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Uatu is dead during this whole multiverse/Earth car crash thing, right? You know, the guy who'd save Earth by handing over the Ultimate Nullifier probably wouldn't sit on his thumbs if an impending destructive event was coming to, you know, wipe out an entire universe, would he?
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Jun 13, 2014 14:41
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Fuckstick Electric posted:Uatu is dead during this whole multiverse/Earth car crash thing, right? You know, the guy who'd save Earth by handing over the Ultimate Nullifier probably wouldn't sit on his thumbs if an impending destructive event was coming to, you know, wipe out an entire universe, would he? Yup, but since whatever did this laid The Living Tribunal out there's approximately jack and poo poo Uatu could have done anyway.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:52
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SirDan3k posted:Yup, but since whatever did this laid The Living Tribunal out there's approximately jack and poo poo Uatu could have done anyway.
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Jun 13, 2014 14:54
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I didn't really pick up on it during my first read but god drat this sequence (right before Namor's moment) is incredible.  For all his smugness and arrogance, even he struggled over the decision to be what the illuminati needed him to be.
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Jun 13, 2014 15:13
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:I didn't really pick up on it during my first read but god drat this sequence (right before Namor's moment) is incredible. I didn't interpret it that way, I took it as him getting tired of the Illuminati's diplomatic effort. Especially with his line in the next scene about choosing to be a monster on his terms -- the Illuminati know the how apocalyptic the incursions are, they have developed apocalyptic weapons themselves to solve the problem, and now, on the eve of destruction, they choose a path that will ultimately be futile. He's not going to wait to be a monster born of circumstance.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:37
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Yeah, I don't think there's any struggle at all. Except the struggle to stop biting his tongue and get this poo poo going.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:40
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Namor is a glorious rear end in a top hat, a majestic and noble jackass. But even he isn't thrilled to murder billions. But he will bear that burden and he will do it as he sees fit.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:44
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Namor's a character that I never really dug when I was younger and always seemed like a weird throwback to me but I've really been liking him for the past couple years in comics and he's quickly becoming one of my favorite parts of Hickman's New Avengers. That scene for me read like a mix of both of those feelings? Like, I think there's probably a struggle even for him to decide that it's actually time to go ahead with the other Earth killing and a frustration with the other Illuminati that he has to be the one who pushes them forward into it. MagnesiumB fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 18:35
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redbackground posted:Sure would like to come back to that one day! loving Bendis. Always dropping storylines.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:38
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What are the best pre-2000s Namor stories? Was he always like this, or is that a more recent development?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:54
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I'm gonna have to agree on Namor not struggling with the choice. He's clearly just loving tired of the Illuminati dancing around the killing thing while doing everything they can to enable it, specially since they were pretty much talking about using this hour to try and find a solution everyone knows doesn't exist.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:12
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Namor's ALWAYS been a massive dick, his fist comic had him murder a bunch of divers because he thought they were robots.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:12
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Hakkesshu posted:What are the best pre-2000s Namor stories? Was he always like this, or is that a more recent development? Super Villain Team Up was the Doom and Namor show. Morrison's Fantastic Four 1234 had some great Namor moments too.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:59
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Die Laughing posted:Super Villain Team Up was the Doom and Namor show. Morrison's Fantastic Four 1234 had some great Namor moments too. Both of these were great, 1234 in particular laid the groundwork for the "I'm not a man; I'm a King." attitude that Namor has. 
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Jun 14, 2014 08:40
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:For all his smugness and arrogance, even he struggled over the decision to be what the illuminati needed him to be. Deadpool posted:Yeah, I don't think there's any struggle at all. Except the struggle to stop biting his tongue and get this poo poo going. I think there's definitely some struggle there, but it's a struggle that's mostly already ended; we've seen it happening for several issues now. Namor is pretty sure that in order to save the Earth, the Illuminati are going to have to become mass murderers. He hates that. But if it has to be done, he'll damned well suck it up and do it - because he's a king, not a man, and he can't afford to put 'being who and what I want to be' above the well-being of his realm (and, by extension, his dimension). This is why he and T'challa have been talking about being a King for the last, like, year and a half now. Everyone else is trying to be a hero; Namor is the one saying that this isn't a time for heroes. That's why he's so dismissive of the Not-JLA; by being a hero, by having "hope," you permit yourself to avoid making the difficult choices that a King has to make every day. The look on Namor's face in those panels isn't 'Namor struggling to come to terms with doing what he has to do.' It's 'Namor realizing that that struggle is already over, and it sucks, and dwelling on it isn't helping so let's just get this poo poo done so we can all go home and try to find a way to look at ourselves in the mirror.' That sequence is Namor giving up. Which makes it, to my mind, all the more emotional. EDIT: Hakkesshu posted:Was he always like this, or is that a more recent development? There's always been a degree of Namor being the "I'm not a superhero, I'm a loving King" type to some degree or another, but it's only comparatively recently that that's become a major facet of his character rather than just an added wrinkle. DivineCoffeeBinge fucked around with this message at 09:31 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 09:28
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I guess it is a bit harder to imagine Namor as King considering that Atlantis hasn't really properly been an organized country for several years now. It was destroyed in that Namor mini several years back, then he shacked up with Doom for a while, then joined the X-Men and his Atlanteans lived under the water there and now they're just...ambiguously somewhere or something?
