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Since it recently came up, is there any reason I'm missing that a Mage couldn't cast Mage Armor as an extended spellcasting and just give it an insane duration?
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Jun 11, 2014 04:37
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Thomamelas posted:Since it recently came up, is there any reason I'm missing that a Mage couldn't cast Mage Armor as an extended spellcasting and just give it an insane duration? I believe that is the crux of the biscuit, that it is easy and totes painless to slap it on in the morning and then just go about your day.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:06
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Mage supremacy exists in the WoD for the exact same reason it exists in Dungeons and Dragons: there is a huge and idiosyncratic spell list which includes a bunch of arbitrarily long-lasting AND arbitrarily powerful buffs.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:08
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Ferrinus posted:Mage supremacy exists in the WoD for the exact same reason it exists in Dungeons and Dragons: there is a huge and idiosyncratic spell list which includes a bunch of arbitrarily long-lasting AND arbitrarily powerful buffs. To be fair, I thought the mage supremacy thing was intentional. YOU MAGES ARE THE SUPER SECRET NERD CLUB WHO KNOW WHAT IS REALLY GOING ON, UNLIKE THOSE HAIRY JOCKS AND PALE POPULAR SOCIALS and so on
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Jun 11, 2014 05:10
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Hilariously, it is not. They were intended to be balanced with vampires and werewolves, such that (for instance) the 5-dot "you have a fly speed" spell leaves you moving pathetically slowly because, hey, vampires and werewolves can't fly at all. It's just, when each thing you can do with magic has its own special resolution rules, and the writers have bound themselves to writing like fifty thousand different things you can do with magic, a bunch of them are going to be "You get +X to your armor, or your strength score, or your health, or some drat thing, where X is the number of hours your character feels like sitting in their basement". EDIT: This is made worse by the extended action disease, where a White Wolf game gives you mad props + respect because you've scored 200!!!! successes on a task, except you scored those 200 successes over the course of 150 accumulating dice rolls or something, during downtime or otherwise between scenes.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:12
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This might be a weird question so I'll put it here. A guy I know has a blog that's up for an ENnie at Gencon this year. He's currently trying a kickstarter on his blog to get better equipment and make the trip to Gencon. Am I allowed to post it in the kickstarter thread or would that not be okay since it isn't my kickstarter? And could I double dip and mention his blog in the Gencon thread for people going but who don't look at the ENnie list?
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Jun 11, 2014 05:17
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The kickstarter thread is absolutely full of kickstarters that people merely think are cool.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:19
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The Kickstarter thread isn't for self-promotion only, most of the Kickstarters that get posted there are just things someone thinks are cool and tradgames related. The worst that can happen is people look at it and go "eh, no thanks."
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Jun 11, 2014 05:20
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Supposedly, other supernaturals can either become or call on beings that are about equivalent in power to an archmage, at least powerful enough that archmages kind of collectively agree not to mess with vampires, werewolves, etc for fear of calling down the wrath of various beings of frightening power. Which is weird, because you just don't really see this in the other game lines. Is even the most powerful vampire going to be able to do jack poo poo to a dude out of whose rear end the sun can literally shine? (Extended rolls are drat stupid, but I don't know what to do about it except cap the number of rolls to their gnosis or something.) Reene fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 05:23
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Kai Tave posted:The Kickstarter thread isn't for self-promotion only, most of the Kickstarters that get posted there are just things someone thinks are cool and tradgames related. The worst that can happen is people look at it and go "eh, no thanks." No that is not the worst that can happen god if only
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Jun 11, 2014 05:23
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Reene posted:Supposedly, other supernaturals can either become or call on beings that are about equivalent in power to an archmage, at least powerful enough that archmages kind of collectively agree not to mess with vampires, werewolves, etc for fear of calling down the wrath of various beings of frightening power. In a recent vignette I got to watch a Primal Urge 8 super werewolf go SSJ and beat up/eat the spirit of an entire meteor shower. Formally, archmages are not that powerful because they get "plot device" magic more so than "defeat another character" magic. On the level of plot device magic, it's explicitly called out that, for instance, a Rank 7+ spirit has powers equivalent in scope to imperial practices. quote:(Extended rolls are drat stupid, but I don't know what to do about it except cap the number of rolls to their gnosis or something.) What do you do is, you catastrophically rewrite the entirety of the magic system to do away with them. Or you could just make it like, you only roll the dicepool once to cast a ritual, each hour you spend just buys down the dice penalty that adding e.g. duration and target factors would normally require. You'd then have to rebalance a bunch of ritual spells that normally assume gigantic Potency scores, though.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:29
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Winson_Paine posted:No that is not the worst that can happen I should have clarified that the worst moderator Winson "Underscore" Paine might do is shake his head disapprovingly in a fatherly fashion instead of banishing you to the land of wind and ghosts.
