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Falukorv posted:You would think a huge ship like that would have some kind of redundancy to prevent such a thing. Vader lied, ewoks died
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Jun 10, 2014 13:49
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Falukorv posted:Anyway, sometimes i don't see the ending of RotJ as a happily ever after ending. The empire supposedly spans the galaxy and they probably have a bunch of divisions and other star destroyers, so i imagine a galaxy wide civil war is just waiting to happen now with a bunch of leaderless Imperial commanders now going to act as independent warlords with their own star destroyers. The military hierarchy was already so f'ed up with each commander acting on it's own whim (see: star destroyers crashing into each other trying to catch the falcon instead of any kind of concerted action). This exact scenario is the major plot framework for a number of god-awful (some sort of decent) Expanded Universe books. Falukorv posted:The Empire are kind of poo poo at strategy, they can't combine forces to svae their lives. Like on Hoth, in a wolrd with hovering vehicles and space ships they use walkers that are slow, can be tripped and can only shoot from a narrow angle right in front of them. Amazing how the attack pattern delta includes flying in front of that narrow space, done right they shouldn't have lost a single speeder to those walkers. You can blame the shield generator and good old fashioned arrogance for that! (Also TIE fighters are poo poo in atmosphere. Look at them.) Though your general thrust is correct, the Empire under Palpatine was dumb, dumb, dumb.
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Jun 10, 2014 14:01
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LeJackal posted:
Didn't think of that, you would imagine though that they would have developed some kind of fighter that can fight in an atmosphere. The X-wings do that, and since they must have developed those kind of vehicles to begin with before even reaching space technology, designing a planet fighter must be pretty basic knowledge in that universe. A spacefaring military dictatorship must be doing some major repression on a livable planet's surface after all. They have speeder bikes and walkers, so they should have some kind of terrestrial air force too. But by now i'm overthinking it, Star Wars is a space opera, ofc they can't go into the specifics of military doctrine and such. Falukorv has a new favorite as of 14:27 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 14:24
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Falukorv posted:But by now i'm overthinking it, Star Wars is a space opera, ofc they can't go into the specifics of military doctrine and such. I thought the idea of a fear based military was pretty cool, with the at-at being a completely pointless but terrifying weapon. if they just put a few side guns on the thing and a couple underneath it would still be silly but it would make sense in a "holy poo poo that stomping noise is a loving building on legs oh god" type of way.
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Jun 10, 2014 15:28
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WoodrowSkillson posted:I thought the idea of a fear based military was pretty cool, with the at-at being a completely pointless but terrifying weapon. if they just put a few side guns on the thing and a couple underneath it would still be silly but it would make sense in a "holy poo poo that stomping noise is a loving building on legs oh god" type of way. Yeah i agree, and it also shows how it can all go to poo poo if people get desperate enough to try to overcome that fear and start to poke holes at the paper tiger.
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Jun 10, 2014 15:37
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The Emperor never gave a poo poo. That's why his fighters are stupidly designed sandwiched balls and his troops are armored up like toy packaging that just barely stop the arrows from Ewoks. He's a Sith Lord, runs the galaxy, and thinks everyone in it is his plaything to do as he pleases. He tried rebuilding the Death Star and instead of learning the lesson of protecting even those small meter wide ports that can fit torpedoes that run straight to the power core, he wanted it built bigger so entire ships could fly through to the power core and bask in the glory of watching the fireball begin. He's really not about using resources wisely. If you're really concerned about what his military doctrine is, it's you're expendable. You don't need more detail than that. Also creepy geezer smile and cackle.