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Jun 14, 2014 13:13
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Atlantis was wrecked by Wakanda in retaliation of Phoenix-Namor. It was shown in ruins during Infinity.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:05
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notthegoatseguy posted:I guess it is a bit harder to imagine Namor as King considering that Atlantis hasn't really properly been an organized country for several years now. It was destroyed in that Namor mini several years back, then he shacked up with Doom for a while, then joined the X-Men and his Atlanteans lived under the water there and now they're just...ambiguously somewhere or something? You should check out his most recent ongoing, which took place during his X-Men days. The king aspect of him was the centerpiece and led to a tragic/badass ending.
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Jun 14, 2014 14:48
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Pretty much agreeing with DivineCoffeeBinge here. This isn't the face of "I HAVE NO REGRETS AND IT'S MURDERIN' TIME"  It's someone who has decided that they have no options left, and the only action left that they can take is absolutely monstrous. Also, I really love that the Great Society is representative of the "ideal" Justice League, with that kind of heroic tone of trying for the best in a hopeless situation when the actual DC dudes have been trying to have this gritty, "dark" approach for what seems like awhile now.
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Jun 14, 2014 15:23
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Fereydun posted:Also, I really love that the Great Society is representative of the "ideal" Justice League, with that kind of heroic tone of trying for the best in a hopeless situation when the actual DC dudes have been trying to have this gritty, "dark" approach for what seems like awhile now. I think it was d00gZ who said a few months ago that the first Great Society issue was literally the best Justice League comic in years, which I laughed with at first, but on reflection... yeah. Wow.
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Jun 14, 2014 15:43
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I wonder if the Apocasphynx is a hint that maybe the Great Society aren't as beyond reproach as we think. Perhaps they reveal something horrifying about their world that causes someone unexpected (ie not Namor) to press the button. "You're a mutant? We eradicated those gene jokes when this whole mess started!" *cold stare as Hank sets off the bomb*
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Jun 14, 2014 19:09
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Little Mac posted:I wonder if the Apocasphynx is a hint that maybe the Great Society aren't as beyond reproach as we think. Perhaps they reveal something horrifying about their world that causes someone unexpected (ie not Namor) to press the button. Seems kind of lame. Giving them a reason to use it kind of robs it of any meaning if they deserve it.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:14
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I agree but on the other hand does Marvel want any of their franchise characters to become mass murderers? New Avengers is such a neat book. I wish it moved faster.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:17
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Little Mac posted:I agree but on the other hand does Marvel want any of their franchise characters to become mass murderers? Do they want any of their franchise characters to make deals with the devil? Marvel doesn't care, it'll all get undone eventually or just be eventually forgotten over time.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:44
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Little Mac posted:I agree but on the other hand does Marvel want any of their franchise characters to become mass murderers? The Illuminati's whole gimmick is they are evil dicks who are try and rationalize their dickishness away. The only reason they aren't seen as evil is because of two reasons. 1. They are staffed by mainly heroes. Who for the most part have other books to act as a counterbalance. 2. they are really bad at their job. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 20:07
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Does this incursion run start at #1? I'm interested to see how a DC power set works in a Marvel universe.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:03
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CharlestheHammer posted:The Illuminati's whole gimmick is they are evil dicks who are try and rationalize their dickishness away. There's nothing evil about the illuminati besides gathering secretly. Destroying one Earth to save another is a moral quandary, and you can't really consider anyone evil for considering the option. Though I guess a necessary evil is still evil, but it's a far cry from considering them evil dicks.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:17
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They're also taking an approach of trying to solve the whole incursion thing at the source. The bridge + studying the incursions shows that they're not just trying to kill other Earths. Blowing up Earths isn't their end goal, it's the only play they have until they can figure poo poo out.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:22
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TwoPair posted:Do they want any of their franchise characters to make deals with the devil? Marvel doesn't care, it'll all get undone eventually or just be eventually forgotten over time. Scott's reaction to the oh so righeous Henry is going to be great.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:24
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Tremendous Taste posted:Does this incursion run start at #1? I'm interested to see how a DC power set works in a Marvel universe. The first issue of New Avengers by Hickman is the start of incursions. But the
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Jun 14, 2014 21:24
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Yawgmoft posted:Scott's reaction to the oh so righeous Henry is going to be great. Beast is already a mass murderer thanks to Secret Avengers anyway.
