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Agent355 posted:Kroxigor would always get block because lizards don't need more strength. Moving from 5 to 6 strength doesn't actually give 3dbs unassisted anyway so block is far and away better for punching. e: Shadowing is also a very legit pick due to his prehensile tail and relatively good movement. jBrereton fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Jun 10, 2014 |
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Jun 10, 2014 01:07
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Just watched the 2nd half - and god drat I was getting angry just watching that, and I'm usually pretty zen at Blood Bowl. Wight with MB is a good thing though, time to punch some dudes a little bit harder. All we need is a wolf to level and roll dubs and we're golden.
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Jun 10, 2014 03:03
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Agent355 posted:Thats why it really comes down to a choice based on what player you're talking about. The +ST also means that more players have to pile on in order to get a 2DB against him, while Block means that each enemy block die moves from a 3/6 chance of potentially knocking the big guy down to a 2/6 chance. There isn't a wrong decision, just sometimes it's much less optimal to take the +ST instead of block. Veloxyll posted:Why bother buying fresh Linemen? Loners are basically as good, and then you don't care when they get punched and die. Of all the changes made in LRB5, I think the addition of journeymen is by far my least favorite in retrospect. While it seemed like a really good change in the short term - no more risking a team being unplayable because multiple players got hit with serious injuries or killed - in the long term it definitely has fostered an environment where people simply don't buy spare players anymore. I mean, why would you? Unless you're goblins, spare players are just wasted TV that sits on the sidelines most games and inflate your TV. If you're a chaos team and choose to have a couple spare beastmen, you're going to be at a serious disadvantage versus a team that runs with the minimum 11 players and has an extra 6 skills at the same overall TV. God forbid you take the time to get an extra skill or two on your extra linemen at higher TV, as well - it's a huge waste of TV. Why not just use linemen? They're free and loner doesn't really matter for guys who are just gonna get punched anyway. But spare players were actually a lot more relevant in LRB4 and earlier, what with aging rolls and the lack of journeymen - they were your hedge against a death spiral. Buying a couple of linemen and maybe getting a skill or two on them was often the difference between a team having a temporary slump after a bad game and a team that became literally unplayable. Don't get me wrong, there were some awful parts of LRB4 (for example, the aging system) and the LRB5 inducements system is far superior to the old handicap system. Still, I miss out on some of the things that gave the old system character (like traits - some skills could only be taken on doubles by people who had the relevant skill access) and I definitely prefer the old style secret weapons. Maybe I'm just getting to be a crotchety old guy who hates change.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:09
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Olesh posted:Journeymen make me mad. Spare players do at least provide some buffer against a death spiral, it's just for the in match snowball effect of playing men down. That said, this requires you to be able to end a drive to leverage.
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Jun 10, 2014 05:23
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Olesh posted:The +ST also means that more players have to pile on in order to get a 2DB against him, while Block means that each enemy block die moves from a 3/6 chance of potentially knocking the big guy down to a 2/6 chance. There isn't a wrong decision, just sometimes it's much less optimal to take the +ST instead of block. I usually run 1 spare ideally on any team. But when it's a choice between buying a darkelf lino, or saving up for a witch (or Blitzer!), I'm gonna save up every time.
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Jun 10, 2014 06:23
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I got the game from a Steam sale a while back because of another LP, but this one has gotten me to install it and make a team. Am I doing it right?
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Jun 11, 2014 07:54
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Glidergun posted:I got the game from a Steam sale a while back because of another LP, but this one has gotten me to install it and make a team. Is that Gödel I see? Neat. Still, expect the team to die terribly because you come up against a 1200+ TV bashy team that pummels you into the ground because you have no skills. It takes plenty of luck to make Chaos work in the early game.
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Jun 11, 2014 07:59
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Chaos teams are very satisfactory to play. They have good armour and you start with all your positionals, so while it's hard to win your first games it's easy to keep the team together and buy extra rerolls to help. They improve almost every match. I played an ork vs ork game last night. It was a scoreless clusterfuck on the first half, with 3 players on both sides KOed or injuried. Second half I ended up with 2 less players on the field due to bad recovery rolls, and clicked "accept" like an idiot before placing my players properly. This basically ended with th other guy caging on my half of the field and pinning my team against the sidelines. On turn 12 he was idling next to my endzone with his ballcarrier and I couldn't reach him, so I started fouling his players. That forced him to score quickly, especially after killing a Black Orc  Last turn I had a blitzer on his endzone and managed a 4+ pass (I coldn't run the ball anymore), but the stupid thrower fumbled the pass. What I mean to say is that losing a match doesn't matter as long as you step on the neck of a valued player.