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Jun 11, 2014 05:34
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DocBubonic posted:Does any system that isn't derived from D&D have to worry about caster supremacy? It feels like every time this issue comes up its in regards to something D&D. Just from the systems I'm fairly familiar with: Savage Worlds This is all over the place. Generally speaking casters don't "take over" other characters roles the way they can in D&D. There's probably some spell somewhere that lets a spellcaster open a lock, read minds, etc but spellcasters have a pretty small list of tricks so it's generally prohibitive to go full "batman" in SW. SW is also extremely combat focused (especially in regards to magic) so this generally depends on the technology available to mundanes. In your standard fantasy, the spellcaster definitely has an edge in combat...Bolt unloads huge quantities of damage and at a high enough rank you don't have to worry much about running out of PP. However, when you get into modern or futuristic weaponry magic isn't actually very impressive anymore unless you have to worry about going around unarmed a lot. Of course there are a few individual spells that are grossly overpowered still (namely Boost/Lower Trait, Growth/Shrink, loving Quickness, and summon ally). PDQ Depends on the version since there's no single "spellcasting" system for the entire system. Questers of the Middle Realms and Jaws of the Six Serpents both have actual magic systems that are generally speaking pretty balanced against what a non-magical dude can do...but it's a high-trust system with player created traits. If the player is persuasive or the GM too lenient it's easy to accidentally end up with a caster supremacy situation...but the exact same thing could be said for any other trait. Call of Cthulhu Anyone who claims to be a "spellcaster" is probably kept bound and muzzled like hannibal lector and only wheeled out of his cage when the party needs an appropriate banishing spell cast or some new horrible book read. Shadowrun The ability to read or control minds in a game like shadowrun is already a huge advantage and it's one of the things that no non-spellcaster can duplicate. That's before getting into astral travel and summoning. FATE No real consensus on this since like PDQ there's no overarching magic system. In the Dresden Files access to thaumaturgy means you can win most situations if you've got time to prepare and evocation can be pretty drat powerful if you're willing to hit yourself with enough consequences. The main leash on spellcasters is social: the laws of magic are pretty drat restrictive (notably they make humans almost untouchable with magic) and most any wizard is under the white council's authority. In FATE Core the biggest problem is that magical skills often become the only skill a character needs to use and thus they're almost always using their highest skills while other characters are often forced into situations where they need to rely on their lesser talents. Unknown Armies Some of the adepts can be pretty powerful, especially with access to the right charging resources but their powers are very focused. The biggest problem is spellcasters is they're liable to get everyone else killed while trying to charge up or find a better power source.
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Jun 11, 2014 08:43
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In Unknown Armies magic(k) generally comes with several unpleasant social/mental side-effects that are difficult if not outright impossible to work around. Since it's not really a D&D-esque dungeon crawler, being a weird, hosed-up crazy guy that nobody wants to sit next to on the bus can actually be a serious drawback instead of just amusing color, and most of the time a gun will kill magic(k)y people dead just as easily as anyone else.
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Jun 11, 2014 09:19
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Kai Tave posted:In Unknown Armies magic(k) generally comes with several unpleasant social/mental side-effects that are difficult if not outright impossible to work around. Since it's not really a D&D-esque dungeon crawler, being a weird, hosed-up crazy guy that nobody wants to sit next to on the bus can actually be a serious drawback instead of just amusing color, and most of the time a gun will kill magic(k)y people dead just as easily as anyone else. "Not everybody that uses magic is bad, she had told him more than once over the past two years, but it's always bad for them."
