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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm inclined to agree with you that "The Adversary" was a reference to the White God in that context. I do partly wonder if "Nemesis" in the Dresdenverse is another name for Lucifer -- it doesn't seem likely but it does seem possible. I don't think so, Lucifer[/spoil] made a play in Small Favor. With all the fallout that entailed, I think we'd know. Unless of course [spoiler] Uriel wasn't being compeletly honest with the rules in Skin Game. I say 'plausible' but unlikely. I'm still operating on the assumption that Nick was referring to Nemesis, since it seems to have ERRYBODY on the run. I'm also guessing that Nemesis is more akin to Sauron (ignoring Satan parallels) or even Ungoliant. But again, that's meta knowledge guessing about what Butcher would do, and not what might happen in-universe.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just wish Dresden was making a little more progress as a character in this area instead of backsliding so badly. The high point on his character arc in this regard was probably when he told Molly that sex with his apprentice was never, ever going to happen because that would be morally wrong. Since that time . . . well, the past few books have been verging into John Ringo -esque "I hate rapists because I'm a rapist at heart myself but don't act on it" voyeur-porn. I can agree with that sentiment. It would be great to see him improve himself. I think that's more likely to happen now if he weasels his way out of the winter knight's mantle, since he really seems to hate when that side of himself manifests in his thoughts. In Skin Game he seemed to be getting over his white knight tendencies, at least with Murphy, so there's hope for more self-improvement. I have no interest in reading a character that's the wizard equivalent of John Cena. His flaws are what they are, and it's better for him to acknowledge his stare and learn to keep it under control than to excise it from the narrative so we can pretend such things don't exist.
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Jun 13, 2014 16:44
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I just wish Dresden was making a little more progress as a character in this area instead of backsliding so badly. The high point on his character arc in this regard was probably when he told Molly that sex with his apprentice was never, ever going to happen because that would be morally wrong. Since that time . . . well, the past few books have been verging into John Ringo -esque "I hate rapists because I'm a rapist at heart myself but don't act on it" voyeur-porn. Honestly, it's the thing I hate the most about the series. Between that and Butcher's gratuitous inclusion of as many quotes from the sort of movies awkward thirteen year old dorks love to parrot in order to feel clever. Dresden often comes off as both creepy and insufferable at the same time. It's really a shame too, because Butcher has created an interesting universe. I've read every book, but I don't think I will ever admit to having done so to anyone in real life just because of how goddamned goony Harry (and, based on his author photos alone, Butcher) is. Basically I want someone to write stories based in a similar universe but with a protagonist who isn't a lecherous nerd with wrong ideas about sex and women.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:07
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I've read Skin Game twice and then started re reading the series from Death Masks onward. Harry's Male Gaze in Skin Game is noticeably less bad. He notes that Hannah Ascher is attractive but doesn't spend paragraphs lustfully describing her body like he did in books past
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Jun 13, 2014 17:32
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Rygar201 posted:I've read Skin Game twice and then started re reading the series from Death Masks onward. Harry's Male Gaze in Skin Game is noticeably less bad. He notes that Hannah Ascher is attractive but doesn't spend paragraphs lustfully describing her body like he did in books past I have not read the Codex Alera so I'm curious, does Butcher's writing in that series have similar issues when it comes to the portrayal and use of female characters? And to supply a more lighthearted topic: What are peoples' wishlists for Dresden Files shortstories? I'm going with... An explanation of Lea's absence during Cold Days. Until Butcher says otherwise, I'm sticking to my headcanon that she was still being a good godmother and was covering Harry's duties by dealing with all the warden-paperwork Harry never bothered with and was having a grand time annoying Luccio. Mouse & Maggie's school adventures. Buddycop adventures with Butters and Sanya. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 17:44
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He does not look as goony with the haircut though. although, google images will have the long-hair doggie larp? photo forever. Hopefully when the Winter Mantel is destroyed somehow, causing another huge problem it'll make Harry reflect a bit.
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Jun 13, 2014 17:45
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Raygereio posted:And to supply a more lighthearted topic: What are peoples' wishlists for Dresden Files shortstories? Along with what you posted, more of Molly between the end of Changes and now, whatever Kincaid is up to, and maybe something about Ebenezer in his younger years.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:23
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SystemLogoff posted:He does not look as goony with the haircut though.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:31
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I'd be down for a story about Kincaid wrecking faces.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:32
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Hypothetically, what are we left with when we deconstruct every trigger and cultural appropriation and male gaze? Do the stories function at all without these socio-hegemonic reactions? The first book doesn't happen because the inclusion of sexual violence is triggering and reinforces any number of vile cultural mores. None of the red court lore and Changes can happen because they are massive cultural appropriations of "Pre-Columbian Meso-Americans were killer savages." Which is just as ugly as giving a paragraph to Hannah Ascher stripping. Thomas's Gay-Acting hairdresser plays hurtful stereotypes for quick audience laughs. Lasciel is either a regressive, disproven metaphor for serious and little understood mental health issues such as dissociative personality. Or, she is an appropriation of persons that identify as multiple systems. I'm not saying "if you can't take it stop reading." I am absolutely in favor of total cultural deconstruction, dragging the creators over the coals and putting an end to profitable hate-reinforcement. But I'm not sure how we proceed.
