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I wish we could have spent some time with post-feminist Ferenginar. 
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Jun 14, 2014 16:33
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precious 
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Bicyclops posted:What I don't get about Ferenginar is if you're a Ferengi woman who suddenly realizes she's out of tube grubs, if you wander outside, naked, probably stepping in gross Ferengi loogies on the way to the bus, how are you supposed to get on? If you're carrying Latinum, people are going to look at you like you're some sort of hu-mon, but it's not like you're on some Victorian pedestal where they're going to let you on the bus for free, tip their hats and say, "A seat, m'lady?" You use the Ferengi internet. The best part is that you pay for shipping, but when the guy delivers, he has to pay you to open the door so he can finish the delivery, or else he'll be fined by the company for failing to complete the delivery! I don't think Ferengar would look like Somalia. The Ferengi seem to have a real distaste for the use of force to achieve business goals, at least on their own turf. Sash! fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 16:34
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Gammatron 64 posted:I think Somalia is the end result of a libertarian society and if Star Trek was realistic, Ferenginar would probably resemble that a little more. I guess what I've always thought is that Ferengi and Klingons are actually aliens, and their brain chemistry/emotions/reasoning process/etc really doesn't work the same way as humans. Given the same circumstances, humans, klingons, ferengi, etc. all behave differently - Cardassians, on the other hand, are much, much more like humans.
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Jun 14, 2014 17:13
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The Ferengi as stereotyped could easily attain space travel. An alien race not bound by the prime directive lands on Ferenginar and the Ferengi offer to purchase their space ship technology. Then they buy more stuff and become a space power through commerce. The Klingons as stereotyped would never make it off their planet. An alien race would land on their planet to talk to them and the Klingons would kill them. Then they take the ship and try to use it but they just bash poo poo around trying to get it to work. By the time any Klingon scientist got anywhere near the ship, it would be near destroyed by all the Klingon warriors having their way with it. Not to mention he would be made fun of by all the warriors for not being as warriory as them. I don't get why none of the other empires have any other races on their ships. The Federation accepts other planets into their alliance and their people serve on Federation ships. The Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians all conquer other worlds and make them part of their respective empires. Why don't any of these peoples serve aboard the ships of their conquerors?
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Jun 14, 2014 17:17
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Because the budget has the final word?  I imagine that their would probably be some Remans serving in the lower ranks of the Romulan ships and the like. I'm not so versed in the setting for the other races though.
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Jun 14, 2014 17:26
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Cojawfee posted:The Ferengi as stereotyped could easily attain space travel. An alien race not bound by the prime directive lands on Ferenginar and the Ferengi offer to purchase their space ship technology. Then they buy more stuff and become a space power through commerce. The Klingons as stereotyped would never make it off their planet. An alien race would land on their planet to talk to them and the Klingons would kill them. Then they take the ship and try to use it but they just bash poo poo around trying to get it to work. By the time any Klingon scientist got anywhere near the ship, it would be near destroyed by all the Klingon warriors having their way with it. Not to mention he would be made fun of by all the warriors for not being as warriory as them. Klingons can be cunning as well as ferocious. In one of my favorite stories from the old novels, which has since been invalidated by Enterprise, the Federation gave the Klingons Warp Technology then got invaded by said Klingons a few years later, leading to both the military situation as you see it at the start of TOS and the Prime Directive because "we'll be damned if we make THAT mistake again!" As far as non-Klingons/Romulans/Cardassians on other races ships: Again, in the novels, there are a lot of non-Klingon slaves aboard Klingon warships, but you'll never see them on the Bridge or in Engineering. They cook, clean, do the laundry, and do all the menial tasks that are below a warrior's honor. I doubt the Romulans trust non-Romulans aboard their ships, and I'm not sure the Cardassians actually conquered anyone except the Bajorans. If they did, I can't recall hearing about it.