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Jun 11, 2014 09:53
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I would exclude any system in which mages are the central characters tbh, like Unknown Armies. I mean, Ars Magica is caster-supremacy.pdf but really it's an intentional part of the system and everyone is expected to play mages anyway.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:21
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It should also be noted that in Ars, wizards take a backseat to anything related to the Divine in any significant fashion, and that the most effective way to kill a wizard is a bunch of really big guys in full armor with swords. Or a dragon, but the big guys with the armor are more common.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:33
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The thing about Ars Magica and Unknown Armies that makes them good in my mind is that as mentioned before, there is always a limiting factor for mages. As well as that, they are both high-lethality systems that discourage combat as the foremost method of resolving conflict.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:47
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grassy gnoll posted:Are you the dude that runs fuckyeahdnd, by the by, or is this just coincidence? Yeah, that's me. Anyway, thanks for the input. I really want to run this game, but I'm afraid my current group of murderhobos wouldn't take to it, but given that they're into heartwarming Japanese stuff like this outside of their RPG hobby should make it an easier sell. Kaja Rainbow posted:I don't have personal experience with this (the people I've mostly played with have had other tastes), but I've heard that such habitual murderhobo players can sometimes take surprisingly well to a change of pace. It seems to be something that varies from group to group and the people in them, but it's worth a try asking them.
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Jun 11, 2014 11:23
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*stands in front of a mirror in a darkened bathroom and chants "winston paine, winston paine, winston paine"*
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Jun 11, 2014 12:40
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Reene posted:Supposedly, other supernaturals can either become or call on beings that are about equivalent in power to an archmage, at least powerful enough that archmages kind of collectively agree not to mess with vampires, werewolves, etc for fear of calling down the wrath of various beings of frightening power. Extended actions are pretty dumb and the general rule is to cap it at your base dice pool in rolls but that does sweet fuckall. Oh darn, I can only roll 225 dice instead of infinite! The best rule I've seen is to cap extended pool successes at the dice pool. No 50 potency wards you made over the weekend anymore.
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Jun 11, 2014 12:43
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I kinda want to gently caress with Traveller a little, what version is the best?
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Jun 11, 2014 13:01
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Yawgmoth posted:Vampires don't have big bad vampires watching out for them, they have cthulhu-esque monstrosities lurking about that really like them existing as they are. This is WoD, not Rifts, Yawgmoth. Unrelated, I just met a man named EDWARD SCIENCE. In real life. That is a rad name. Esser-Z fucked around with this message at 13:09 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 13:07
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Tollymain posted:*stands in front of a mirror in a darkened bathroom and chants "winston paine, winston paine, winston paine"* 
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Jun 11, 2014 13:51
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I kinda want to gently caress with Traveller a little, what version is the best? I love Traveller but the one with the best rules system (New Era) is the worst setting.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:44
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I've been very curious about Traveller for some time now, but I understand that not only are there decades of books to read through, but it had a very active newsletter community that was a significant part of its essence.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:02
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Halloween Jack posted:I've been very curious about Traveller for some time now, but I understand that not only are there decades of books to read through, but it had a very active newsletter community that was a significant part of its essence.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:36
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dwarf74 posted:Marc Miller lives like a mile from me. I could harass him or something for you. Go yell at him for not editing his book at all. Traveller 5 sucks donkey balls.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:41
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Ask him how he feels about human civilization becoming a libertarian nightmare a few centuries ahead of schedule!
