine is one of the scariest plant toxins i can think of. Inhibits glycine, which is a neurotransmittor inhibitor of the spinal cord, basically causes your muscles to spasm and convulse. Imagine having each skeletal muscle you have convulsing and your body all arched out as can be, and then death comes from asphyxiation caused by said spasms. It doesn't affect your brain directly either, so ones mind is completely clear. It's an amazing looking molecule too, it's amazing how plants have evolved to synthesize such compounds for themselves, starting from innocuous terpenes and amino acids in the case of strychnine.  Boggles the mind the accumulated random mutations and selections which finally makes such a powerful poison able to be produced. Falukorv has a new favorite as of 11:08 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 11:05
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I might sound a bit thick here but is the purpose of Midazolam to induce amnesia or is this just a side effect of its anesthetic function? and if so, whats the purpose of inducing amnesia??
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Jun 10, 2014 15:56
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Falukorv posted:Some alkaloids are pretty manageable taste wise, while others, such as strychnine can be detected by it's strong bitter taste a mile away. There was a case in the early 90's of girls playing a high school basketball game who were slipped strychnine and developed more or less permanent tremors. I assume they were too thirsty to notice the taste. I tried finding a mention of it online, but instead I found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_sport#Strychnine_at_the_Olympics quote:Thomas Hicks, an American born in England on January 7, 1875, won the Olympic marathon in 1904. He crossed the line behind a fellow American Fred Lorz, who had been transported for 11 miles of the course by his trainer, leading to his disqualification. However, Hicks's trainer Charles Lucas, pulled out a syringe and came to his aid as his runner began to struggle.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:08
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spleen merchant posted:I might sound a bit thick here but is the purpose of Midazolam to induce amnesia or is this just a side effect of its anesthetic function? and if so, whats the purpose of inducing amnesia?? So if you wake up while they're cutting into your chest or your eye, you don't go insane from enduring minutes or hours of unspeakable pain, as some anesthetics have been known to wear off unexpectedly while the paralytics that keep your unconscious body from jerking around do not.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:10
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spleen merchant posted:I might sound a bit thick here but is the purpose of Midazolam to induce amnesia or is this just a side effect of its anesthetic function? and if so, whats the purpose of inducing amnesia?? Apparently the purpose is to forget the last page of posts. Good news, it worked! And, to provide some content, the current situation with Casey Kasem's wife and children fighting disturbs the hell out of me. Basically, he's mute, and his children had been wanting to see him, but his current wife wouldn't tell anyone where he was. The kids got custody and he was found in Washington State, which is possibly a happy ending, but the fact that we, the public, have no idea what Kasem himself wants, yet this battle is being played out so publicly, it's disconcerting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casey_Kasem Grassy Knowles has a new favorite as of 16:42 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 16:32
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Jack Gladney posted:So if you wake up while they're cutting into your chest or your eye, you don't go insane from enduring minutes or hours of unspeakable pain, as some anesthetics have been known to wear off unexpectedly while the paralytics that keep your unconscious body from jerking around do not. If you were fully paralyzed on the operating table, how would they know you had regained consciousness and thus required the use of Midazolam?
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Jun 10, 2014 16:38
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning Doctors worldwide drilled holes in skulls from at least 6500 BC until well into the modern era. They performed these operations to cure seizures, migraines and mental disorders, and also to remove fragments of fractured skull and pooled blood. To this days, there's wackos who do it as new age medicine. Here's a quote from someone who was really happy to remove part of his skull: quote:After some time there was an ominous sounding schlurp and the sound of bubbling. I drew the trepan out and the gurgling continued. It sounded like air bubbles running under the skull as they were pressed out. I looked at the trepan and there was a bit of bone in it. At last!