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Jun 10, 2014 15:43
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Lead Psychiatry posted:The Emperor never gave a poo poo. That's why his fighters are stupidly designed sandwiched balls and his troops are armored up like toy packaging that just barely stop the arrows from Ewoks. He's a Sith Lord, runs the galaxy, and thinks everyone in it is his plaything to do as he pleases. He tried rebuilding the Death Star and instead of learning the lesson of protecting even those small meter wide ports that can fit torpedoes that run straight to the power core, he wanted it built bigger so entire ships could fly through to the power core and bask in the glory of watching the fireball begin. He's really not about using resources wisely. If I recall correctly the logic behind the TIE fighters not having any shields was "You'll either die and prove you weren't worth the money to train you or be a drat good pilot and not need shields" The Empire is not the best people to work for.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:12
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Lead Psychiatry posted:The Emperor never gave a poo poo. That's why his fighters are stupidly designed sandwiched balls and his troops are armored up like toy packaging that just barely stop the arrows from Ewoks. He's a Sith Lord, runs the galaxy, and thinks everyone in it is his plaything to do as he pleases. He tried rebuilding the Death Star and instead of learning the lesson of protecting even those small meter wide ports that can fit torpedoes that run straight to the power core, he wanted it built bigger so entire ships could fly through to the power core and bask in the glory of watching the fireball begin. He's really not about using resources wisely. Kind of amazing that he lasted for so long. Except for Vader the only thing that seems to keep his men loyal is naked authority, fear, and perks that come with being in top command. There's doesn't seem to be much ideological cause in it for the foot soldier or even for the generals. Conditions seem rife for a military coup, as those perks seem to diminish when they are sent on military fiascoes and top commanders being executed for arbitrary reasons. A cabal of officers could easily find enough motivation to rally some troops/ships whatever and kill the force-rear end in a top hat and his lapdog who puts the blame of their martial non-prowess on them and can just on a wim decide to kill them for it. From an officers POV, alot of their hardship could be eliminated by a coup. In A New Hope you even have an officer being openly resentful of Vaders "force mythology". I feel like those resentments could easily be shared and fester. I mean, if they perceive themselves at some point as being disposable pawns and scapegoats, that would be a coup potential. Top man Needa or what ever the admirals name was saw for himself on what shaky ground he stood on while serving the emperor, and there we have a top-ranking admiral who essentilly holds no actual loyalty for the emperor, just fear. Maybe the Rebels should have tried harder to flip some Imperials with obvious doubts. This is essentially what got several Roman Emperors assassinated. One of the best soldier emperors, Aurelian, who managed to unite the fracturing empire during the Third century crisis, got assassinated by some corrupt governor because of a false rumor that he was going to be killed by the emperor for his transgressions. Or for that matter, Alexander Severus who was seen as a weak sissy boy who was responsible for their percieved defeats was promptly murdered by a general. Palpatine even has a praetorian guard by that analogy. I can easily see Imperial military men starting to see Vader and The Emperor as the source of their failures and also job/life insecurity (especially with the to them alien force mythologizing). The whole "capture the chosen Skywalker alive at all costs" must seem like a wild goose chase from some of the more conventional military types, i.e the guy mocking Vader at the first Death Star. With that kind of resentment the death star officer showed, it's only a step away from him thinking: "gently caress this force assholes who treat us like poo poo commanding us on wild goose chases and fiascoes, who then blames and kill us for it, and causing casualties in the aim of getting another force dude alive to become our new vice-boss. Let's kill the emperor and the rebel forcewielding leader skywalker which we can do better on our own, and then crush the rebellion OUR WAY". Falukorv has a new favorite as of 16:39 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 16:30
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Falukorv posted:Kind of amazing that he lasted for so long. Except for Vader the only thing that seems to keep his men loyal is naked authority, fear, and perks that come with being in top command. There's doesn't seem to be much ideological cause in it for the foot soldier or even for the generals. Conditions seem rife for a military coup, as those perks seem to diminish when they are sent on military fiascoes and top commanders being executed for arbitrary reasons. A cabal of officers could easily find enough motivation to rally some troops/ships whatever and kill the force-rear end in a top hat and his lapdog who puts the blame of their martial non-prowess on them and can just on a wim decide to kill them for it. From an officers POV, alot of their hardship could be eliminated by a coup. In A New Hope you even have an officer being openly resentful of Vaders "force mythology". I feel like those resentments could easily be shared and fester. And then a space wizard chokes you from light years away.
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Jun 10, 2014 16:47
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Incorrectly regarded as goofs Star Wars isn't a window into an internally consistent alternate reality. Fans regarded this as a mistake for nearly three decades, until the director's commentary on the Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones DVD revealed that this is a characteristic of all fiction, not just the Star Wars films and Star Wars Expanded Universe Officially Licensed Media.