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Jun 11, 2014 16:41
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I kinda want to gently caress with Traveller a little, what version is the best? Halloween Jack posted:I've been very curious about Traveller for some time now, but I understand that not only are there decades of books to read through, but it had a very active newsletter community that was a significant part of its essence. GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars functions better as an introduction to Traveller than any of the actual Traveller books. It's mainly the setting, as IW is a sort of prequel set in a time when the Solomani (Humans from Earth) are just making contact with the Vilani (the other starfaring Humans). Players can be excused for not knowing anything about the Imperium because their characters probably don't, either. It's GURPS, so the rules are SOLID AS A ROCK but it's not terribly tied to the system and could be run in FATE or whatever. The metaplot in the later years covered by the book is sorta dumb, but your characters won't notice that unless you wanna play Starship Troopers.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:13
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SALT CURES HAM posted:I kinda want to gently caress with Traveller a little, what version is the best? Mongoose Traveller has a very solid corebook. Be careful with the supplements.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:19
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Tekopo posted:I would exclude any system in which mages are the central characters tbh, like Unknown Armies. I mean, Ars Magica is caster-supremacy.pdf but really it's an intentional part of the system and everyone is expected to play mages anyway. I'd say it's debatable whether adepts are central characters to Unknown Armies...some of the most influential and powerful people in the setting are magic, some of them are mundane. Once you start getting into Cosmic-level shenanigans then yeah, it's pretty clearly high-level adept and avatar territory, but at Street and Global levels you can get pretty far by being a badass normal dude who doesn't have to live with a bunch of cosmological restrictions on his actions.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:27
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Essentially, a core part of Unknown Armies's magic systems is paying a price for cosmological power that sensible people won't wan't to pay. I recall Greg, the author, talking about how what this major NPC can do is wreck your poo poo real good, but as for what said NPC can't do that you can? A lot of things, including stuff like loving and being loved. Or there's the Adept I created who pretty much was constantly in cosplay mode, including acting it. Pretty much destroyed her chance to live a reasonable life. In short, I'm not sure I'd call Unknown Armies a straight take on caster supremacy.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:45
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Kaja Rainbow posted:Essentially, a core part of Unknown Armies's magic systems is paying a price for cosmological power that sensible people won't wan't to pay. I recall Greg, the author, talking about how what this major NPC can do is wreck your poo poo real good, but as for what said NPC can't do that you can? A lot of things, including stuff like loving and being loved. Things The Freak cannot do: Look in a mirror.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:53
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Kai Tave posted:I'd say it's debatable whether adepts are central characters to Unknown Armies...some of the most influential and powerful people in the setting are magic, some of them are mundane. Once you start getting into Cosmic-level shenanigans then yeah, it's pretty clearly high-level adept and avatar territory, but at Street and Global levels you can get pretty far by being a badass normal dude who doesn't have to live with a bunch of cosmological restrictions on his actions.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:53
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Gau posted:GURPS Traveller: Interstellar Wars functions better as an introduction to Traveller than any of the actual Traveller books. It's mainly the setting, as IW is a sort of prequel set in a time when the Solomani (Humans from Earth) are just making contact with the Vilani (the other starfaring Humans). Players can be excused for not knowing anything about the Imperium because their characters probably don't, either. It's GURPS, so the rules are SOLID AS A ROCK but it's not terribly tied to the system and could be run in FATE or whatever. God help me, I was gonna post this. The GURPS IW book is a really good book in terms of laying out the setting. If you want to ignore the rules and uses something else that is great, but the IW book covers the poo poo out of the basics and gives a better version of the setting IMHO than later efforts.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:11
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Tekopo posted:But magick is still central to the game really, which is not something that I feel is central to something like D&D. Even knowing about the occult in UA fucks you up in unexpected ways and really if you wanted to do magic with very few drawbacks (although it is restricted as hell), you could even roll an Authentic Thaumaturge or just do ritual magic. You'll still have a considerable edge if you are a badass AND can use magic in some way. It's clear what the focus of UA is, which is why I think it excludes it from the 'caster supremacy' debate. Or just be psychic, who don't have to worry about charges period.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:17
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Mustache Ride posted:Go yell at him for not editing his book at all. Traveller 5 sucks donkey balls. IIRC, he runs some kind of music education foundation or something now. Really weird he got back into RPGs after so long. I still remember the GDW sign between the two (now both long-gone) gaming stores in Normal.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:22
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Winson_Paine posted:I believe that is the crux of the biscuit, that it is easy and totes painless to slap it on in the morning and then just go about your day. Casting it daily just doesn't seem like the right level of paranoia for a mage. Cast it for a month at a time just in case of a coma.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:32
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Mr. Maltose posted:Things The Freak cannot do: Look in a mirror. If you read Godwalker (the UA novella), The Freak is a main character, and there's a lot of things it can't do. Like connect to other human beings. The novel also gives you almost all The Freak's background in pieces, including what it did to get the two major charges and how it became godwalker.
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Jun 11, 2014 18:37
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