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Jun 10, 2014 16:43
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Phyzzle posted:There was a case in the early 90's of girls playing a high school basketball game who were slipped strychnine and developed more or less permanent tremors. I assume they were too thirsty to notice the taste. Yeah i might be wrong, it is insanely bitter but according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strychnine_poisoning#Notable_strychnine_poisonings) several people have been fooled anyway. But even if you can taste the bitterness, one might be fooled anyway if it's laced in a drink that is expected to have a bitter taste. Like a guy in that linked who drank it from cough syrup, which is essentially a foul tasting concoction of bitter plant-based alkaloids in the first place. So if you can trick someone that they're drinking medicine, you can also trick them into drinking strychnine. Anyway, surprising to hear about this more modern cases, as strychnine is something i imagined people were doing pre-1930's. You know, royal assassinations, 19th century crime novels type poo poo.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:50
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Strychnine poisonings are kinda scary I guess. I probably wouldn't want to ingest poison to run faster than death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hicks_(athlete) ... then again its also forbidden now for athletes. E: this is about twitchy Thomas more than the Olympic article as a whole 
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Jun 10, 2014 17:31
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amityville anus posted:Strychnine poisonings are kinda scary I guess. I probably wouldn't want to ingest poison to run faster than death. 6 posts up, duder.
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Jun 10, 2014 19:33
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MrGreenShirt posted:If you were fully paralyzed on the operating table, how would they know you had regained consciousness and thus required the use of Midazolam? Many hospitals have begun using more advanced monitoring devices that will tell everyone that the patient needs more anesthesia, but there's no guarantee every operating room uses them and they are also unreliable in many cases. There are certain techniques, like applying a tourniquet to an arm before muscle relaxers are administered, thus allowing the patient to move their arm should they become conscious. Like all things in life, it has a wikipedia article. You all may also be comforted by the fact that, not only is this incident uncommon, but you often do not remember anything that happens during moments of consciousness.
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Jun 10, 2014 21:23
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Scopolamine! I used to work at a major pharmaceuticals company and the plant had all sorts of crazy dangerous chemicals that where laying around. Which included 100Kg of 100% pure scopolamine which was one of the deadliest things in the plant for use in a sea sickness patch we made that just sat out in cupboard with a few warning labels on it. We also had things like Rivastigmine tartrate which are nerve toxins without any refinement or alteration, and morphine so concentrated a single drop on your skin can cause an overdose.
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Jun 11, 2014 00:54
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:You all may also be comforted by the fact that, not only is this incident uncommon, but you often do not remember anything that happens during moments of consciousness. This is true, I regained consciousness in the middle of my wisdom teeth being taken out to the point where they literally had to strap me to the table so they could knock me out again (I guess I was a little upset about it). After the surgery the only thing I remember is the moment before I went under looking at the IV in my hand and then waking up with the IV in my other hand with leather straps on both of my arms.
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Jun 11, 2014 01:21
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Enoch Root posted:This is true, I regained consciousness in the middle of my wisdom teeth being taken out to the point where they literally had to strap me to the table so they could knock me out again (I guess I was a little upset about it). When I had mine taken out, I remained, strictly speaking, conscious. Nitrous is the way to go for that poo poo. It's a lovely time.
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Jun 11, 2014 02:32
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duckmaster posted:Isn't it a massive philosophical question as well? Sort of like if a tree falls in a forest and nobodys there, does it make a sound? If I experience terrible pain but don't remember it, did I experience that pain? I had that pain and experienced it but I don't have an experience of that pain so I didn't have it.. I had my knee operated on when I was 18, and the nerve block didn't work. When I woke up from the anesthesia as planned, I felt everything they had done during the surgery- which amounted to cutting through my tibia, rotating it inwards 25 degrees, reattaching, then aligning what was left of my kneecap in an artificial socket. Lots of bone pain, to say the least. My parents were there as I woke up and began to feel everything, and apparently it only took a minute or two until a doctor had me knocked out and rolled over to get a proper nerve block in my thigh again. I don't remember any of this, but I always chalked it up to the anesthetic, or shock or something. Now, I wonder. When they did the second knee a year later, they kicked up the anaesthesia and triple checked the nerve block before I went under. Smooth sailing on that one!
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Jun 11, 2014 04:32
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:When I had mine taken out, I remained, strictly speaking, conscious. Meh, it didn't make the bonesaw to my jaw any less nerve-wracking (and it still hurt, though obviously not as much as it would without nitrous and novocaine).