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Jun 10, 2014 18:39
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Len posted:If I recall correctly the logic behind the TIE fighters not having any shields was "You'll either die and prove you weren't worth the money to train you or be a drat good pilot and not need shields" From my youth playing X-Wing vs TIE Fighter, I concur. If you were good enough to get an Interceptor, you were a strong independent pilot who don't need no shields. Or you just grabbed an Advanced Fighter and got both. In the defense of the TIE Fighters, they are really bloody fast and hard to actually hit. The rebel ships were floating damage sponges that couldn't turn around worth poo poo. That... and they couldn't afford giving expensive ships... unlike the rebels 
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Jun 10, 2014 18:42
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Lead Psychiatry posted:The Emperor never gave a poo poo. That's why his fighters are stupidly designed sandwiched balls and his troops are armored up like toy packaging that just barely stop the arrows from Ewoks. He's a Sith Lord, runs the galaxy, and thinks everyone in it is his plaything to do as he pleases. He tried rebuilding the Death Star and instead of learning the lesson of protecting even those small meter wide ports that can fit torpedoes that run straight to the power core, he wanted it built bigger so entire ships could fly through to the power core and bask in the glory of watching the fireball begin. He's really not about using resources wisely. You go to star war with the army you have, not with the army you might want or wish.
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Jun 10, 2014 20:21
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Falukorv posted:Didn't think of that, you would imagine though that they would have developed some kind of fighter that can fight in an atmosphere. The X-wings do that, and since they must have developed those kind of vehicles to begin with before even reaching space technology, designing a planet fighter must be pretty basic knowledge in that universe. A spacefaring military dictatorship must be doing some major repression on a livable planet's surface after all. I don't have any experience with expended universe novels or anything, but if I remember correctly Rogue Squadron 2 (which was awesome) did address this. The Empire does send TIE fighters, but they attack the rebel base from the opposite direction the moment the shields are down and only arrive just in time to aim for the evacuating transports. By the time they arrive, they are all ingloriously shot down by a handful of X-Wings because this is still Star Wars we're talking about.
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Jun 10, 2014 23:53
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In one of the first EU book series, the first thing the Evil Guy Trying to Restore the Empire does is decide who his best personnel are and clone the poo poo out of them for future battles. He also gives as many pilots as he can the better TIE fighters with shields installed. He proceeds to beat the poo poo out of the new rebel government for three books until he just up and gets stabbed in the back by a bodyguard for doing some evil poo poo to his planet. The whole thing basically answers Falukorv's posts about "What if" the Empire had an actual trained military with critically-thinking leaders. The Rebellion would have been crushed in short order, or may have never needed to exist at all. But no, the Emperor took power overnight, threw it everything together and assumed fear and his force poo poo would do the rest and nothing bad could ever happen ever. It's his ultimate arrogance that if he just tries to scare everyone a little harder, they'd all just stop resisting. Most of the EU stuff is terrible but some of it really scratched my itch to know what happens "after" the movies when I was a kid and just wanted more, more, more of Star Wars, knowing there'd never be more movies. Now I've got thirty years of totally-retconned star wars trivia in my brain and I'm going to get what I wanted when I was 5. (I was SO SURE the new prequels were going to be about EU stuff, I told other kids I knew what the movies were going to be about in the weeks before The Phantom Menace came out) The best part of the EU stuff to me was the Essential Guide to Ships/Weapons and Technology where they had kickin' rad blueprint-style illustrations and some information for a whole ton of poo poo. It was  to the extreme, but if you wanted to know the specifics of the technology, it's probably all online now.
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Jun 11, 2014 03:46
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syscall girl posted:You go to star war with the army you have, not with the army you might want or wish. Best thing about this is there really are a bunch of Rumsfeld pictures out there that would easily work with a Palpatine mashup. If only I knew Photoshop.
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Jun 11, 2014 04:24
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Caedus posted:In one of the first EU book series, the first thing the Evil Guy Trying to Restore the Empire does is decide who his best personnel are and clone the poo poo out of them for future battles. He also gives as many pilots as he can the better TIE fighters with shields installed. That guy was also such an amazing military mind he was (at least at the time IIRC) the only alien in the entire Galactic Empire that wasn't a sith lord living in the shadows.
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Jun 11, 2014 04:46
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muscles like this? posted:
Do you not have this reaction in other movies where characters are cavalier about shooting people and the consequence is, you know, dying?