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Jun 14, 2014 17:26
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I could see the Klingons of TOS era being smart and cunning. The Klingons of TNG era are all idiots. I like to imagine that is Kronos' version of Idiocracy. Everything the Klingons use is from hundreds of years ago. They have no idea how it works, they just use it because someone smart made it. It fits too because everything they use is from TOS era.
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Jun 14, 2014 17:48
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jng2058 posted:
I imagine the Ferengi probably have a massive slave class. In fact, I was surprised when Quark's mom was doing tasks around the house because I figured they'd have an entire unpaid house staff. Can you IMAGINE what being in debt as a lower-class Ferengi is like? Or anyone of a race conquered by Ferengi?
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Jun 14, 2014 17:51
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I think the cardies and Romulans work the best as they're pretty much cribbed directly from earth history. The Romulans are a very unsubtle space Roman Empire and the Cardassians are based on various fascist regimes. I mean, for crying out loud, the Romulans are called loving Romulans and they come from Romulus and Remus and they have a praetor and centurions and a ton of other stuff. The TOS Klingons started off as the communist Chinese, but between TOS and TNG they became drunken space vikings with a dash of bushido code. I think the TNG\DS9 Klingons might have been a little more believable if they cribbed more from WWII-era Imperial Japan and less from the Vikings. The Ferengi are very 1980s "greed is good" corporate America played for comic relief. They are pretty much space libertarians. Cojawfee posted:I don't get why none of the other empires have any other races on their ships. The Federation accepts other planets into their alliance and their people serve on Federation ships. The Klingons, Romulans and Cardassians all conquer other worlds and make them part of their respective empires. Why don't any of these peoples serve aboard the ships of their conquerors? That question you ask is exactly why they made the Dominion.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:20
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I think that the Ferengis' libertarian society "works" because they're actually an alien race and might not be prone to the same failings as humans. Quark just about said as much in one episode, I believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5J_qn93Nkc
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Jun 14, 2014 18:32
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Lazy_Liberal posted:I wish we could have spent some time with post-feminist Ferenginar. I feel like the Ferengi would see massive economic growth after the events of DS9. If the women have equal ability to do business as men then they doubled their workforce without changing their expenses save for clothing the women.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:33
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Pretty sure the Klingons were Space Russians.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:34
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Gammatron 64 posted:That question you ask is exactly why they made the Dominion. But the Dominion doesn't use any of its subject races on its ships either.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:37
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Cojawfee posted:I could see the Klingons of TOS era being smart and cunning. The Klingons of TNG era are all idiots. I like to imagine that is Kronos' version of Idiocracy. Everything the Klingons use is from hundreds of years ago. They have no idea how it works, they just use it because someone smart made it. It fits too because everything they use is from TOS era. In the Star Fleet Battles / Starfleet Command 'verse, this is basically the case. All of the Klingon tech is either way out of date, bought from the Romulans, or stolen from the Romulans. In fact I think some of the Klingon kit is actually stuff that they were going to buy from the Romulans, but then they found out it was way out of date so they stole it instead. Edit: gently caress, now I want to re-install Starfleet Command.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:38
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DrSunshine posted:I think that the Ferengis' libertarian society "works" because they're actually an alien race and might not be prone to the same failings as humans. Quark just about said as much in one episode, I believe. Which also points out that the Ferrengi don't enslave people. So there's that, at least.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:41
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DrSunshine posted:I think that the Ferengis' libertarian society "works" because they're actually an alien race and might not be prone to the same failings as humans. Quark just about said as much in one episode, I believe. I think the Vulcans work for the same reason. Like, if a human tried to suppress all emotion like Vulcans do, they would almost certainly snap at some point and start shooting people. Totally bottling up all emotions generally makes people go insane. Then again, Vulcans actually do flip the gently caress out once every seven years when it's Pon Farr season so I guess that applies to them, too. Gau posted:Pretty sure the Klingons were Space Russians. That too. TOS Klingons were generic communists.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:42
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The actual stated history of the Ferengi totally is "we bought warp drive off someone". I'm surprised, though, that a race which is so thoroughly based around economics and profit isn't a client race of someone else entirely. Like the voth in Mass Effect, who are simply the business class of the turian race, and in exchange the turian military protects them as it's in their best interests to do so. And the Klingons were actually conquered by the Hur'q, let's not forget, so maybe they're like the Narn in that respect; they became a race of hardcore warriors to drive the invaders away, but never had their Citizen G'kar to guide them back to sanity and things have just gotten more and more stupid as the centuries wear on.