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Jun 11, 2014 08:46
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Chaos teams are also not suggested for the first team, since they lack skills and positionals and they suck at the beginning. They can get good but that's at about 1700-1800 TV mark, provided you've made good skill choices. I guess you can also go on the funhaver route where you pick only fun skills and never win a game.
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Jun 11, 2014 10:30
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Fat Samurai posted:What I mean to say is that losing a match doesn't matter as long as you step on the neck of a valued player. Played my near-rookie prelfs vs some gobbos yesterday. Second turn or so, skilled lino dies on goblin block. Skilled linos are the meat of that team, so apo saved him. Soon after, Dodge blitzer and another rookie lino die to overdose of goblin boot. Gobbos failed 1 dodge and trolls 2 really stupids over entire game. 170k of gold out of pocket. Elfs won 2-1 because elfs. Edit: (These are the same prelfs who, in their first game, caused 7 cas versus a necro team and received none.) Duuk fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 13:10
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Is there some way to choose timer options for matchmaking? My first game with QED was on a 40 second turn timer, which was usually not even enough time for all the actions to happen. 0-0 draw, hooray. Also, I got dicefucked on injury rolls; two Chaos Warriors got Badly Hurted out on their own dubskulls in the first half and a Beastman was killed right at the tail end of the game. RIP Aurochimedes, you never got to prove that the volume of a ball is 2/3 that of the skull you shove it through. Fortunately I earned enough cash to replace him so I figure I'll just treat it as starting a new team with 6 free SPP.
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Jun 11, 2014 14:32
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Glidergun posted:Is there some way to choose timer options for matchmaking? My first game with QED was on a 40 second turn timer, which was usually not even enough time for all the actions to happen. 0-0 draw, hooray. http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3630675&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=22#post430686286 And yeah, hooray for getting hosed with injury rolls. Nothing like playing Elves against Lizardmen and starting the second half with six men versus their eleven. That's Blood Bowl for ya, it seems. At least you got to the point where you could get your team back to the start with some SPP, not like my teams that usually end up somewhere with one guy dead, two injured with stat drops and another one out for the next game while only winning about 40K and the MVP went to the dead guy.
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Jun 11, 2014 14:37
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TheMcD posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3630675&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=22#post430686286 Eh, Lizards are good at punching and elves are not good at getting punched, so you being down five men is just their game plan working well. It sucks for you on the receiving end, though.
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Jun 11, 2014 14:39
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TheMcD posted:http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3630675&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=22#post430686286 Speaking as a long time player and appreciator of various elf teams... The only good elf is a dead elf. Edit: Steelpudding posted:Dwarf player spotted! Search me. You won't find any dwarves here. https://fumbbl.com/~Archpeasant (I did have some buff misguided halflings in B but that was years ago) I was mostly referring to the fact that when your elf is alive, it will trip and fumble and get KO'd at every fricken opportunity and all you can think of is "I paid 100k for you, rear end in a top hat". And when it's dead, you will warmly think back to the one time it didn't snake. Or when the elf is your opponent's... Well, same but in reverse. Duuk fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 14:44
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Duuk posted:The only good elf is a dead elf. Dwarf player spotted! 
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Jun 11, 2014 16:11
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Duuk posted:The only good elf is a dead elf. Although my biggest blowout was a mid-tier Chaos team vs. Goblins. Killed one troll in the first hit of the game, then injured the second troll in the second hit of the game. By the end of the second half he was down to three players on the pitch.
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Jun 11, 2014 16:22
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Steelpudding posted:Chaos teams are also not suggested for the first team, since they lack skills and positionals and they suck at the beginning. They can get good but that's at about 1700-1800 TV mark, provided you've made good skill choices. Main thing on Chaos is just make sure everyone has at least one skill by the time you're at 1400ish, or any recovery games you have are going to be a completely nightmare - sometimes Nurgle, Norse, Zons (remarkably hard-hitting at 1300ish TV), Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, or especially Lizards are going to outbash you unless everyone on your team has Guard and ClawPOMB because you're an even worse than Dwarves High TV Hitler. Glidergun posted:Is there some way to choose timer options for matchmaking? On the matchmaking team selection but, there are minimum and maximum time settings. Change it to 2/4 minutes or just four I guess.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:53
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jBrereton posted:Disagree, Chaos is always a good team you can win with. I cherry pick fresh chaos teams on my stunty min max teams. It's a pretty good indication they aren't that great starting fresh.