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Jun 11, 2014 08:18
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Caedus posted:In one of the first EU book series, the first thing the Evil Guy Trying to Restore the Empire does is decide who his best personnel are and clone the poo poo out of them for future battles. He also gives as many pilots as he can the better TIE fighters with shields installed.  !One of my favourite little "inner workings of the empire" story was in a short story collection detailing the life and times of every tiny character you saw in the background of a scene in the first movie for 0.2 seconds (because of course that exists). It's about THE STORMTROOPER who uh has a line. I think it was the one in the desert going "hey we found the escape capsule but it's empty?!?!?!". Well, his story starts on the imperial training facility planet which is a strange planet because it has ALL terrains (and not just desert, jungle, lava from polar cap to polar cap, go figure!). So they can train. In all terrains. With their All-Terrain Attack Transporters! (the walkers from the second movie for the less-nerds). He runs a session on the "wheel" of such a thing, walks happily over mountains etc., then gets attacked by a bunch of small fighters. They fly between his legs! He can't do poo poo! So he's like wait a minute, flips a few switches, the walkers bends its knees and the fighters can no longer go between the legs. He wins. Turns out it was a simulation. He's like "hey commanding officer Veers, wasn't that like totally awesome of me to recognize and battle that incredibly glaring flaw our giant walkers have?!" Veers is like "yeah. Flaw. In our glorious empire walkers. Mhm." And this is why our random stormtrooper ends up doing menial poo poo in the armpit of the galaxy, Tattooine. See, it's funny, because it's actually pretty close to real life, I'd imagine. Addendum: Veers is named because he's the dude you see for a second in the cockpit of a walker in the movie - the one Luke climbs up to and grenades. REFERENCES.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:11
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The books he is talking about are the first 3 timothy zahn wrote back in the 90s, which pretty much started the whole insane expanded universe poo poo. The books did not win a Pulitzer but are pretty good sci fi books if you want something mindless to read in a hammock or whatever, and are free of most of the silliness in other star wars stuff. I remember really liking them as a kid and recently picked one of them back up and it was still decent.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:17
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Heres Hank posted:Do you not have this reaction in other movies where characters are cavalier about shooting people and the consequence is, you know, dying? Most other movies the main characters aren't armed with the knowledge that they are literally erasing the person from existence. Also I do have a problem with the beginning of MiB3 where J and K are just gunning down aliens left and right and they're exploding into goo.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:39
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muscles like this? posted:Most other movies the main characters aren't armed with the knowledge that they are literally erasing the person from existence. Every character that has ever shot someone with the intent to kill has that knowledge, what the gently caress are you talking about?
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Jun 11, 2014 15:45
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Eh, there's a difference between "making not alive anymore" and "wiping out from all existence in the universe". Mainly cause "making not alive anymore" means you might have an afterlife. The other means you literally no longer exist in any way, form, or shape. Sort of a more horrible fate.
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Jun 11, 2014 15:48
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:Eh, there's a difference between "making not alive anymore" and "wiping out from all existence in the universe". They are one and the same man
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Jun 11, 2014 16:20
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The dead don't know the difference.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:25
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The guys in RIPD know for a fact that there is an afterlife and seem perfectly okay erasing the bad guys from existence anyway, is the point he's making. I don't know how this is evading y'all. In the reality RIPD is set in, there is explicitly an afterlife, and the main characters are aware of this, and are destroying the enemies' souls anyway, which is a different situation than other movies/real life, where the existence of an afterlife is not explicitly confirmed and known to the heroes.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:54
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Well, maybe there's an After-After life, hmm? And the RIPIPD keeps it a secret from our heroes?
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Jun 11, 2014 17:11
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Simply Simon posted:Hey buddy, you sound like my childhood I remember that book, I really liked all that stuff. I don't know how canon it was, as it showed stuff like how Boba Fett escaped from the Sarlaac pit, but you get to see stories from points of view of, for example, the dancer that gets tossed into the Rancor pit in Jabba's palace, another dancer (I think this one is fat) who escapes after he's killed, some Jawa who is shot while trying to avenge his friend, etc. I liked those side stories.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:31
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The thing you have to remember is that TIE fighters are the AK47 of the Star Wars world. Designed to be cheap, rugged, mass produced and can be found drat near anywhere in the entire galaxy. Also it makes our heroes look better with their concern for human life and expensive hand built x-wings. Notice how all the x-wing pilots have names while the empire pilots are tagged as Black-30094848 or some similar rubbish. The empire treats it's pilots as disposable I mean if you lose a couple of hundred tie fighters there's plenty more where they came from.
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Jun 11, 2014 17:43
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Ferrosol posted:The thing you have to remember is that TIE fighters are the AK47 of the Star Wars world. Designed to be cheap, rugged, mass produced and can be found drat near anywhere in the entire galaxy. Also it makes our heroes look better with their concern for human life and expensive hand built x-wings. Notice how all the x-wing pilots have names while the empire pilots are tagged as Black-30094848 or some similar rubbish. The empire treats it's pilots as disposable I mean if you lose a couple of hundred tie fighters there's plenty more where they came from. So you're saying the empire are the russians and the rebels are the nazis?