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Jun 11, 2014 04:46
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Jack Gladney posted:anesthetics have been known to wear off unexpectedly while the paralytics that keep your unconscious body from jerking around do not.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intraoperative_awareness
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Jun 11, 2014 06:39
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Does anybody have the link from the last thread about that Russian guy who personally executed something like 1000 people?
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Jun 11, 2014 08:35
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From today's Wikipedia featured article. Two people cross a racetrack to go help a driver whose car had caught on fire, just as four more cars are coming around a curve. One of the guys narrowly makes it to the other side. The other... Doesn't. Emphasis added by me. quote:As the two men started to run across the track, four cars driven by Hans-Joachim Stuck, Pryce, Jacques Laffite and Gunnar Nilsson were exiting the final corner and coming onto the main straight. High-speed accidents scare the poo poo out of me 
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Jun 11, 2014 09:17
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Speaking of strychnine, there was a recent case in Australia where a father went to a chemist (=drugstore, for the Americans) looking for something to help stop his son from biting his nails. Somehow he was sold a bottle of strychnine to put on his kid's fingers. Later that day someone realised what had happened and there was a massive media campaign to try to warn the guy, luckily he was contacted in time. But it's pretty crazy that a suburban chemist had bottles of strychnine sitting on the shelves, could've easily ended very badly.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:04
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The Geoff posted:Speaking of strychnine, there was a recent case in Australia where a father went to a chemist (=drugstore, for the Americans) looking for something to help stop his son from biting his nails. Somehow he was sold a bottle of strychnine to put on his kid's fingers. Later that day someone realised what had happened and there was a massive media campaign to try to warn the guy, luckily he was contacted in time. But it's pretty crazy that a suburban chemist had bottles of strychnine sitting on the shelves, could've easily ended very badly. I dunno, it isn't that odd to me. From what I understand, many pharmacists still have laudanum in stock (basically an alcohol/opium cocktail) in case... you know, someone needs it? That's about as fatal as anything else, just more fun.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:09
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The Geoff posted:Speaking of strychnine, there was a recent case in Australia where a father went to a chemist (=drugstore, for the Americans) looking for something to help stop his son from biting his nails. That seems somewhat excessive given that you can buy Cayenne pepper-flavored nail polish as a nail biting deterrent. (Not that it worked on me as a child, I just adopted a taste for peppers. But at least I didn't convulse and die horribly!)
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Jun 11, 2014 10:12
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I dunno, it isn't that odd to me. From what I understand, many pharmacists still have laudanum in stock (basically an alcohol/opium cocktail) in case... you know, someone needs it? That's about as fatal as anything else, just more fun. I work in a pharmacy in the UK and holy Christ no, we don't have laudanum or strychnine just sitting around in case somebody needs them. We do have a massive attic that was full of ancient bottles of horrifying stuff, and when we were finally able to explain this to the regulators, they got very quiet and sent over some men in serious gear to get rid of it all.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:19
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Enoch Root posted:After the surgery the only thing I remember is the moment before I went under looking at the IV in my hand and then waking up with the IV in my other hand with leather straps on both of my arms. It's not a horrifying story, but I was watching a Tested podcast where Adam Savage told the most awesome surgery story ever. James Randi (the famous magician and debunker) was having surgery done, and was chatting with the nurse before going under. Eventually he tells her about being a magician etc. "Oh, so you're a magician? I'll show you a trick. Close your eyes and count backwards from 10." So he counted backwards 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 and when he opened his eyes, he was in the recovery room! The nurse had memorized where he dozed off during the count-down and had restarted him counting at that number while he was waking up. Apparently, it felt completely seamless to him, and he regards it as the best magic trick he's ever been part of.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:36
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HopperUK posted:I work in a pharmacy in the UK and holy Christ no, we don't have laudanum or strychnine just sitting around in case somebody needs them. We do have a massive attic that was full of ancient bottles of horrifying stuff, and when we were finally able to explain this to the regulators, they got very quiet and sent over some men in serious gear to get rid of it all. Thank gently caress for that. I have a friend who worked in a pharmacy, and she told me they had all sorts of bizarre poo poo lying around still. Old pharmaceuticals ain't nothin' to gently caress with. KozmoNaut posted:It's not a horrifying story, but I was watching a Tested podcast where Adam Savage told the most awesome surgery story ever. This is an awesome story. I love James Randi.  Could I get a link to the episode, by chance?