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Jun 11, 2014 21:59
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Iretep posted:I cherry pick fresh chaos teams on my stunty min max teams. It's a pretty good indication they aren't that great starting fresh. Chaos don't usually get beaten up even in the first games, and their players other than a Mino are all Agi 3 and reasonable movement.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:18
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jBrereton posted:Against that one specific type of team, maybe, and I'm sure that's influenced by many Chaos players getting enraged that they aren't injuring AV7>= guys all the time just yet, rather than planning on pushes. Yeah, cherrypicking chaos teams at low TV only works for stunties, zons, dorfs, elfs, orcs, lizards, skaven, undead, necro, human, slann, and maybe nurgle. Outside of this minor achilles' heel rookie chaos teams can hold their own against anything. The sole perk of playing 1000tv chaos is that having a ST4/AG3 player is pretty nice. Not as nice as having actual skills, though.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:35
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jBrereton posted:Against that one specific type of team, maybe, and I'm sure that's influenced by many Chaos players getting enraged that they aren't injuring AV7>= guys all the time just yet, rather than planning on pushes. Their problem isn't that the players are bad it's that they have 0 block. No block means it's hard to blitz and there's no safe punches, if rookie chaos have average or, god forbid, bad dice then they are absolutely hosed. Same reason rookie lizards are garbage. Look at any of the goonbowls, the Lizards usually lose their early games then come back later in the season.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:49
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Yeah, the lack of skills is their main fault. They are also slightly bloated too due to having to take a lot of 60k linos. Horns on over half your team isn't exactly TV efficient.
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Jun 11, 2014 22:53
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It's time for another..... Blood Bowl 101 Time to start talkin' some strategy Lesson 4: The Cage Caging is, very simply, surrounding your ballcarrier with players so that your opponent cannot possibly hit them. There is no one configuration of players that is called "The Cage" This is a cage  This is a (loose) cage  This is a (Cyanide AI, hyperbunker) cage  This is a (sideline) cage  The cage takes many forms, but in every instance there's no way for the opponent to walk past your line of defense and punch your ballcarrier. Well, sure, an opponent could do a dodge and try to get in, but then you're trying to dodge into 3 tackle zones, and for the average player (AG3) that's a 6+ D6 roll. And, even if you get into the cage, you're now standing next to two opponents trying to throw a block. So, if you can't cancel out their negative assists on the block (or if those players have Guard), odds are you'll be throwing a -2db. This is not a cage.  Why?  Two opponents to cancel out assists and there's a free blitz on your ballcarrier with no negative assists (assuming neither of the top or right blue players have Guard). The advantages of caging should be obvious. You protect your ballcarrier and force your opponent to engage with you which can put you in a good position to bop them on the face. If you watched the Orc match, the disadvantages should also be fairly obvious. In fact, rarely will your cage maintain its integrity all the way to the end zone. Often you may cage up for a couple turns, moving forward until you can break through the defense. By then, you may have lost a cage corner to an errant blitz or been forced to use another player somewhere else on the board. However, the point of the cage is simply "Protect Your Ballcarrier". If you know your ballcarrier is safe, there's probably no reason to cage up. While caging is not a tactic exclusively reserved for bashy, strength-oriented teams, it is typically best employed by them. Standing 5 elfs in a cube like that means they're easier to surround and contain. And, being elves, they are much easier to punch and murder. Caging is also an exclusively offensive strategy. Why would you cage on defense? Who are you protecting? I did a semi-cage during the goblin match to protect my Wolf from getting fouled, but other than one of those rare situations it should be obvious that a defense doesn't need to do caging. Well, unless the person in the middle of the cage is an opposing player who's about to enter a world of overkill pain. For Orks, Dwarves, and other teams (Necro to a lesser extent), caging is an invaluable tool for success. Orcs don't particularly mind being surrounded by opponents, because that means the opponent is that much closer and that much easier to clobber. And, they make for really resilient cage corners. Sure, they may be slow and unable to dodge away from a player who has them marked, but you only really need a couple players to pull off a good cage. And, in fact, the Orcs being so close to each other and not spread out means they can better assist each other on blocks and make better uses of core skills like Guard to maximize their value. So, now that you understand the cage, how do you stop it? There's a couple ways, and depending on what team you're playing, some may be better than others. The most obvious one is to attack the corners. When you blitz a standard cage corner (5 players forming an X), successfully knocking down the cage corner means you can stand some of your players next to the ballcarrier, forcing your opponent to try and spring him free. Of course, a team like elfs doesn't really care too much, because they are very good at dodging away and laughing in your face. However, knocking down a cage corner is a very good way to pressure the ballcarrier, which may be more useful than the second basic