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Jun 14, 2014 18:57
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You have it backward in Star Fleet Battles. Klingons took the starships of their ancient masters, the Old Kings, and built a battle fleet to subjugate a pile of slave races just like their old masters. The Romulans were decades behind in starship technology and had to buy ships from the Klingons to catch up (and then built their own awesome new ships).
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Jun 14, 2014 19:04
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Cojawfee posted:The Ferengi as stereotyped could easily attain space travel. An alien race not bound by the prime directive lands on Ferenginar and the Ferengi offer to purchase their space ship technology. Then they buy more stuff and become a space power through commerce. The Klingons as stereotyped would never make it off their planet. An alien race would land on their planet to talk to them and the Klingons would kill them. Then they take the ship and try to use it but they just bash poo poo around trying to get it to work. By the time any Klingon scientist got anywhere near the ship, it would be near destroyed by all the Klingon warriors having their way with it. Not to mention he would be made fun of by all the warriors for not being as warriory as them. Where is the honor in murdering some alien that didn't provoke you? Why would the Klingons mock their scientists developing military technology? I'd imagine that the smiths making bat'leths would be some of the most respected guys around. Plus, their command and control caste doesn't seem as rock eating dumb and would be like "well hang on there guys."
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Jun 14, 2014 19:05
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:Section 31 isn't just a challenge to Star Trek or the Federation though, I mean it's basically a big loogie right in the eye of democratic governance. Remember, Section 31 is a completely unofficial, unsanctioned, and unaccountable agency. They're a secret society of people who decide for themselves what constitutes a threat to the Federation and act on those decisions with impunity. The underpinning of S31, like the Men In Black, is that normies are unable to effectively cope with the world around them, and must be secretly influenced and protected by their betters. I view Section 31 to be more like the JSOC we have now. An official organization that exists, but whose missions are so secret, only a very few at the top know it exists and even then, operational details aren't given except by necessity. They simply say, "this is a threat, and we're dealing with it."
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Jun 14, 2014 19:20
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Sash! posted:Where is the honor in murdering some alien that didn't provoke you? In a real Klingon society, maybe. In the one portrayed in the show? No. Sure there are Klingon scientists and other professions, but its always shown in the show that they are lower class than the warriors. During The Search for Spock, the Klingons beam down to the planet and immediately start fighting some giant caterpillar thing.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:27
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But then you have cases like Martok in the Dominion prison camp, who clearly values Bashir's expertise in keeping Worf going and respects him for his skills.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:59
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Time for my bi-annual catchup postApple Jax posted:Hahaha awesome, there's an actual model kit for the Protector, the ship from Galaxy Quest. I kinda want this... I really can't decide between "But inside I have seen many rooms.." and "A ship! As big as this! A clever deception indeed!" so have both Re: Holodeck chat, The Big Goodbye is so loving bizarre. It's completely nuts. I have to imagine that Roddenberry was high and came up with the last scene, laughed for 12 hours straight, then wrote the entire episode backwards. I may have talked about it in here before, but just go watch the final scene where Picard arrives on the bridge in a loosened suit, says "HUALGHGLGRGARLGHGHRL" at the screen, then they laugh about the wacky adventure they just had and leave. Your crewmember just died man
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Jun 14, 2014 20:05
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pre-federation alpha-beta quadrant sounds brutal as hell.