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Jun 14, 2014 21:32
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Die Laughing posted:There's nothing evil about the illuminati besides gathering secretly. Destroying one Earth to save another is a moral quandary, and you can't really consider anyone evil for considering the option. Though I guess a necessary evil is still evil, but it's a far cry from considering them evil dicks. I already mentioned the dumb rationalization part, but I guess having it fleshed out is nice. Though to be honest, I am rather tired of the whole evil dicks pretend to just do what is necessary thing. The thought should have died with the hulk incident. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 21:46
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I really hope this arc ends with Captain America and the rest of the Avengers jumping into the middle of the incursion, slapping down the Illumanti and working together with the Great Society to combine all the crazy rear end powers they collectively have to stop the incursion. The next arc is then the Avengers tearing up AIM island and taking hold of the universe hopping technology, which is combined with Reed's viewer. Captain America then upscales again. Avengers Multiverse. If one super team can't stop an incursion without destroying a planet get a thousand from across the Multiverse to help each other out whenever an incursion happens, as well as pooling knowledge to track down the source. I can't help but think that hope and life as embodied by Captain America is going to win out over the Death and lesser evils represented by Tony, with something like the above being the logical conclusion of the Avengers World approach upscaled to all realities.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:04
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CharlestheHammer posted:I already mentioned the dumb rationalization part, but I guess having it fleshed out is nice. T'Challa was right back then.  If this entire story ends in any other way than the Illuminati realizing their entire approach was wrong-headed and they should've told... everyone... I'll be very surprised.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:51
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Die Laughing posted:There's nothing evil about the illuminati besides gathering secretly. Destroying one Earth to save another is a moral quandary, and you can't really consider anyone evil for considering the option. Though I guess a necessary evil is still evil, but it's a far cry from considering them evil dicks. This may be a caaa-raaaazay opinion, but I'm going to say gathering your richest friends together to rule the world in secret because no one else, certainly not the people being ruled, can be trusted to do it is actually evil. Double-evil if everything you actually do (getting captured by the Skrulls and leaking all Earth's defense information, shooting the Hulk into space, etc) makes things worse for basically everyone and you still decide not to stop doing it. I mean, Stark is so bad at his job that the Skrulls gave him a cold and it knocked out every piece of StarkTech, everywhere, right down to the toasters. That is the kind of thing that gets engineers put in prison.
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Jun 14, 2014 22:57
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They stopped like three incursions already. The Earth wouldn't have made it past issue 3 if they didn't get the gauntlet together.
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Jun 14, 2014 23:14
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Die Laughing posted:They stopped like three incursions already. The Earth wouldn't have made it past issue 3 if they didn't get the gauntlet together. The alternative to their current set-up isn't to do nothing. If they'd told the Avengers, X-men, Fantastic Four, etc then they still could have collected the Infinity Gems.
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Jun 14, 2014 23:20
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That's a little naive. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that even a whole mess of people working en masse to solve the issue wouldn't actually solve the issue. Like they've said (repeatedly, ad nasaeum, to the point of irritation), if it were that easy to solve, many of their counterparts on other Earths would've done so by now. Which isn't even considering that this Marvel Earth doesn't exactly have a stellar recent track record of heroes working together competently. Cap likes to talk a big game about his whole Avengers World, but let's see him work together with Cyclops for more than ten minutes without coming to blows.
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Jun 14, 2014 23:32
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Lurdiak posted:T'Challa was right back then. He was right then BUT he was also the one that got the gang back together in the first place.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:03
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BrianWilly posted:Which isn't even considering that this Marvel Earth doesn't exactly have a stellar recent track record of heroes working together competently. Cap likes to talk a big game about his whole Avengers World, but let's see him work together with Cyclops for more than ten minutes without coming to blows. This happened! In A+X, he worked with Scott.
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Jun 15, 2014 00:05
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