strategy, the Screen. Screening is going to be the topic of one of these megaposts (probably the next one) but the core concept is that you use your own tackle zones to prevent players from easily walking right past you. You're basically trying to slow down your opponent and force him to use his own players (possibly even cage corners) to break through your defense. If you're screening, you're either trying to force your opponent to come after you and possibly show an opening, or simply slow them down and run out the clock. If none of your own players are standing next to your opponent, your opponent can't throw blocks at them (besides the one blitz). Obvious, yeah? Well, if you can wall off your opponent, often the one blitz won't be enough to clear a path. Without tooting my horn too much, I feel like the Orc game was a good example of simple cage defense. Nothing fancy, just good planning of zombie placement and good decision making, especially when choosing how and where to engage with your opponent. Be flexible. For example, my Necro team may have built a cage which consisted of the 2 Flesh Golems facing the opponent, and two zombies in the back. An opponent may come to blitz one of my Flesh Golems to try and break the cage. Say he simply gets, pushed, Stands Firm, and now there's some opponents standing next to him. Do I let the cage lose a man and keep going? Do I shift the cage laterally and set up in a way that the loss of a cage corner is negligible? Do I move forward and substitute a player for the Flolem who was left behind? Or do I set up on the sideline and set up a second level of defense to keep opponents from even blitzing my cage itself? There's plenty of options, and often the nature of the board and where your players are at the time will dictate what you do next. Whatever you do, though, don't sacrifice board position for an unnecessarily reinforced cage. I point out a Cyanide AI Hyperbunker cage above. If you play against the Cyanide AI, they tend to do stuff like this, though often not this extreme. They may put a 5th or 6th player into the empty squares around the ballcarrier. Is this the best use of those players? Maybe sometimes, but often those players are better suited clearing a path downfield or going after your opponent. If 6,7,8 of your players are confined in a 3x3 square, your opponent has most of the board to himself, and he can easily position to defend against your useless death march. Also, it makes the match boring because your slow death march is very easily held off by a human opponent, and you spend the whole half trying to move your lovely pile of worthlessness down the field one square (or maybe 0 squares) at a time. Another important thing to note is that you should pay attention to where your cage corners are. This seems obvious, but when you're in the middle of a match you may only be focused on the ballcarrier and his position, and end up positioning your cage corners without thinking. Go look up at that sideline cage. Sideline caging can be very useful because you use the sideline to prevent the side of your character, meaning you only need two players to act as corners. In some situations, sideline caging is very effective and a huge pain in the rear end to stop. However, I have shown pretty effectively that standing an unprotected player (either of the cage corners) two squares from the sideline is a dangerous choice when you have a 9 Movement, Frenzy werewolf. Also, the positioning of your ballcarrier and cage corners may end up that one of your corners is standing next to an upright opponent. Don't do this, unless you really really have to. If one of your corners is standing next to a player, that next turn that player can throw a block and, even if he doesn't knock the corner down, he can potentially free up a path for a blitz on your ballcarrier, rendering your cage useless. In the next match, my opponents the Lizardmen are going to do something like this, and I'll be sure to point it out. So, there you go, caging in a nutshell (ha!). Feel free to pick this apart and correct me or whatever. Sometimes I feel like I'm rambling when I do these, probably because I don't really plan them out. GNU Order fucked around with this message at 23:53 on Jun 11, 2014 |
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Jun 11, 2014 23:46
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GNU Order posted:This is a (Cyanide AI, hyperbunker) cage
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Jun 12, 2014 00:32
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Glidergun posted:I got the game from a Steam sale a while back because of another LP, but this one has gotten me to install it and make a team. Very very right. Except for the fact that Terence
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Jun 12, 2014 00:41
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Poil posted:Ah, the "dwarf funcage". Or as I like to call it, a Throw Teammate Target.
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Jun 12, 2014 02:17
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GNU Order posted:Go look up at that sideline cage. Sideline caging can be very useful because you use the sideline to prevent the side of your character, meaning you only need two players to act as corners. In some situations, sideline caging is very effective and a huge pain in the rear end to stop. However, I have shown pretty effectively that standing an unprotected player (either of the cage corners) two squares from the sideline is a dangerous choice when you have a 9 Movement, Frenzy werewolf. 420 surf 'errday. Seriously though, never EVER sideline cage against Norse or Khorne. And if you see either of these factions sideline caging its probably a ploy to get you closer to the sideline.
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Jun 12, 2014 02:24
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Sideline caging is also a very bad idea against stunties. They can just -2db the ball carrier for a surf and not care about the tackle zones.