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Jun 13, 2014 18:38
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maybe in the next book mab sends harry after a bunch of social justice warriors who wont shut the gently caress up
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Jun 13, 2014 18:51
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If Harry could use a computer, would he post on headmate tumblrs?
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Jun 13, 2014 18:58
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It makes me uncomfortable when the protagonist of a book series I like repeatedly objectifies women. I wish over the course of these 12 or 13 books the character Harry Dresden would grow a little bit on this issue. I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:00
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HUMAN FISH posted:If Harry could use a computer, would he post on headmate tumblrs? This is the Paranet.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:01
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Wachepti posted:It makes me uncomfortable when the protagonist of a book series I like repeatedly objectifies women. I wish over the course of these 12 or 13 books he would grow a little bit on this issue. I don't think there's anything wrong in saying that. He has, though.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:01
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FordPRefectLL posted:He has, though. Maybe I need to re-read the earlier books but it doesn't seem that way to me. It seems like it's gotten worse.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:02
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Wachepti posted:Maybe I need to re-read the earlier books but it doesn't seem that way to me. It seems like it's gotten worse. How is not realizing he's doing something problematic and insulting and going to internally recognizing it and making actual attempts to avoid it getting worse just out of curiosity?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:06
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Heres a thought, read the short stories set to Molly, Murphy and Thomas's point of view and lets see what it gives us. Because im absolutely convinced Harry is this goony on purpose, that hes a living example of "You shouldn't act on these thoughts, It'd be bad for everyone involved." Ill put my money where my mouth is and give the three short stories a re-read and come back with my own. SpookyLizard posted:maybe in the next book mab sends harry after a bunch of social justice warriors who wont shut the gently caress up It escalates into MRA's vs SJW face off, the climax is the internet exploding FOREVER, the paranet resorts to carrier pigeons. 
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Jun 13, 2014 19:07
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I'm also convinced that anyone who has an issue with Harry's evolution or concept as a character should probably put down fantasy/scifi for a bit and read some classic literature where all the truly "problematic" characters are. This isn't exactly a new thing in fiction and I'm pleased that Jim Butcher is challenging people with how he writes his characters whether or not it's intentional.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:12
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Skin Game kinda glosses over the fact that Harry was more or less alone on the island for a year. His friends visited a few times, and it mentioned that they are worried about him. If gawking at attractive women is the worst effect of being in solitary confinement for a year, then Harry is doing much better than expected. I wonder if the alone time has anything to do with Mabs for now line? It would be very much like Mab to have multiple reasons for her actions. edit: spoiler tags
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Jun 13, 2014 19:31
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Wachepti posted:Maybe I need to re-read the earlier books but it doesn't seem that way to me. It seems like it's gotten worse. You should re read the series because he absolutely improves in his attitudes towards women, both in terms of his male gaze and his "chivalry" issues as well. Butcher literally also points out the second point in Skin Game during one of the later fight scenes
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Jun 13, 2014 19:32
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FordPRefectLL posted:I'd be down for a story about Kincaid wrecking faces. Mab probably still holds a grudge against Kincaid for his role in Harry's attempted suicide. Molly has already been punished, what will Mab do to Kincaid?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:41
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stayl posted:Mab probably still holds a grudge against Kincaid for his role in Harry's attempted suicide. Molly has already been punished, what will Mab do to Kincaid? I doubt that she'll do anything. She probably sees Kincaid more as the weapon, not the person behind it. Besides, in her mind Molly becoming Winter Lady is a reward, so she really didn't punish her.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:47
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stayl posted:Mab probably still holds a grudge against Kincaid for his role in Harry's attempted suicide. Molly has already been punished, what will Mab do to Kincaid? Also how was Molly punished?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:49
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Raygereio posted:And to supply a more lighthearted topic: What are peoples' wishlists for Dresden Files shortstories? I'm going with...