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Jun 11, 2014 18:34
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Hulebr00670065006e posted:So you're saying the empire are the russians and the rebels are the nazis? If you want to use Sherman tanks in the analogy, then the US is the Empire and the Nazis are the Rebellion. Fuckin' deep man.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:06
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In episode 4, the Millennium Falcon is barely able to keep ahead of star destroyers, and tie fighters swarm all over it. In 5 an 6, it flies circles around star destroyers, and dogfights with tie fighters. I can understand George Lucas doing this (he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't let internal consistency get in the way of the movie he wants to make), but I have never heard it even mentioned by the Star Wars fans who can explain in detail why making the Kessel run in 12 parsecs is an indication of its speed.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:37
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ducttape posted:In episode 4, the Millennium Falcon is barely able to keep ahead of star destroyers, and tie fighters swarm all over it. In 5 an 6, it flies circles around star destroyers, and dogfights with tie fighters. I can understand George Lucas doing this (he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't let internal consistency get in the way of the movie he wants to make), but I have never heard it even mentioned by the Star Wars fans who can explain in detail why making the Kessel run in 12 parsecs is an indication of its speed. Han upgraded the engines? Lucasarts upgraded their SFX techniques/got a bigger budget allowing them to show the Falcon flipping around instead of staying stationary and firing its turrets?
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Jun 11, 2014 19:44
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ducttape posted:In episode 4, the Millennium Falcon is barely able to keep ahead of star destroyers, and tie fighters swarm all over it. In 5 an 6, it flies circles around star destroyers, and dogfights with tie fighters. I can understand George Lucas doing this (he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't let internal consistency get in the way of the movie he wants to make), but I have never heard it even mentioned by the Star Wars fans who can explain in detail why making the Kessel run in 12 parsecs is an indication of its speed. I think it's more an indication of its maneuverability and Han Solo's ability to pilot it. Something about black holes.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:44
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ducttape posted:In episode 4, the Millennium Falcon is barely able to keep ahead of star destroyers, and tie fighters swarm all over it. In 5 an 6, it flies circles around star destroyers, and dogfights with tie fighters. I can understand George Lucas doing this (he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't let internal consistency get in the way of the movie he wants to make), but I have never heard it even mentioned by the Star Wars fans who can explain in detail why making the Kessel run in 12 parsecs is an indication of its speed. Well see. The Kessel run takes ships near a bunch of black holes. And the people who do it in less parsecs get more street cred. I guess the Falcon could outrun the pull from a black hole or something.
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Jun 11, 2014 19:45
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ducttape posted:In episode 4, the Millennium Falcon is barely able to keep ahead of star destroyers, and tie fighters swarm all over it. In 5 an 6, it flies circles around star destroyers, and dogfights with tie fighters. I can understand George Lucas doing this (he seems like the kind of guy who doesn't let internal consistency get in the way of the movie he wants to make), but I have never heard it even mentioned by the Star Wars fans who can explain in detail why making the Kessel run in 12 parsecs is an indication of its speed.  .
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Jun 11, 2014 19:48
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I think the only dudes in the movies who DIDN'T end up in a short story were the TK 421 dude who got his armor yoinked when they inspected the falcon, and the ice cream dude on Bespin.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:15
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Stupid_Sexy_Flander posted:I think the only dudes in the movies who DIDN'T end up in a short story were the TK 421 dude who got his armor yoinked when they inspected the falcon, and the ice cream dude on Bespin. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Willrow_Hood
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Jun 11, 2014 20:18
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Len posted:Well see. The Kessel run takes ships near a bunch of black holes. And the people who do it in less parsecs get more street cred. I guess the Falcon could outrun the pull from a black hole or something. This sad thing is, that this is literally canon, when a much better explanation is 'Han was bullshitting in an attempt to wangle a higher fee out of the gullible old man'. You can see Obi-Wan smirking and not buying it in that very scene.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:18
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I loving hate the Star Wars fandom. The wiki just makes me sad.
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Jun 11, 2014 20:20
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CJacobs posted:I loving hate the Star Wars fandom. The wiki just makes me sad. There's an action figure of Ice Cream Man.
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