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Jun 12, 2014 02:27
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Blackmage Yapo posted:420 surf 'errday. Don't do it against anyone with leap either. e: Basically sideline cages are much more dangerous but you only need 3 players.
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Jun 12, 2014 02:52
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Goddamit Witch Elves are frustrating to use with no skill (neither on the witch or from my part  ). Surfing is very fun, though. I'm pairing my lone Witch with a lineman with guard to patrol the sidelines, but I end up in many 1db anyway. Should I just use her like GNU was using McGruff (RIP), blitzing from behind my lines and them moving her back to safety, at least until she gets block?
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Jun 12, 2014 09:45
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Fat Samurai posted:Goddamit Witch Elves are frustrating to use with no skill (neither on the witch or from my part Until she gets block, you should do your best to score with her. Aside from that, yes, if you do blitz with her, try to get back to safety. Witches are a massive target and break p. easily. (Comedy option for witch survival - get an assassin. They pull so much hate off everybody else, it's hilarious. Suboptimal and expensive because they die and niggle left and right, but hilarious.) Duuk fucked around with this message at 09:55 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 09:53
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Duuk posted:Until she gets block, you should do your best to score with her. Multiple Block Assassins are hilarious and if you ever get the chance to field one, do it. You'll be able to gently caress up stabs twice as often!
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Jun 12, 2014 14:01
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I like assassins a lot but they're on one of the most expensive rosters in the game and are usually an unaffordable luxury. It doesn't help that there are a lot of skills they really, really want but they're pretty awful at getting SPP.
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Jun 12, 2014 15:18
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Always remember that Assassins and Witch Elves are both still Dark Elves and therefore are totally capable of scoring and leveling up that way. You know, assuming your Assassin isn't eating a bunch of boots until he's dead, which probably because nobody likes being Stabbed and holy poo poo does nobody like being Shadowed.
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Jun 12, 2014 15:21
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I would trade Assassins to get my DE passers back in a heartbeat. 
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Jun 12, 2014 17:36
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Passing is for weaker elves. DE are meant to bash.
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Jun 12, 2014 19:44
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Sair posted:Passing is for weaker elves. DE are meant to bash. Assuming they're not up against a bashier team, then it's Elfbowl all day erry day.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:09
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GladRagKraken posted:I would trade Assassins to get my DE passers back in a heartbeat. Runners get pass skill access on normals, just have one of them play QB and pass to your Witch Elves, who will then frenzy-blitz and Leap through all their poo poo. Alternatively do the same with Blitzers, who are also pretty well suited to get the ball and run it in. Really alternatively just do it with whatever arbitrary player you feel like on your team because they're all really good at playing Blood Bowl because despite liking punching and running the ball they're still loving elves at the end of the day. Meanwhile you get a positional with Shadowing that can run up into poo poo and be really annoying, stabbing fools that are hard to block traditionally while still having the option of throwing regular blocks if that's more appropriate to the situation. Feinne fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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Jun 12, 2014 21:27
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Gabriel Pope posted:I like assassins a lot but they're on one of the most expensive rosters in the game and are usually an unaffordable luxury. It doesn't help that there are a lot of skills they really, really want but they're pretty awful at getting SPP. If you are against an AV7 team, I can see why Stabbing their best guys is really tempting. But if it's some shitey lino or Skeleton or whatever, just 2db block them and try to get some Cas SPP. Plus as Feinne says, it's an Agi 4 player, just throw them the ball for a TD or have them vanity pass to get within five points of a level if nothing else.
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Jun 12, 2014 21:46
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Yeah, the thing with the Assassin is that his special uses kind of vary depending on what sort of team you're up against. Fragile teams have to worry about him Stabbing, but using him right his Shadowing is far more of a threat. When he's part of a screen the other player is pretty much obligated to either punch him out of the way or go out of their way to avoid him, and just standing him next to a receiver pretty much obligates the other player to find a way to punch him. Otherwise, you run the risk of him being a huge jerk and you getting to roll a bunch of extra dodges because of his Shadowing. As long as you don't mind the risk to him, he's also great at forcing players with Break Tackle to pretend they don't even have the skill since if he Shadows them suddenly they're back to their real agility. I mean don't get me wrong he's expensive and it's probably best not to start with him on the lineup but for the extra expense you get some abilities that have a big impact on how your opponent plays for as long as the Assassin manages to stay on the pitch (which to be fair the other guy is going to try and get him dead because he's not just an elf, but a huge rear end in a top hat elf).
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Jun 12, 2014 22:23
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