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Jun 13, 2014 19:55
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I want more Elaine, because I think she'd be closer to the Wizard-Noir that started the series out, and I really enjoyed Dresden being a Private Investigator AND a Wizard. Also, Elaine has really neat magic and if she's still staying off Council radar, that's good drama. Also, she's a natural team up with Carlos. And I really want a Butters, Andi, and Bob team up. Because let's not forget that Andi is still a freakin' werewolf.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:57
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Raygereio posted:Also how was Molly punished? Being made into an inhumaan faerie queen is hardly a good thing.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:57
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stayl posted:Being made into an inhumaan faerie queen is hardly a good thing. To a mortal yes but to Mab?
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Jun 13, 2014 20:06
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stayl posted:Being made into an inhumaan faerie queen is hardly a good thing. Also we don't really know yet if becomming the Winter Lady was a good, a bad or just a thing for Molly. Maeve was certainly a few fries short of a happy meal. But we don't know if that was because she was unable to resist the Mantle's influence. Or if it was because of whatever Nemesis did. Or if her family issues were to blame. Raygereio fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jun 13, 2014 |
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Jun 13, 2014 20:08
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Wachepti posted:Maybe I need to re-read the earlier books but it doesn't seem that way to me. It seems like it's gotten worse. Also, Butcher's definitely improved his characterization since those early books. Michael and Charity are practically caricatures.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:10
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Lord Hydronium posted:Michael and Charity are practically caricatures. I recently started going through the series again and I have to agree. I just finished Grave Peril again on Tuesday and I was really excited to get into it because Michael stories are so bad rear end. The difference between the Michael of Skin Game and the Michael of Grave Peril is staggering. He's about as edgy as a butter knife. His lines read like what someone who has never met a Christian would think a dedicated Christian says. Lord Hydronium posted:As a single data point, I reread Grave Peril recently, and I swear there is literally not a single scene with Lea where her breasts aren't described. It's really weird. I'm surprised she didn't duel Michael sword vs. nipple for Amoracchius. It really emphasizes what a shut-in Harry was early in the series and he definitely improved as he made more social connections. It's no shock he regressed a bit after being confined to Demonreach for a year, but he had the self-awareness to realize it.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:29
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MildShow posted:She probably sees Kincaid more as the weapon, not the person behind it. If there's one thing the fae take seriously it's obligation. I can't see Mab being too tolerant of someone helping people escape from their obligations to her, even if they were being paid. Punish is probably the wrong word. Once Molly meddled in fae affairs Mab felt free to use Molly as she saw fit. As Harry has found out, being used by Mab can feel a lot like punishment.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:46
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TenaciousJ posted:The difference between the Michael of Skin Game and the Michael of Grave Peril is staggering. He's about as edgy as a butter knife. His lines read like what someone who has never met a Christian would think a dedicated Christian says. That's really interesting. I never felt that way, and I grew up in the sort of church that would probably have supported a Knight of the Cross if only magic were real. So did Butcher, for that matter. In my mind, Michael has had a really believable transition. Can you post an example of something that's so cheesy you can't believe it?
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Jun 13, 2014 20:48
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Raygereio posted:And to supply a more lighthearted topic: What are peoples' wishlists for Dresden Files shortstories? A short story entirely from Toot-toot's POV, if only to force James Marsters into doing that voice for the whole thing.
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Jun 13, 2014 20:58
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SystemLogoff posted:He does not look as goony with the haircut though. I'm just going to point out that he only cut his hair (well shaved his head actually) so he could properly Larp a necromancer for a big event. Jim Butcher is basically the most successful goon. He's more goony than most of us will ever be.
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Jun 13, 2014 21:23
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Raygereio posted:That was in no way a punishment from Mab. If anything, Mab probably views it as an honor for Molly. After all Mab thought she was capable enough to be the Lady-mantle's backup plan. One interesting thing I picked up from re-reading Cold Days was Sarissa mentioning to Harry that her sister (Whom we later find out is Maeve) has a form of congenital dementia. Which explains a lot.
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Jun 13, 2014 22:02
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Scintilla posted:One interesting thing I picked up from re-reading Cold Days was Sarissa mentioning to Harry that her sister (Whom we later find out is Maeve) has a form of congenital dementia. Which explains a lot. My reading of that is that she's referring to her sister being Fae.
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Jun 13, 2014 23:41
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Wow, I must have been consistantly misreading that part then cause I'd always thought that Sarissa was the one with the dementia being staved off by Mab in exchange for her service.
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Jun 14, 2014 03:26
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Illuyankas posted:Wow, I must have been consistantly misreading that part then cause I'd always thought that Sarissa was the one with the dementia being staved off by Mab in exchange for her service. Yeah me too.
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Jun 14, 2014 03:31
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MrGreenShirt posted:A short story entirely from Toot-toot's POV, if only to force James Marsters into doing that voice for the whole thing. No we can't have this, because Toot's male gaze of Lacuna would spur another 10 page discussion of why Butcher is a bad person.
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Jun 14, 2014 03:39
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