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Jun 14, 2014 20:08
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I never liked the idea (which is canon I guess) that the Ferengi actually bought warp drive from another species. It takes the Ferengi stereotype to a ridiculous extreme. Likewise, I prefer the idea that Klingon society wasn't all about HONOUR throughout their entire history, and that only recently did the warrior caste come to prominence, essentially usurping the infrastructure that the other aspects of Klingon society had built for them. Now and again you hear a Klingon in some episode talking about how the Klingons have lost their way; in my mind their talking about the balanced society that has made way for the warrior class in an age of interstellar conquest. I think there's even an episode of DS9 where Dax lectures Work about how Klingon society is broken.
Subyng fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jun 14, 2014 |
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Jun 14, 2014 20:48
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Brawnfire posted:I imagine the Ferengi probably have a massive slave class. In fact, I was surprised when Quark's mom was doing tasks around the house because I figured they'd have an entire unpaid house staff. Can you IMAGINE what being in debt as a lower-class Ferengi is like? Or anyone of a race conquered by Ferengi? I could have sworn in an episode of DS9 Quark stated the Ferengi find the concept of slavery morally wrong. Now, granted, that doesn't mean you can't have a variation of that where they're totally cool with indentured servitude on the basis that it's legal contract where laws, limits, rules and prearranged boundaries define how much power someone has over someone else. I wouldn't be completely surprised if there wasn't a rule of acquisition that essentially snuck a humanitarian/progressive rule in under the guise of capitalism. "Make sure your employees can afford your own product; it's free advertising." or "Make sure your employees are paid well enough to support themselves; it shows off how profitable you are and prevents them from betraying you."
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Jun 14, 2014 20:57
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JediTalentAgent posted:I could have sworn in an episode of DS9 Quark stated the Ferengi find the concept of slavery morally wrong. Now, granted, that doesn't mean you can't have a variation of that where they're totally cool with indentured servitude on the basis that it's legal contract where laws, limits, rules and prearranged boundaries define how much power someone has over someone else. "Make sure your employees are contractually obligated to sleep with you upon request." But slavery is wrong, of course.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:02
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Serella posted:"Make sure your employees are contractually obligated to sleep with you upon request." But slavery is wrong, of course. Well the one is depriving a hard working Ferengi of his right to earn profit and the other is probably something you should have negotiated out of your contract, really. Slavery isn't illegal because it's immoral, per se; its illegal because it keeps the enslaved from being able to earn, which does seem to be a guaranteed right to Ferengi men.
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Jun 15, 2014 01:12
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MikeJF posted:But the Dominion doesn't use any of its subject races on its ships either.  What would you call the Jem'hadar and the Vorta?
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Jun 15, 2014 01:34
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JediTalentAgent posted:I could have sworn in an episode of DS9 Quark stated the Ferengi find the concept of slavery morally wrong. Now, granted, that doesn't mean you can't have a variation of that where they're totally cool with indentured servitude on the basis that it's legal contract where laws, limits, rules and prearranged boundaries define how much power someone has over someone else. I think it's hilarious to imagine a society so devoted to capital that it comes around again as socialism. After all, we're struggling with an economy that's stagnating due to wealth accumulation at the top. The Ferengi obviously solved that problem by making sure even the bottom of the barrel is able to earn enough to make their superiors wealthy. Fascinating.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:37
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jng2058 posted:Which also points out that the Ferrengi don't enslave people. So there's that, at least. The Ferengi wouldn't call it slavery, just debt. Subyng posted:I never liked the idea (which is canon I guess) that the Ferengi actually bought warp drive from another species. It takes the Ferengi stereotype to a ridiculous extreme. Likewise, I prefer the idea that Klingon society wasn't all about HONOUR throughout their entire history, and that only recently did the warrior caste come to prominence, essentially usurping the infrastructure that the other aspects of Klingon society had built for them. Now and again you hear a Klingon in some episode talking about how the Klingons have lost their way; in my mind their talking about the balanced society that has made way for the warrior class in an age of interstellar conquest. I think there's even an episode of DS9 where Dax lectures Work about how Klingon society is broken. I like the image of the Ferengi thinking he's tricking a Vulcan into selling him warp drive when the Vulcan just thinks he's making first contact. Mike the TV fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 02:40
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Apollodorus posted:
Meat robots. They don't really have any culture beyond worship of the Founders (well, the Jem'Hadar have their white rituals and their military hierarchy), they've been reengineered to the point where they bear no resemblance to their pre-Dominion selves, and they're grown in tubes by the thousands.