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Jun 11, 2014 11:10
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Could I get a link to the episode, by chance? It's one of their "Still Untitled - The Adam Savage project" podcasts, but I can't remember which one. You should watch/listen to all of them, though, they're full of great stories and random geeky ramblings on everything from home ownership to which place in the Mission District has the best burritos.
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Jun 11, 2014 12:19
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Mikl posted:From today's Wikipedia featured article. You can find the video somewhere. Apparently, human beings hit by 200 MPH cars sound like hitting cardboard boxes.
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Jun 11, 2014 13:00
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bean_shadow posted:You can find the video somewhere. Apparently, human beings hit by 200 MPH cars sound like hitting cardboard boxes. Extremely not mind-safe, obviously. I had actually thought that Tom Pryce was the marshal who got hit, not an entirely separate driver.
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Jun 11, 2014 14:48
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Your Gay Uncle posted:Does anybody have the link from the last thread about that Russian guy who personally executed something like 1000 people? Vasili Blokhin quote:Blokhin's most infamous act was the April 1940 execution by shooting of over 7,000 Polish prisoners interned in the Ostashkov prisoner of war camp—mostly military—and police officers who had been captured following the Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939—as part of the extended Katyn massacre.[10] ... Not much left to say after that.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:32
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"Twilight sleep" was made up of morphine and scopolamine, this is what they used to give to women in labor. They woke up with a baby that they didn't remember having, and no memory of pain. From the unfortunately brief Wikipedia article:. quote:The next thing I knew I was awake [...] and then I thought to myself "I wonder how long before I shall begin to have the baby," and while I was still wondering a nurse came in with a pillow, and on the pillow was a baby, and they said I had had it—perhaps I had—but I certainly can never prove it in a courtroom.[6] As we've been discussing though, with scopolamine, no memory of pain does not mean no pain. Because the combination of twilight sleep and the pain of childbirth was so disorienting and overwhelming, it could bring on panic and delirium. Some of these woman had to be physically restrained by being tied at the hands and feet with lambswool restraints or put into straitjackets. Their heads might also be wrapped to keep them from injuring themselves in their thrashing. 
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Jun 11, 2014 15:56
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:I dunno, it isn't that odd to me. From what I understand, many pharmacists still have laudanum in stock (basically an alcohol/opium cocktail) in case... you know, someone needs it? That's about as fatal as anything else, just more fun.  There have been cases in the past where people have attempted to consume a number of bottles of it for recreational purposes. Ingesting that much suspended clay alongside something that reduces gut water content is a bad idea.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:17
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bean_shadow posted:You can find the video somewhere. Apparently, human beings hit by 200 MPH cars sound like hitting cardboard boxes. quote:He died on impact, and his body was badly mutilated by Pryce's car.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:50
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SLOSifl posted:And you will appreciate how understated this sentence is: It can be pretty bad, I have a paramedic friend who responded to a scene where a street racer hit a pedestrian (can't remember how fast they were going). Basically the victim was apparently cut in half with the top half being found about 100ft down the road from the bottom half  Needless to say she had to take some time off after that one.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:11
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Mr. Flunchy posted:Also in disturbing cetacean news, check out this bizarre as gently caress 1960s experiment to teach dolphins to speak English: This is one of the craziest loving things I've ever read.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:47
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1stGear posted:Extremely not mind-safe, obviously. I had actually thought that Tom Pryce was the marshal who got hit, not an entirely separate driver. Jeeeeeeeesus. And I thought the other video I'd found was bad, where the camera was focused on the burning car from the front and all you see of the accident is a spray of gibs across the bottom of the screen.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:48
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He certainly paid the Pryce for that error
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Jun 11, 2014 23:08
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Kimmalah posted:No it wasn't Aatrek. Satisfyingly, as I finished reading the incredibly disturbing transcript, I switched tabs to amazon prime to find something to watch, and the first thing my eyes saw was for "deadwood". Gave me a much-needed chuckle.
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