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Jun 15, 2014 02:48
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Knormal posted:That was this thing, which featured the ugliest Enterprise ever. Ugh that ship and the art all looks like poo poo. Why couldn't they just pitch a series set right after voyager/ds9? That would have actually made some kind of sense/would have been more familiar with fans and more accessible in general.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:08
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Gorewar posted:Ugh that ship and the art all looks like poo poo. Why couldn't they just pitch a series set right after voyager/ds9? That would have actually made some kind of sense/would have been more familiar with fans and more accessible in general. Think about it this way, though: How many years did TNG start from the end of the TOS-era or the TOS-films? Moving the timeframe several years/decades up does sort of give them an excuse to have a clean break with the previous universe and start building a fresh identity. Andromeda probably would have worked a lot better if it'd been retooled to be an actual Trek show. The idea of an iconic and near-perfect Starfleet-styled vessel emerging to a chaotic Trek future could have been sort of an interesting journey with the concept.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:14
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Marshal Radisic posted:Meat robots. They don't really have any culture beyond worship of the Founders (well, the Jem'Hadar have their white rituals and their military hierarchy), they've been reengineered to the point where they bear no resemblance to their pre-Dominion selves, and they're grown in tubes by the thousands. They're not subjects, they're nobility. I mean, William Pitt, 1st Earl of Chatham was Lord Keeper of the Privy Seal and Prime Minister but George III was still the boss of him. But regular nobodies like you and me definitely had to listen to what William Pitt told us to do, if he even acknowledged our existence.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:19
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No they were actual meat robots. The Vorta were primitive primates when the founders discovered them. They were genetically engineered to be what they are today.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:23
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I'd argue the Jem'Hadar ability to consider and attempt rebellion ~multiple times~ bumps them above meat robot status. No comment on the Vorta.
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Jun 15, 2014 03:58
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Cojawfee posted:The Vorta were primitive primates when the founders discovered them. Is it actually a piece of dialog in the show when Weyoun explains how the Vorta came to be, and says his people used to resemble lemurs? I've always pictured them as lemurs, regardless.
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Jun 15, 2014 04:22
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Is it actually a piece of dialog in the show when Weyoun explains how the Vorta came to be, and says his people used to resemble lemurs? I've always pictured them as lemurs, regardless. Not lemurs, he just says ape-like forest dwellers. The story Weyoun tells could be the truth, but I'd like to believe that the Founders created the story to give the Vorta a sense that there's a deep connection between the two races. The Founders don't really care about the Vorta, they wouldn't put themselves in harm's way to help them. Sure, they're clones, but when one dies it's not "how could you kill such a noble creature?" It's "he was a good servant, let's wake the next one up." The Founders can be emotional and it seems like they would have an ancient collective memory. If the story were true, when a Vorta died you think they'd react a little more than "well, that's a pain." edit: The episode where Weyoun tells the story is Treachery, Faith, and the Great River Hip-Hoptimus Rhyme fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Jun 15, 2014 |
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Jun 15, 2014 04:55
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The original plan for the Dominion was for them to be a lot more of an evil version of the Federation, where their ships were crewed by a bunch of their different member races, only they were all conscripted to be there. But then time and budget got in the way and they didn't have time to design all those aliens, so we just got the Vorta and Jem'Hadar.
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